| Author |
Message |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:48 am: | |
The following link is to the before and after photos of DML:
http://photos.yahoo.com/drivingmisslazy2000
Richard |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (63.138.84.5)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:35 pm: | |
DML,
Don't know if you know that I am a firefighter in my real life.
I see this result all the time but it hits home very hard when a firefighter sees this happen to "family".
I can only say I believe in God and I pray thanks He spared life. I've seen the alternative.
Again, if there is anything at any time that I can do for you, you have only to ask.
My best.
Ian
www.busnut.com |
Bob Wood so cal (4.63.41.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:51 pm: | |
wow, those photos really make me sad. so sorry that happened to you. i'm glad you and your family weren't hurt. all the best richard, bob |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad) (204.193.117.66)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:57 pm: | |
Richard,
As I@n said, being a firefighter/paramedic, I see this all too often, but it certainly hits much harder when it happens to someone I consider a friend. Thankful that no one was in the coach at the time. I shudder to think "what could have been". Would you mind it I print some of these photos to use at Bussin' 2004 for a seminar on fire safety? Thanks in advance, Jack |
Jeff (172.146.170.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 1:08 pm: | |
Hey, fire guys,
What would Richard look for to determine what actually went wrong to cause the fire? Even with all the fire damage, shouldn't there be some evidence of arcing if the problem was failure of the wiring? (melting or "welding" of the wire and heater box?) Would really like to know if the failure was inside, outside, or at the connection of the wires to the heater.
Jeff |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Thanks everybody for you expressions of sympathy. It has been a terrible loss for us that words can not really express.
Thanks I@N. We really are in a quandry as to what we will do. We looked for literally years before we found DML and we are now at the age and financial situation where I do not think we could find anything that would satisfy us.
Jack, no problem on using the photos. If you need anything else, let me know. If you need higher resolution to blow up, let me know. They are in the computer.
Jeff, I also would like to know what exactly happened. I have not really examined anything real close until the adjuster shows up.
Richard |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
I can't get to the pics. I wonder what's up with that?
Gary |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 3:36 pm: | |
Gary, I just tried it and it works. Might try copying and pasting.
Richard |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
It's weird.
I actually get to the yahoo page, it't the links to the before and after pages I can't get to.
Bizarre. |
NEO/Russ (66.83.53.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 3:51 pm: | |
Richard,
I came into the story late, and wanted to add my condolences to your saga. What has happened to you is a fear anyone who creates a labor of love faces. Along with so many, I share the joy that no one was injured which outweighs the loss of material things, but that loss still weighs heavy. I had a similiar fate with a race car fabrication shop and all the contents that I had built once upon a time.
BTW, I can pull up Yahoo and can't open the photos either and I tried cutting and pasting the shortcut.
Best of luck to whatever direction you head. Your additions to these boards has always been level headed and wise. I hope we don't loose you.
Russ |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
I can't get into them either. |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.41)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
I can see the before and after folders but get a "bad response from server" error when trying to access the folders. Maybe the bandwidth allowance (assuming there is one) on his folders has been exceeded. Might want to try again later.
Scott |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:31 pm: | |
Can anyone get into the pictures?
Richard |
David Anderson (168.215.176.173)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:41 pm: | |
Richard,
I couldn't access them at noon on Tuesday, but at 4:30pm CST, I could see all of them.
It was a really hot fire.
David Anderson |
Craig S (68.218.67.128)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
DML,
It's about 6PM EST and I can get to them. How heart wrenching.
Craig S |
TWO DOGS (66.90.214.197)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | |
I get them.....almost makes ya' want to throw-up...what a shame ! |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
I can get to them now.
Who knows the mysteries of Yahoo.
Gary |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
Now that I've seen them I wish I hadn't looked.
Gary |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 6:23 pm: | |
I am able to view them now. Wow, what a bummer. Sure must have been hot and smokey in there.
Scott |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.57)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:59 pm: | |
Richard, I don't think I've ever seen myrtlewood before. It certainly ain't something you get at HomeDespot. You know, I used to have a cheapie $20 heater under the desk to keep the tootsies warm. Every now and then the fan wouldn't start when the unit was turned on, but the heating elements got red hot. Without the fan blowing air through, the heating elements got _way_ too hot and before long, you could smell things melting inside. Thing never did shut off, and left alone would probably have caught on fire. Maybe something similar in this case.
Maybe DML performed sipiku (sp?) in order to not have to search for a new master? |
Tom Hamrick (Tomhamrick) (68.210.110.131)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 8:22 pm: | |
Richard,
I am so sorry about your loss of such a beautiful Eagle. I know you are devastated.
I was able to pull up the pictures this afternoon, and was halfway through looking at the after pictures when I could not see anymore. I still cannot see them tonight.
Tom Hamrick |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.55.161)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 8:34 pm: | |
Hi Jeff,
I've tried starting to answer your question several times and noticed that even a simple answer had the beginnings of being a novel! I think Jack will agree when I say that there are too many causes of fire to have the layperson start to figure it out. Full time Fire Prevention personnel put years of experience to work trying to do just that and still sometimes come up empty handed.
Suffice it to say that "accidental" is not a word that the fire service uses to trivialize the cause of any particular fire, but it is a good and necessary "catch-all" phrase that is used after arson has been ruled out, but nothing precise can be pointed to.
Extensive investigations are seldom undertaken by fire departments or the Fire Marshal's Office unless there is a "major dollar loss". The definition of major dollar loss is not related to either personal financial or emotional loss. In the fire service where I work, major dollar loss starts at about $250,000.
To answer one of your questions directly, "shouldn't there be some some evidence of arcing if the problem was failure of the wiring... melting or welding of the wire and heater box?". The answer to that is yes. But that determination can sometimes only be found in the lab.
To find where the fire may have started, Richard can search until he finds the area of the coach that has the greatest charring. A "V" pattern may exist on the wall or across the ceiling. The pointy end of the "V" may point to the "seat" of the fire. If it can be determined that something electrical sat at about that location, then it is pretty safe to presume that it was an electrical fire. But it may have started from beneath the coach as it did with Dave Galey's Prevost fire. A leak in the exhaust header heated insulation behind a metal shield on the side of the bus, in that case. Galey's bus was similarly destroyed.
But vehicles of all kinds, including buses, are made with more and more synthetic materials - all of which burn much hotter than normal combustibles. But synthetics burn much less efficiently, as well, so there is always a ton of carbon by-product. That's why the whole interior of the coach is blackened. There may be absolutely nothing left to look at back there... not even ashes any more!
As is always the case, safety is key. Fire prevention cannot be over-emphasized. Jack will speak to those topics very prolifically at Busin' 2004. I hope he will have a tape recorder sitting in front of him while he lectures. I would love to put his dialogue into an Article of Interest (hint, hint, brother!)
Dealing with the personal loss is often more devastating than the actual fire. I am so very happy that the Bowyer family is being shown this outpouring of personal support by the bus conversion hobby family. You just can't buy that kind of insurance!
Regards,
Ian
www.busnut.com |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 8:57 pm: | |
In my boats, both of them have incredibly expensive Engine room fire suppression systems.
Now I'm not suggesting everyone go out and plumb their coaches for Halon or anything, but what is out there to protect our investments?
I will have several Dry and Co2 extinguishers on the bus, but how about smoke alarms, and such?
I never gave it much thought before.
Gary |
Frank Allen (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 8:59 pm: | |
i cant get them either
Frank Allen |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:56 pm: | |
I had an adjuster and an investigator last Friday. The adjuster wrote up the incident, but was not qualified on vehicles like this. He says an out of state adjuster will be here this week sometime.
Both of these people that visited positively identified the location of the start of the fire in the extreme back corner on the passenger side beside the bed. . At that location, the end table is completely missing and part of the cabinet above it. As well as the mattresses and bedding. There does not appear to be any burning of material in any other location. Just indications of extreme heat, such as refrigerator doors melting and TV plastic frames melting. No evidence that I could see of actual flames or flame damage. The ceiling above the end table is extremely smoke damaged, but no indication of actual combustion.
An electric heater was mounted in the base of the end table beside the bed.
I suspect Chuck is right and that a fan failed in the heater and that there is no over temperature protection in the heaters.
Most have never seen Myrtle wood. It only is found in Oregon, Washington and the holy land. Most, if not all, is now in national forests. The Oregon timber man that had the coach built saved trees for several years to get enough lumber. It is similar to the rhododendron bush/tree and almost impossible to get a six foot board. It is primarily used for wood turnings. It would be impossible to duplicate the bus now due to absolutely no availability of the wood required.
Everyone make sure you have smoke alarms and test them religiously. If the three generations of my family was in the bus when this occurred, I seriously doubt they would have escaped unless a fire alarm had been installed and actually worked. Fortunately, we did not need to find this out.
I really do not understand about the pictures. Some people can get them and some can not. I will be happy to email them if anyone desires.
Richard |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:05 pm: | |
As someone who grew up in Oregon, within a hundred miles of the most prolific Myrtlewood stands are, I know how difficult it was to come up with the material for that DML.
I have a couple of pieces stacked away for projects, Pistol Grips, etc. two pieces 3/8" thick, say 10" X 8" cost me ten bucks.
DML's Cabinets had $5,000 - 10,000 worth of raw material alone.
I did not know it grew in Washington though.
I think smoke alarms connected to an outside alarm, like a bilge alarm on boats just became part of my design.
Gary |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:07 pm: | |
Oh--My guess on the Pics is that Yahoo limits the number of viewers. When one or some number of us are in, the rest are locked out.
They would do this to preserve bandwidth.
Just a guess.
Gary |
Bob Wood so cal (4.63.41.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 3:12 am: | |
you are probably right, i get the photos fine, but it is late at night now. And you are right, those cabinets were SWEET and for all purposes irreplaceable. only good thing is no one got hurt. DML was a damn fine looking coach. i will never have one so nice... be well and happy trails, bob |
FAST FRED (65.150.247.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 5:57 am: | |
"I suspect Chuck is right and that a fan failed in the heater and that there is no over temperature protection in the heaters.
"
It might be wise for all the folks that have electric heaters of any type to either block them off with a hunk of ply to see if they have an overtemp device , and shut down.
Or tip them on their face (portable) and see what happens.
The cheapos for $11.00 from True Value will usually start a fire , the $50 from Home Depot for contractors usually have both tip over and overheat installed.
There is a lot of work and thought in most coaches ,selling it to the insurance co precludes financial loss , but not the empty feeling of a dead traveling companion.
FAST FRED |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 8:06 am: | |
Gary, according to the word from the multitude of Myrtlewood arts and craft shops along 101, the trees are concentrated in the northern Oregon/Southern Washington area. Primarily in Oregon however, I believe.
One of the shop owners that looked at the bus thought that the value of the wood exceeded the cost of the bus! LOL
Richard |
john wood (206.252.250.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
Gearhead;
Gotta admit if i was out on the open ocean, I'd have an expensive fire supresion system too! Guess with a bus, if it burns, you just step out onto terra firma. Just hope mine does not go up while i sleep. Even if i do have alarms. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:53 pm: | |
Hi Richard,
I think they under estimate the value of a premium coach. Not to take anything away from the gorgeous Myrtlewood, but a fine servicable coach is worth quite a bit of change. What is your policy--Full replacement? Please watch these guys like a hawk.
John--I'd have my CO system in place to keep it from burning at the dock too.
There has been many posting about how fortunate it was that nobody was in DML. I submit that if anyone was in DML ther would be no real damage, or minimal at worst.
To elaborate on what I posted above about bilge alarms. For those of you who are not aware, in larger boats like mine, you install a float switch a few inches higher than the bilge pump switch, that triggers when a leak exceeds what a bilge pump can remove.
These are connected to a small siren/horn/something annoying that is very loud. These will wake the dead and anyone sleeping in the marina.
I am going to connect one to a smoke alarm in my bus.
Gary |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad) (207.30.189.109)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
I have to disagree that there would have been no or minimal damage if they had been in the bus. With all the synthetic products used today and a smoldering fire, the toxic gases can easily kill you before you wake up to the smell of smoke. This is why smoke detectors are so important. Most house fire victims die of smoke/toxic gas inhalation, not from flames. Jack Conrad |
Craig Craddock (66.229.90.204)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
Richard
I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your bus. It was a bueatiful work of art. I had a major loss over three years ago and had to move out of my house. It is still not finished because of insurance interference. The following are just my own personnal opinions and experiences. Watch every thing you say to the adjuster. They are not just making conversation they are trying to win you over and they have a reason for almost all of the questions they are asking you. At the time you may not know why. They are not your friend their job is to pay you the absoluete mininiun that they can and make you go away. So far I have been paid less then 50 cent on the dollar. My policy is full replacement cost no depreciation with building code up grades and I was over insured for value. I could write a book on all of their bad faith practices. The rest of the world calls the same thing "FRAUD". Please do your home work and be very careful what you tell them. We think we know what we are doing but they are trained professionals in their field and that is not to your advantage. If you bought the bus back for salvage value and removed the wood and sold it before selling the rest could you recover a lot more of your loss. I would think a lot of the wood can be salvaged even some of the damaged could be planed to good material. Just a thought I do not mean you personnally removing it. Emotionally I think that would only make things worse. This is just a wild idea that you might be able to recover the max. dollars on your loss. I do under stand some of the emotional roller coaster. My difference is mine is being rebuilt. This will still not make up for the loss of three years my life or all of the fighting with the insurance company. The sad thing is the attonary bills are more then if I had not called the insurance company and just fixed it my self, but who could have guessed the future. This does not count a contuined fight of a unknown period of time. Even if you were thinking about selling Driving Miss Lazy this is not the same thing you did not get to make that difficult choice to sell her. Please consult a expert before you agree to anything with the insurance company.
Good luck and my best wishes.
Craig C |
mark (66.43.13.95)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 9:12 pm: | |
HI, Craig
Who is your insurance company, if you don't mind saying?
Sounds like they put you through the ringer.
I guess we never really know how good of coverage we each have until the need arises.
thanks
mark |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 9:17 pm: | |
My experience is similar to Craig's but the stakes were not as high.
Gary |
Craig Craddock (66.229.90.204)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:18 pm: | |
Mark
At this point I should not answer your question. I should not bad mouth my company as much as I would like to stand on top of the Empire State Bldg. and yell it to anyone that would listen. I will say it is one of the three largest insurers in the United States. Many people believe all of the major companies are playing similiar games. That part of my above statement is their normal course of business.
Enclosed is a site you must remember that the president of this site has been wronged by her company which is not my company and she has a real bone to pick. There is some good information there. Some new stuff in regards to the recient California fires you must remember what is stated in that claims information section may not be true in your state. Each state has it own regulations. It is interesting about 1947 for I think only one year the feds. controlled the entire industry. I have heard that throught intense lobbying that they got this back to the state level again. I will stop here because I am way off of the topic of this board. http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org |
Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:23 am: | |
Hi Craig,
I'll bet your insurance company is the good hands people. Don't even ask about my experience with them.
Thanks, Sam Sperbeck
La Crescent, MN |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
Has anyone had experience with a claim with Progressive?
Due to legal ramifications, you might not want to spell out the details, but I would be interested in knowing how they operate before I go to see them tomorrow.
Richard |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.217.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Richard,
Having dealt with Loss Adjusters more times than I wish to, I do have the claim to fame that they did not win against me.
The first rule is NOT to make any hasty decisions. Whatever they offer you, unless it is the maximum amount on the policy (100% payout), tell them you must think it over before signing.
Secondly, they will up their offer, no matter what they say.
Thirdly, do not offer any more info than you need to establish the value. If you are not satisfied with their offer, then tell them you wish to think about it and get a second valuation, and then leave their office.
They ran one claim to the last day of the Statutes of Limitations before I had to file for Court action, before they would actually confirm the agreed settlement in writing.
It is a game of poker that you are entering into. I have had good luck against them and each time, I took my time and made sure I had all the armaments I needed. When they would run something down, I would counter with either different qualified info or another good point. Just do not get emotional over the bus. Hard as it is to say, it is nolonger your bus, it is a piece of merchandise that the two of you are bargaining over.
As stated before, you may well be better off to buy back the salvage, but only offer this after the settlement price is agreed and then wrangle on what the bus is now worth. Of course, now you have to change tactics as you have just praised the bus up to get the best payout, now you have to run it down the get the best salvage price. Try not to run down too many of the parts you just praised up....... LOL.
For example, the value and difficulty of replacing the wood can be used for both sides of the deal.
Bottom line is that they will not pay out anymore than the policy is written for.
It is much a case of playing it by ear and very hard for someone to advise you over the internet, but as I said before, don't sign anything without really thinking it through.
If you need any more help, then feel free to contact me off Group.
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
As always, a well thought out post by Peter.
Richard, I will be very interested in your results, I am insured (To the Gills) with progressive.
Gary |