| Author |
Message |
H3Jim (68.105.103.139)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:01 pm: | |
The easy, reliable and some what pricey solution for controlling a light from multiple locations is a mechanical latching swicth, powered by a 12 v solenoid. $40 a unit from Dick Wright at Wrico, but he has been using them for years with no failures. Since it is mechanical, it only uses power when it is being turned on or off, it does not use any power at any other time. The solenoid actually turns two switches on and off, so one can be used to operate the light in question while the other operates the "on" light in all the remote, lighted switches. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.229.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:33 pm: | |
I was told that I could use a headlight dimmer relay from a VW beetle of a mid 70s era. They are also a latching relay and would be powerful enough to handle 2 headlights, which could be 4 or 5, 21 watt bulbs. Cost I have seen is around $15 on the internet.
Anyone know this for sure? And have a circuit diagram for the relay?
Peter. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 12:44 am: | |
Craig Shepard has an incredible website where he creates his own latching relays and installs them on a circuit board.
Really really sweet
I've already created a bunch of the LED light circuits he made as well.
Brian |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 1:46 am: | |
Now that you mention it, doesn't just about every car made today use some sort of latching relay for Hibeams?
Relay logic melts my brain.
Gary |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.229.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 1:54 am: | |
As long as the hi-low switch returns to the same position like a hi-beam flasher, and therefore acts like a momentary switch, there should be a latching relay somewhere. Would probably be some larger different colored one to the regular ones. I think I have one such animal in a loom we got from and old car. Take me a day or so to dig it out.
Peter. |
Eric Klobas (Eric) (12.208.136.104)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 2:27 am: | |
I know a little about the VW headlight relays. The early ones (before "flash to pass") had 4 terminals. "56" was the power in, 56A went to low beam, and 56B was high beam. The "31b" was grounded just long enough to "flip" the relay to the other side.
The newer relays have added a "30" (battery hot) to give the "flash to pass". On these relays 30 and 56 will both need power to trigger the relay when the "31b" gets grounded.
These relays were only used until around 1976 fot the dasher, rabbit, and beetle. The "modern" VW's have a manual switch in the wiper switch operated by the TS lever. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.229.170)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 3:45 am: | |
Thanks Eric, great info.
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (12.231.173.242)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
this is one of those super-valuable reasons to be on this board.
I was thinking about a few latching relays for various tasks, and I was going to look through standard sources, yes at $30 - $40 a pop.
this is going on my list for the next trip to the junkyard.
Gary |
Cory Dane (66.155.188.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
Hmmm If I am understanding you want to control an interior lite(s) from more than one location, front door and kitchen area???
I did it with simple double pole, douoble throw switches, about a buck and a half each at a surplus store. Can wire in more but I have to look at the drawing to see how it is done but I beleive you can use the same switches, just different wiring solution.
I think that is a much better solution than adding relays.
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cdcdcdcdcdcdcd |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
I havd a few lights that had control from four locations using standard household three way switches.
Richard |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.154.177.203)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 9:47 pm: | |
Jack Conrad set up all his lights on Orange Blossum Special to be operated from multiple locations. I think he used a commercial system that will be cheaper than a lot of latching relays. Wait for his reply before deciding. He is tied up getting ready for Bussin' 2004 right now. |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
ok, I looked up my drawings. I have two switches operating the living room lights and two switches operating the bedroom lights. to do it you need two single pole, double throw switches per room.
Assuming you are using DC
=======================================
simple two switch circuit
0---------------0
(+) ---0 0----(light)--- (-)
0---------------0
sw1 sw2
=======================================
almost simple three way circuit
sw1 sw2 sw3
1----------21\ /-22 sw2(23) 31
/
(+)--2 23 / 24 32--(lt)-(-)
/ \
3-------- --25 \26 sw2 (24)33
Sw1 is connected directly to sw2
Sw1 term 1 to Sw2 term 21
Sw1 term 3 to Sw2 term 25
Sw2 has two ties
term 21 to Term 26
Term 25 to Term 22
Sw2 connects to Sw3 directly
Sw2 Term 23 to Sw3 Term 31
Sw2 Term 24 to Sw3 Term 33
====================================
Oh well this is my attempt at a two and three way drawing. if you need more than three, you just keep adding and wiring the dpdt sw as shown.
You should be able to throw this together quite cheaply with any type of SPST and DPDT switch. There are some nice ones in surplus these days for .50cents to a couple bucks each. any size shape style you can imagine.
Hope I helped
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cdcdcd |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 6:00 pm: | |
Cory, is there any reason you do not want to use standard household three-way and four-way switches, or are you aware that they exist?
I just recently learned about them in a book I received, Home Wiring from the Handyman Club of America. With two three-way switches, you can add as many four-way switches as you desire and controla light from a dozen places if you so desire. A three conducter cable connects them all together. I will try and get the diagram scanned and send to you if you desire.
Richard |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (12.231.173.242)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
I like the idea of the relay.
Only one pair of very small gauge wires can be run to every location where you want a switch.
Actually, if you wire the relay to be ground-activated, you only run one wire.
Gary |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.219)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 6:49 pm: | |
hi Richard
I am aware of the household switches, in fact that is how I learned about two way and three way switching.
I need a large number of switches in a compact space, house hold switches, though sharp looking, would not fit the space.
I Ended up with Lighted "push 'on', push 'off'" panel switches that can gang mount. I have 6 switches that fit on one single switch wall plate and have room for a box.
Space is always the concern. The latching relay is used in some home applications but do cause maintenance problems so I opted away from that concern. I to have some control switches that operate a tiny relay for "specialized" service. I ran no wire smaller than #12 for this type of service as most of the wiring that will cross from street side to curb side goes through the ceiling will be, more or less, permanent.
This is just one way I chose to do it. I have many wiring methods, some include relays, most not.
On a couple of 110vAC lights, I have an ELECTRONIC RELAY, uses 12vDC to trigger on, lack of 12vDC power triggers off. Neet set-up.
Also have a couple for fan control and the air con heat element control. (Some folks feel those air con heat elements are useless but I used the one in the RV one week and it made the air temp uncomfortably hot, so I am installing the thermostat add-on, my own design, for control). All neet stuff folks. I like the toys but go simple where it is allowed. LOL.
There are switches made to operate X10 modules directly from 110v, some modules will operate X10 relays to control different voltage lamps, can have as many an you want throughout the bus. Then you don't have to run any wire. Both kinds of switch plates are available, wired to house wiring and RF(radio frequency). Now these methods have been used in bus conversions with good results. I have some X10 dimming modules installed for timer on/off and dimming operation on my halogen window lights. uses a relay to turn lights on with 12vDC and can use remote to turn on using 110vAC and to dim. guess I have a little of everything.
Just my view point of one way to save a buck.
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cdcdcd |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
Wow. Certainly sounds like it.
I thought I knew quite a bit about wiring and was really suprised to find a four way switch. Don't think I have ever seen one though. I have eight switched ganged in a box just as you enter the coach and I can control any light from that panel, plus several four gang switches thruout the coach. Works great.
Richard |
H3 Jim (68.105.103.139)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 10:14 pm: | |
If you use a relay, not only can you run the very small gauge wire for the controls, but you can also use small gauge wire to light the switch. All the switches for a given light are illuminated when the light is on. Smaller wire, less space for your wire runs, ligher weight, spend on the realy, save on the wire. Reliable too.
I like the sound of Gumpy's solid state latching relays. Have to go give his site another read. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
I totally agree with Jim AND I'm planning on attempting Craig's relay setup myself.
Brian |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
With all the electronic experts on this board I am surprised nobody has used a simple transistor latch. It has all the advantages of the relay, will last almost forever and costs a few cents to build. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.219.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
Stan,
Do tell us more.........
Do you have the diagram/component list?
Can it carry the load of mutliple 12 volt lights?
Does it have a continuous current draw when circuit is on?
Inquiring minds wish to know.
Peter. |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 5:40 pm: | |
I designed and manufactured electronics for many years. In my own busses I used transistor switches that were cheap to build and never gave trouble. However the experts on this board have shot me down on almost every suggestion I have made. People tell me not to be skin skinned. Well, I happen to have thin skin so now I just present ideas and sit back and watch the discussion. |
Cory Dane (66.155.188.92)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 8:34 pm: | |
Well Stan
I feel one tends to protect the methods that they use to be better than another. You must accept that fact that they may protect their idea, even though you are not putting them down by any means.
I found the electronic solid state switches, uses 12vDC to switch, will switch 120vAC at different loads, are some around that will switch dc loads too. Are these the solid state switchery that you are talking about??
I for one would like to know what you have found and if you do not care to share on this board, then let me contact you and we can email our thoughts.
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cd |
Tony (64.215.196.104)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 10:37 pm: | |
Stan
I also woulde like to know what you have found
Tony |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 11:45 pm: | |
Stan, I for one will listen to your idea with an open mind, if your transistor switch is the better idea, then I'll built them instead!
Brian |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.219.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 12:39 am: | |
Stan,
That's not being nice is it. You drop an idea that you use and then sit back and those of us who are not electronics engineers have to suffer. The so called experts may not know.
If you aren't going to tell, don't say anything in the first place.
Peter. |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 8:35 am: | |
Anyone with a basic knowledge of electronics should be able to build a simple transistor toggle. A single pusbutton will make it change state every time the button is pushed. An unlimited number of pushbuttons can be used. Plain old silicon power transistors capable of 15 amps or more are under $1.00. Signal transistors and capacitors cost a few cents. If you want to get fancy you can build a dimmer into the same power transistor. I posted this information on a bulletin board more than a year ago and a couple of engineers told me all the things wrong with the design and why it wouldn't work and wouldn't last. Since mine have lasted more than 10 years I thought the design was adequate but I am not going to argue with people who tout how many degrees they have. I just wait for them to post a better design, so I can use it.
I will look through my old (1990) records and if I can find the original drawing (no guarantee), I will email it to people who just want a simple switch. I built several on one piece of perf board (one for the rear and one for the front) so that all the control wires came to a common point.
Peter: I won't say anything about your comment! |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
I have taken a quick look for the transistor switch without luck. I have literally thousands of drawings from years of design and I don't remember what size of drawing it was on to simplify the search. I will continue to look and If I find it I will post on the board. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.247.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:40 am: | |
I'd sure like to see those drawings Stan.
Still, if you don't, I'd surely like to see something a layman could understand, when it comes to electrical, I just try not to let the smoke out!
Brian |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
I recall a class I had years ago and they "touched" on the transistor switch (in this case they were using them in protective relays). I think one side of this transistor has a bolt type screw and is held firm with a nut(load side). the other side had a heavy wire with a connector for the source. There were two small control wires the came out of the case that get connected to the control voltage. There were several types, if I recall,
One would liven with power to the control and drop with the lack there of.
One, I think, would sort of "latch" with power to control and would hold, even if power was released. needed power to release again. WOW, this was a long time ago.
I am using a couple of Solid State Relays, I assume these are along the same lines. Already built in a block like shape 2 1/2" by 3" by 3/4", have seen them range from 2 amps to 90 amp capacity. If you find them on the liquidation or hobbie market, you can buy them for a song. They come designed to switch AC or DC loads and I think the control voltage can come either way also but DC control seems most available. Add the simple switch circuit I show in the previous post and it can switch the ground side of control.
Note that the control load is almost unmeasureable, and if you switch with the grd side, your only concern for type and way you run wire is the integrity of the wire itself.
I think these are "related" to the transistors STAN is talking about and cheap if you can build what you need.
The electronic relay that I used come with terminals for control and load sides. I am sure you could beat the cost of those latching relays and these are silent operation(no moving parts). You would only hear the switch "snap"when you operate it.
Is'nt this stuff fun?
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cdcdcdcdcdcd |
H3Jim (68.105.103.139)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
Stan,
I'd sure like to see plans too if you have them. I am a geek, but not an engineer, so I won't know enough to criticize you unless I can't make them work. I like the idea of dolid state, and to build the latch so it doesn't take battery power to hold in either on or off state. Heres a vot of confidence and encouragement. |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
Cory and H3Jim: First off, let me say that I don't sugest that people without electronic experience should build their own circuits. There are too many traps in the layout and construction for the inexperienced.
In some of my first classes when I was changing from glass bottle to solid state (1956) we had to work with multivibrators. If you think of the monostable where the output is always of the second transistor start thinking about how you can trigger the first transistor with a pulse. Although I used to have a good memory, I don't remember the details of the circuit I built but I think I capaciity coupled the pushbutton and triggered the base with a capacitor. Feedback from the power transistor maintains the lock until triggered again. I never said the circuit came out of a Radio Shack book but a little experimenting can make it work if you understand transistor circuits.
Re soild state relays: I have used thousands of them in AC circuits but never in DC. I am not saying they don't work, I just haven't used them. The drawback to this application is that you have to have a control voltage applied to turn them on. To be able to use multiple switches you would be back to the three and four way control switches.
Solid state relays are expensive to buy and I was never able to find a real good deal on the surplus market although I did use them for a load sharing system in one bus. One of my objects in converting busses was to challenge the mind and make whatever the mind could devise. I still have all the equipment for welding, machining, electronics, painting etc. I never did my own sheet metal and I admired the skilled sheet metal men who could turn a single piece of flat metal into impossible shapes by bending.
I will continue to look through old drawings (as time permits) and if I find the switch drawing I will let you know. |
gary Stadler (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 1:16 pm: | |
AKKKKKKKKKKKKKK !! Ok, you guys are all driving me nuts!!
The last thing I'd ever do in my bus is contemplate using a bunch of transistors or electronics to control my lights. If you actually know how to design transistor or electronic circuits, you'd definitely agree... it's not worth the hassle, time, or expense not to mention complexity and reliability issues that you'd create. Also, I have to tell you that solid state relays rarely if ever will work on DC. Their inherent nature makes them AC devices only, unless you purchase a very specialized one...basically solid state relays are not an option on DC circuits...
That said, I'd better put my money where my mouth is and give you some reasonable suggestions as to how to control a single light with many buttons or switches.
Three ways to easily control a light with many switches:
(1) Do it the way CoreyDane suggests, with a combination of single-pole-double-throw and double-pole-double-throw switches. This takes a bit of wire running around yer bus but it's the simplest and easiest to do. You can get small SPDT and DPDT switches from any electronics supplier (Surplus, All electronics is a great source
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=700&type=store ) or if you have the room you can use standard 3-way and 4-way house-style switches from Home Depot. These 120 volt switches will absolutely work fine on 12 volts as long as you don't exceed their current rating. Don't listen to people who say they wont.... they will.
(2) If you want push-button control, and can stand having a separate "on and "off" button at each station (or you could use a center-off SPDT spring return switch instead of two buttons), you can use a "latching relay" to control the lights. This is a relay that has a coil to turn it "on" and a different coil to turn it "off". Mouser Electronics is a good source for 12 volt latching relays:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/616/896.pdf
You're looking at the top one on the page:
528-2507-6 W250ML2CPX-6 B3 DPDT 10A 12 VDC $16.64
Note this relay has two poles that can handle 10 amps each; the two poles can be parallelled together to handle a 20 amp load. It's also an "octal socket" relay meaning you'll have to buy a specific "octal" socket to plug it in to.
(3) If you want only one button per station in a "push-on/push-off" configuration, then the key word here is a relay called an "impulse latching relay" meaning that it has a single coil with a mechanical ratchet assembly that turns it's contacts on with one pulse to it's coil and back off again with another.
Again, Mouser Electronics is the simple place to spend your money:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/616/907.pdf
655-S89R5DBD1-12 S89R5DBD1-12 K 12 VDC SPDT 15 A $ 23.66
Here are some example circuits I've drawn up for all of you to make all this understandable:
http://www.heartmagic.com/latchingrelays.jpg
Ok, I hope that helps ya out...
Cheers |
H3Jim (68.105.103.139)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
In the meantime, I have these mechanical, proven reliable, $40, solenoid operated, dual switch jobs, that will work very well. I just like the idea of the solid state, and of lower cost. However I don't need that many of them...
They are 2" x 3" x 1.5" with threaded mounting holes, spade connectors. |
Cory Dane (66.155.188.211)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 2:48 pm: | |
Just to add to Gary Stadlers column, for multiple switches of the push button variety, they come in colors, round or square, lit button or not, all sizes and they type I bought are Push on, Push off, also, they are DPDT so I can use the diagram I offered previously for 2 or 3 switch locations.
If you need to switch large loads, you can use a simple Aux relay with suitable contacts to carry the load. The coil load is no concern unless you have hundreds of them in the circuit.
The alternative is the electronic relay which will do a fine job as well and the control circuit will not tax your dc system.
As for cost, I have found them at various places, yes new they are expensive, cost reflected upon the load carrying capability you want. But surplus places, take-outs, or used equipment is available and I have found them at the $5.00 mark.
As for the Electronic relay, I have seen them for switching AC as well as DC. Never had to use one for DC switching yet but the control voltage load is almost nothing. I have a few in the circuits.
Just an additional clarification
"Imagine Your Dreams"
Cdcdcd |
lesr44 soon to be lesr-9 (207.81.106.202)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 4:09 am: | |
one dark and stormy day, I went to my car, the rear window was fogged up so I reached for the rear defogger switch, and low and behold this is a momentary on/momentary off switch (same on most cars with rear defogger) IS THIS A LATCHING CIRCUIT??????
If so I'm off to the wreckers junk pile |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.222.151)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 10:40 am: | |
If it is a Ford product, then I can say that they do use the latching system, but it is a powered latch. In otherwords if the window heat stays on until you either turn it off manually or if it goes off when you turn off the ignition switch, then it's probably a relay which holds the contacts with power.
The automotive relays which are non-power consuming are often used for the Hi-Lo beam switching. If the column stalk clicks and returns to the start position everytime you either go to Hi beam or Lo beam, then that will be a non-powered latching relay. Such as those that VW Beetles used in the mid-70s, available online for around $15.
Peter. |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Uhm, I have see the column type HiLo switch also operate as a "Ratchet" operation, mechanically switching on and swithing off with movement of the lever. That would be operating a simple relay, non latching but reliable.
"Imagine Your Dreams"
cdcd |