| Author | Message | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 486 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 68.3.239.2 Rating: N/A |
Dallas made that statement four posts lower,and I am wondering how members here feel if there were a choice between two similar busses, one computer controlled and the other mechanical MUI. Engine /transmission 6v92ta and 740/748 Joe. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1272 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.183.81  Rating: N/A |
NO COMPUTER IF YOU HAVE TO WORK ON IT!! LOL I hate computers and the only reason I post here and do computors is because I have to LOL LOL Gomer | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 359 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.211.219.113 Rating: N/A |
68 MCI 5A, 59 Ford PU, 62 Triumph TR4, 87 Jeep Wagoneer. Only the jeep has a computer, guess how i would vote. :>) | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
I purposely stayed away from the puter engine and wanted MUI..... the reason is because I wanted to run veggie oil and what I was consistently told is that it goes better with MUI but confuses the sensors on the puter fuel stuff... | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2048 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.175.252  Rating: N/A |
For a busnut, mechanical engine lets you ignore your wiring. Electronic engine/transmission requires good wiring. Busnuts of the future electronic coaches will be refurbishing the wiring instead of doing roof raises? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 453 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
I had no problem running 3000' of new wireing to put in a 6V92TA DDECIV and V731 ATEC. It took a lot of reading books to understand the electronics but once you understand how it all works there is no problem with it. My friend Joe didn't want to go the electronic route but after finding how hard it is to change an electronic engine to an mui one he went for the electronic one and hasn't looked back. That was 5 years ago and no problem on either engine. They are nothing to be afraid of and actually quite simple once you read up on the workings. Bill | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 443 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.197.166  Rating: N/A |
Bill, I'm not afraid of computers, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have paid a lot of my bills for many years. I do not however want a DDEC in my bus. there's nothing like being stuck in the middle of the road waiting for a wrecker because the ECM took a siesta. Just wait, if it hasn't happened yet, it will. I also want points plugs, condenser, rotor cap and distributor cap on my gas engines. All this is because with most of the low tech systems, if it breaks down, I can fix it, or at least do some Disney Design to get to a place where I can fix it permanently. Simple is good. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 412 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245  Rating: N/A |
Dallas most simple computer controlled systems are far more reliable than points and condensers. I have 883,000 miles on my bricks Bosh Jetronic. I carry a spare ecm and a fuel pressure relay, for the just in case moment that seems to never happen | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 444 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.197.166 Rating: N/A |
Interestingly, it isn't the reliability I was speaking of, more to the point, which would you rather do.... toss in a set of points and a condenser on the side of the road, or trouble shoot an electronics problem, which could be anything from a bad ground to a toasted ECM. If I have a choice, at least with points, I can hot wire around a switch directly to the battery and be on the way to a safe place. Then again, Points, condenser, rotor, coil, distributor cap: $50 How much is the ECM for a Volvo, VW, Toyota, Ford, GM, Detroit, Cummins, Volvo Bus, Cat, &c? How many questions have you seen on these boards concerning DDEC, ATEC, WTEC, CELECT, CELECT Plus, CAT, Alison, &c? It's all a matter of personal preference. Your mileage may vary, but I have seen a lot of ECM failures over the years, and it's just one more system to go wrong that I don't want. | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 455 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Dal I hear you. I carry the ProLink 9000 with me as well as one of each sensor and a spare programmed ECM plus the tools necessary to do any repair. Not taking any chances you might say. Most of electronic problems are corrosion on contacts so it might take a little time to find but both my friends and my DDEC IV units have new wireing so that generaly isn't an issue. The trouble shooting manual guides you through a proceedure to find almost anything be it a sensor or wireing issue. The only issue in 5 years was a bad throttle position sensor on Joes bus. It was a used throttle from a truck which maybe we shouldn't have used but it only took 15 minutes to repair as I had a TPS with me. If I didn't have the ProLink 9000 with me the red and yellow lights on the dash will read out the code for me and tell me the problem. I understand where you are coming from but seriously once you read and understand how the computer works it isn't anything to be afraid of. DDEC units are not nearly as complicated as a car computer. I got all my books from Ebay before I started installing these engines. Bill | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 446 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.197.166 Rating: N/A |
Bill, I think you are not understanding. I do understand and have worked on automotive and heavy truck computer systems for years. I understand the troubleshooting and the repair procedures. I have also used the Prolink and laptop based diagnostic equipment. I have also owned a small trucking company, and know for a fact that my major repair costs were due to failed electronic engine system components. Again, as I said before, this is personal preference, not due to fear of the computer. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2049 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.91.147.243 Rating: |
ECM failure numbers are over reported and have entered the realm of mythology. They do not fail as often as their detractors suggest. ECM failure is code words for fleece the guy, both in our heavy equipment and our autos. How's the owner know that it isn't? Great way to up-sell the hapless customer. The corrosion in the wiring and connections is disturbed or discovered in the process, or as simple as the concurrent reset or a sensor replacement and voila, it works... and a whole lot of money is made... Then the "bad" take out is rotated to the next guy... claiming that it had to go back as a core so you don't get to take it home. Nature of the business, some other guy gets to see the vehicle next, across the country, if it craps again due to a real problem. Add in the technicians that are covering up the fact they don't know their heads from their a**e*, but mess with it anyway and take your money... Perpetuating this story that ECM's are a high failure point hides this skulduggery. The number of ECM's returned to the manufacturer and tested good is shocking, and many of those are being turned in from fleet shops, working on their own equipment! Pricks who prick wires are the biggest problem, allowing the wires to corrode. That's why wire refurbishment will be the future of busnut conversions. Dallas, carry on loving the old technology, but be careful that you don't go fitting a profile... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 447 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.197.166 Rating: N/A |
I agree BW, I can think of only one actual failed ECM in a truck I owned, and that was mostly due to the problem of it overheating when the electrical junction panel it was next to caught fire. I have though, had numerous crank sensors, cam sensors, TPS, coolant level sensors, MAP, MAF, oil pressure sensors, temperature sensors, fail. Causing lost time, lost money, lost revenue. Again, thankyouverymuch, I will keep my 75 year old diesel technology and my 110 year old gas engine technology. If it works, don't fix it. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 414 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245 Rating: |
Dallas when I am in Uruguay I ride my horse | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 607 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.128.245  Rating: |
....and it rocks back & forth | ||
| latvia-69 (Latvia69)
Registered Member Username: Latvia69 Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 97.104.218.18 Rating: |
great information up to dallas!!!!!after that seems like a no brainer | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Dal I didn't meen to insult you. It was the orginal post to see which engine would I choose. The MUI is easy to repair at the side of the road but if you understand the electronic one it is also easy to fix. You understand the DDEC system but most busnuts don't, so are afraid to get involved with it. I like mine but also carry the neccessary sensors, books and test equipment as well. Just in case. Bill | ||
| Donald P H (Eagle19952)
Registered Member Username: Eagle19952 Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.202.86.163 Rating: N/A |
I like mine but also carry the neccessary sensors, books and test equipment as well. Just in case. which adds a few thousand $$ to the experiance,i go with the straight 100 year old tech too. To each his own  | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.217.47.28  Rating: |
Lots of people chiming in on this topic... I might as well chime in as well. With a mechanical Diesel engine, you only need air and fuel for the thing to run. The only time you NEED electrics is to start it... And of course for aux stuff like lights. Computers introduce a whole new aspect to the equasion. No longer does your engine just need air and fuel to run, now it requires a steady stream of electrons and data from sensors that are often decades old and on the verge of failing... Ask me, I should know. My 60 footer was a DDEC-II computer controlled engine... *ANY* sensor fault, and the computer would automatically shut everything down, regardless of whether there was actually a problem or not. On my 1100 mile trip home with the 60 footer, I had numerous sensor faults, all causing shutdown events... And let me tell you... Having your engine shut down in the middle of a busy 5 lane intersection when there isn't really any problem at all... Is not fun. That's why, after the 60 footer... I decided to NEVER have another computer controlled bus again. If I could, I'd never have a computer controlled vehicle of any kind, but of course, that's getting quite difficult these days. So, my opinion? Stick with the mechanical engines. Computers, while great for business, just don't belong in engines in our world. They introduce too many unknowns and too many points of failure. The (MINOR!) gains in fuel economy and power simply aren't worth the upkeep and expense of computerized engine control systems for a privately owned and operated DIESEL powered buses. Not to mention the specialized equipment and knowledge to diagnose and repair the faults in the first place... Just my 2 cents on the topic... -Mac EDIT: Also, as to the reliability of the ECM itself... I've only *EVER* seen *ONE* ECM actually fail. 99.9% of the time, the problem is nearly always a broken wire, corroded connections, broken connections, ground faults and so on and so on... In the ONE instance I actually diagnosed a failed ECU, the vehicle was a Ford Fiesta (I purchased for $100 as a project car some years back), and the failure was caused by the voltage regulator on the alternator. On testing, the alternator was pumping out somewhere around 50v instead of the ~13v it should have been... So, of course, the ECU released copious amounts of magic smoke. That's the only ECU failure I've ever seen that required complete replacement of the unit. I will say that I had an old Datsun 280ZX that also showed symptoms of ECU failure... But after ripping the thing apart, I discovered several cold solder joints. I simply applied new solder, cleaned everything up and put it back in... Away she went, so I don't consider that one an ECU failure, just a "tired" ECU. Cheers! (Message edited by 91flyer on March 15, 2011) | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 617 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120  Rating: N/A |
I'm with Dallas, I have two MUI buses, 4 ECU cars. All 4 cars present repeated "Check Engine" lights with one of the cars (Chrysler Sebring) dropping cylinders to the poiint it barely ran. Problem? It had a couple of "bad" plug wires (68K original miles) and the computer was shutting off the fuel injectors to keep the exhaust within pollution specs. The MUI bus engines have never left me anywhere and never created secondary running problems trying to keep the exhaust clean! Another car, VW Jetta has an impact sensor in the dashboard cluster. If you are towing the car and some ice comes off your bus & hits the windshield of the Jetta, it disables the engine from starting, a theft deterrant. This is BS in a car that has a chip in the key. How's anybody gonna take it without the key? Personally, if bad guys hit my wife's car with a bat, I want the car to start so she can escape or run them over. (MY wife would run them over, then shoot them!) BTW, we had to be tow the car to the VW Dealer & have it reset at the cost of $214. I could go on for several hours. Guess which I vote for? | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 418 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245 Rating: N/A |
I don't believe in that new fangled horseless carrige thing. I will stick with my buckboard and horse or mule. sshhheeessh. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 419 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245 Rating: N/A |
I don't believe in that new fangled horseless carrige thing. I will stick with my buckboard and horse or mule. sshhheeessh. | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 454 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
Could you say that again, I didn't understand? | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 420 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245 Rating: N/A |
Len it's been awhile since someone did a double post for Dallas. you remember he likes it when we do that. | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 449 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 67.141.73.164 Rating: N/A |
That's the way, Unh-Hunh, Unh-Hunh! I Like It! Unh-Hunh, Unh-Hunh! *KC and the Sunshine Band | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 450 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 67.141.73.164 Rating: N/A |
Darn, It wouldn't let me post it twice with this message: Message Already Posted Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile You have already posted a message to this discussion which: * Was posted within the last two minutes * Was posted by you * Was the same as the message you entered before You probably hit the button twice. | ||
| George Martinez (Foohorse)
Registered Member Username: Foohorse Post Number: 422 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 72.211.128.245 Rating: N/A |
Dallas it's ok buddy go lie down take some of Marvin's meds and all will be well. |
