| Author |
Message |
Timnvt (165.121.130.215)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
Hi folks,
I’m inquiring for info on Weco engine pre-heater. Having asked on the MAK board I know this may be a sore subject to some as I understand there was a quantity of these sold without installation instructions.
However, there was a post I found in the archives by Doug Chapman back in April of 2001 as he was inquiring about hooking one of these up. Does anyone know if Doug is available and whether he succeeded in getting his to work?
Geoff, if you could share with me whatever progress you made with yours, I’m game for taking up the challenge to get these to work.
My point in posting here rather than MAK is the archive feature which may serve to help others as there must be other units floating around.
I agree the smart choice is to get a Webasto or Proheat and forget about the Weco. However, since I have one in my hand, and I’m sure others do as well, I have a hard time believing these units can’t be made to work having an Aerospace company’s name on them. We just need the right information to get them to work.
On the other hand, if they really are junk (and possibly dangerous if not installed properly) then wouldn’t it be in the manufacturers best interest to RECALL these units so they don’t get hung for liability having distributed a defective product without proper instructions?
Somebody somewhere must know how these units are supposed to work. Doug Chapman’s original post is titled as military heater. They are green. Anyone with military service experience know anything about these Weco’s?
I’d appreciate any help you can give on how to wire and fire these heaters or where to pursue finding the needed info.
Thanks,
Tim. |
jmaxwell (66.81.62.214)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 7:12 pm: | |
Tim: Did u ever consider that it just might be more profitable to go into bankruptcy than fix or replace faulty products? I have no knowledge of these units, but all the negatives I read on your thread on the other board tells me that I may be better off for my ignorance of them. I am familiar with the Webasto and the Pro-heat. Of the 2, I would choose Webasto. I have only seen the ProHeat units on tractor/trailer units but they were combo units and were noisy, even on the heating mode. |
timnvt (165.121.146.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 8:03 pm: | |
Jim, I'm right there ready to can the unit and continue shopping for an alternative.
However, the negativity expressed hasn't presented a reason why I should. I don’t think I’m being bull headed here. It's just that there hasn't been one problem presented with the units other than the lack of installation instructions and manufacturer support. Obstacles to be sure, but not faulty of itself. It’s more like negligence. Not that that comforts me.
I'm asking for help to operate it as close as possible to the way it was designed to. The assumption is fair, I would think, that a new unit ought to work as designed if manufactured correctly and operated accordingly.
The question is, How is it supposed to be hooked up?
I'm happy to hear how many folks have tried and failed as well. But that of itself is no reason to throw away a $1000 unit. Rather, their attempts should be used to better learn how to do it right.
Lets have Constructivism guys, not defeatism.
Tim. |
Phil Dumpster (12.230.214.167)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
If the unit was built for a military contract, then there is no liability problem for the company.
This would also indicate why instructions for installation are not available. It was probably classified in category "H7" or "HX" when it was sold, indicating it was sold for scrap value, not as a functional unit. It would also indicate why Weco has disowned the unit and won't even acknowledge ever making it.
If these new military units ended up in civilian hands in brand new condition, doesn't that tell you something? Even the military could never get them to work, and they have, compared to you, almost limitless resources.
Consider yourself lucky that it was thrown in as excess ballast with your bus and that you didn't actually lay out cold hard cash for it. |
bruceknee (12.76.101.69)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 11:13 pm: | |
If you decide to go in a different direction, there ars 30,000 btu proheat units for $300 at Nimco |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad) (206.251.199.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 8:29 am: | |
As I recall, a few of those that actually got them to run on a bench, found problems with leaking seals. |
timnvt (165.121.141.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
Hi Jack, Thanks for that info. Who knows how old these things are. It's not surprising there could be deterioration of things like seals. I'll keep that in mind. It is good to hear that some folks did get them to run, so that's a positive.
Along that note, I would be happy to relieve anyone of their Weco engine preheater who is not expecting to ever use it.
Unfortunately, I am not able to attend the function in Arcadia, as I will be traveling with my family during that time. However, I do plan to pass by the vicinity of the rally and could plan to stop and retrieve anyones castaway Wecos during or after the rally.
Since they are considered by some to be useless junk, I would like to offer scrap price and then some for the first 10 intact units. Scrap price only for all units thereafter.
I won't hurt to have a few spares around for parts as well as experimental units.
If anyone is willing to help my cause, please email me Mci5nvt@together.net to make arrangements.
Thanks,
Tim. |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad) (206.251.199.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
Tim,
If you get a chance to stop by the rally, Saturday, Jan. 3 would be the best day. The Swap Meet/Flea Market is Saturday afternoon. If you cannot make it to the rally and make arrangements to have anything left here for you, I will be glad to store it at my place until you stop by to pick it up. Just let me know,Jack |
BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.195.226)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
Okay, I am not understanding something about this...
You mean to tell me that a some point WECO produces a heater, that their research and development of said heater is on the military's dime, and it will not work?
Alright, I suppose stranger things have happened.
But then these heaters are then sold to civilians?
By who? The military? By WECO?
I will say this, fuel fired heaters while they can be scary to tamper with, are generally pretty simplistic.
I for one would love to try and get one running on a test stand.
They can be tempermental, but it could be as easy to repair as realinging an igniter, changing the fuel spray nozzle, or boosting the pressure in the fuel delivery system.
Brian |
timnvt (165.121.131.224)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
Thanks Jack. If I have any takers on my offer I'll let you know. I'm gonna try to make the swap meet, but the family will have to work with me on this.
Brian, will you be going to the rally and where are you located. Maybe we can team up on this.
To All, I've evidently been posting a temporarily bogus email address. Until it gets working again (tomorrow) this address should work busn9lives@together.net
Thanks,
Tim.
Tim. |
Phil Dumpster (12.230.214.167)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 7:08 pm: | |
"You mean to tell me that a some point WECO produces a heater, that their research and development of said heater is on the military's dime, and it will not work?"
It's called a sweetheart appropriation, perhaps some congressman attached it to a routine spending bill as a means of repaying a contributor to his/her re-election. I don't mean to be cynical, but it happens all the time.
"But then these heaters are then sold to civilians? By who? The military? By WECO?"
From what I've been able to find out, Weco never sold these on the retail market. The ones that did end up in civilian hands got there through mulitary surplus channels.
Why they ended up in surplus channels is anyone's guess. Perhaps the military found them unsuitable, or the program they were purchased for was cancelled. The military has been known to surplus new material that is perfectly servicable but the requirements have changed since purchase. Boeing does the same thing via their surplus store.
For what it's worth, Dickinson Marine makes an oil fired heater which can be fitted with a water coil in the exhaust stack, and it mounts inside the boat(coach in our case) and doubles as a fireplace, and a nice looking one at that. Best of all, it's only $450 and it's an out-of-the-box proven-to-work solution.
The problems with the Weco sound more like design faults. If Geoff couldn't get one to work well, so much so that he went the Webasto route, then you can assume the unit has some serious problems.
To get one working would require a bit of reverse engineering, and someone who is capable of doing that is not the kind of person who is going to persist in asking how to hook the unit up in the first place.
Given all of the work required to disassemble, design new parts, make said parts plus seals plus whateve electronics needed if you want to automate its operation, you'd end up expending much more time, money and brains doing that than if you were to buy another solution off the shelf. Further, after expending all of that time, money, and brains, you end up with a unique unit. If you want to sell your coach later, or if the unit breaks far from home, it will cause you problems.
But, hey, to each his own. This hobby is plenty big enough to do it your way.
A word of caution, though - whenever you are dealing with an apparatus that uses fire to achieve its function, a malfunction can cause that fire to spread to unintended combustibles. A number of nice coaches have burned over the years, and messing with stuff like this in your coach might increase the odds of your coach ending up on that unfortunate list.
For me, I'm going the Dickinson Marine route even though it's a very old fashioned manual operation, mainly because it also doubles as a fireplace. I also live about 30 miles away from their US distribution warehouse. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.117.116)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Tim, unfortunately I'm not going to be attending the rally.
I'm in beautiful sunny Las Vegas, if you need any help in getting your heater going, I'll be happy to help any way as I can.
Brian |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.117.116)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 12:01 am: | |
Phil, I might be more inclined to believe that these heaters were part of a program that was cancelled, in fact, that makes a lot of sense.
And who expects a surplus part to come with all it's paperwork?
While it is not unheard of that a faulty piece of equipment is produced and somehow makes it's way to the general public, it is far more believable that a finicky piece of equipment with no paperwork at all has gotten into the hands of people that have no way of bench testing that equipment.
Perhaps they don't work, but let's say it's because the air gap between the igniter and ground is too large... In that case it will never work, not without being tweaked, and thus becomes labled as junk.
And while it IS possible that the design has inherent flaws, I haven't heard enough to justify that assumtion.
I feel certain that given the the right financial incentive, (Tim got his heater free) I'd surely try to figure out how to make it work, and just as surely, I'd do just as Tim has done; ask if someone has gotten one to work, and how he did so.
It may need to be reverse engineered as you suggest, but I would have to prove that to myself to accept it.
I do agree with your caution as to playing with fire, no one wants to get burned while doing so, but careful observation, meticulous attention to detail, as well as thorough bench testing with an extended run up once the heater is working, ought to render a relatively safe device.
Brian |
Mike (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
Brian, I am also in Las Vegas and have one of the units and original wiring diagram for this unit. I would like to help and have space to work available. Give me a call, at least you can laugh at my half way completed Eagle. The more you do on these things the list gets longer. LOL
Mike
702 –523-9345 |
Timnvt (165.121.128.99)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:06 pm: | |
Mike, What a welcome you are to this discussion.
What are the chances you could copy your wiring diagram and email, fax or snail mail it to me?
Just to be sure we are talking about the same heater, there is a picture of one for sale on Pacific Marine Exchange http://www.pacificmarine.com/11195-490.html
Have you ever tried firing your heater? Also, Do your instructions mention anything about the required fuel pressure?
Sure would be nice to get a complete copy of the installation instructions if you have them.
You can email me at busn9lives@together.net
Thanks,
Tim. |
Mike (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
Hi Tim, yes I have the installation instructions. However they are on one page, a black sheet metal background with silver letters. Also it will take a ”McGiver” to read it. I will do the best I can to photo it with a digital and Email you. It also came with several pre-wired plugs that appear to go to something else? Who knows if it will work, but it’s to cold even in Vegas to work out side on the bus. So lets give it a shot.
Mike |
timnvt (165.121.128.99)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
Great!
Mike, if you end up with more than one picture, could you send them individually, each in a separate email attachment so they will download easier. busn9lives@together.net
Thanks again!
Tim. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:52 pm: | |
If you guys get a burner started, you may be able to get a furnace man to set the fire. They have the tools to do this work, because they are required for working on modern oil burners.
If I was running some tests, I would check the CO2 of the flue gas. Your unit ought to come out something over 9%. If the CO2 is not high enough, the flue gas will be very hot for the size of fire that you are running.
They can also test for smoke and prove that it is running clean.
Good luck!
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 2:13 pm: | |
Mike, where about in town are you? I'd love to come check out your Eagle, doubt if I'd be laughing much, since what I have is hardly more than a shell at this point, but we might share some info at least!
Brian |
Mike (198.81.26.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi Brian, I am in Henderson off Lake Mead Dr.
Give me a call and I will explane how to get here. I keep my cell on. 702-523-9345
Mike |
timnvt (165.121.141.252)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:16 pm: | |
Hi Mike,
I got the picture of the installation instructions. It took quite a while to download, as we do not have high speed internet.
If you would, could you send another pic of the top half of the page? It has a lot of glare on it making it hard to read?
According to the instructions, there appears to be two wiring harnesses, a heater control box, and a relay box involved in the installation in addition to the heater itself. As per instruction:
6. Remove cover plate from control panel and install heater control box. Install short wiring harness between control box and relay box. Install other wiring harness between control box and heater.
I am curious whether your heater package includes any of these additional items?
Thanks for sending the instructions. Now if we can find someone with the troubleshooting guide!
Tim. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.219.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 3:17 am: | |
Mike & Brian,
Hi near neighbors, I am in Kingman, actually Golden Valley, just off the 93. If you're ever passing through, feel free to call me and maybe we can visit. You can see how my project is going on.
Peter. |
Mike (198.81.26.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
Hi Tim, I will send some more pics and use WinZip to help the down load speed. The photos are 4 mega pix so you can blow them up very large and still read them. As for the other components I do not have them or part #s, but it makes sense if we can find some the heaters will work.
Mike
Ps Thanks for the invite Peter, maybe when it warms up a bit. (100 is nice LOL)It is 45 today.
MS |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 4:58 pm: | |
Mike, now C'mon buddy, it's BEAUTIFUL out today it's got to be 60 F, I was out in shirt sleeves replacing the heim joints on the blower tensioner!
Peter, I surely will be coming to vist one of these days, hopefully in the spring!
Brian |
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