| Author | Message | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 512 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25  Rating: N/A |
Here's some background: For the past year or so I've been designing and building the new cabinets for the galley in my GMC PD4103. Yeah, I know it's taking a long time, but, hey, it keeps me out of the pool hall. Besides, no one is paying me any over time! Awhile back I got the base cabinet box and face frame in and secured it while checking for square and plumb and straight. Since my bus is primarily spring suspension, I figured once it was in, it would stay where I planted it. Needless to say, WRONG! I finally got all the hardware to install the drawers, and I started on this task early Saturday morning last. The problems started when I installed the drawer slides on the cabinet box, (the drawers already had the internal piece installed). Not trusting my eyes in a dim place, (like my noggin), I made a "tic stick" to make certain the slides were installed exactly the same on both sides, attached the slides using the stick and a whole mess of screws until all was solid, then slide part 'A' into part 'B'... the darned thing was so lopsided, I had one side of the drawer sticking out 7/8" and the other side in by 1/2", although the clearance on the bottom of the drawer was nearly perfect side to side. The first thought in my head was the day's of the week.... Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and the rest... WTF! I measured my tic stick, distances, angles, corners, drawer, slides on drawer, slides on cabinet, square, even used 3,4,5 method. The whole thing was so far out of whack that I had to remove all the securing screws and start again. I got the cabinet set up square, plumb and true, slid the drawer in, and it worked as smooth as they show in pictures. So I went home for the day. .....Cut to this morning.... I went out early and was going to start setting the rest of the drawers. For fun, I thought I would see if my magnificent job of installing the big bottom drawer the day before worked as well as it did before. Dammmm thing wouldn't move! I finally got it out of the slides and started measuring. The square corner to corner was out by 3/8". The plumb was out by 1/4". The square bottom front to top rear was out by almost 1/2". Plus the whole thing was wracked by 3/4" rear to front. Considering that I put the cabinet in when the humidity was about 80%, temps in the triple digits, and all was pleasantly 'Toasty'.. ie, 150°+ in the bus when not running A/C. And when installing the drawer(s), the temp was around 80° humidity 65% and the skies were cloudy. Then last night we got our first real rain since before Christmas.... Even with spring ride... the GMC flexs while at rest. Humidity WILL screw up your clearances. Temperature does make a difference when installing a cabinet base over a period of day/weeks/months! Rain, (Real Rain), will change the moisture content of plywood a bunch, even if it's not raining directly on it! My recommendation, so far... leave the heat-A/C on. Support the bus, whether it's spring or air ride... spring is probably more forgiving and takes less 'Support'. And, no matter what you do... make sure that you don't attach the cabinet base to the floor AND the sidewall until you are ready for everything to be permanently set. Whadda Bugger! | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 608 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Or leave your tolerances loose enough to account for some flex  | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 495 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Dallas Maybe should have started with bendy plywood. I saw it yesterday in Les's bus. Neat stuff, special order only. Didnot know it was even available. Joe. | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.50.157 Rating: N/A |
Do you think the cabinet is moving or the bus? Is the frame floating in the bus, or tied to the walls and floor firmly? When I make the cabinet frames I make them stand alone, and only tie them to the bus for security, not that I ever thought of why I did that, I just did it like I normally do kitchen carcasses. Brian | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 311 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
Joe goes to prove that an old dog can be taught new tricks thanks again Les | ||
| Mike Everard (Meverard)
Registered Member Username: Meverard Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 98.210.8.135  Rating: N/A |
I am a little confused. If there is plywood on the walls and ceiling, I don't know how things can move independenly, unless there is a structural problem somewhere. The floor on my bus is anchored to the walls and it should be one big structural shell. I installed cabinets that I built conventionally and brought into the bus. I anchored them to the floor and walls, and have had no movement whatsoever. There might be a reason your bus is flexing. I would like to hear if someone else has had this problem. Mike | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1510 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.60.110.97  Rating: N/A |
There might be a reason your bus is flexing. The floors are wood and are structural, attached to the coach shell with special bolts. The floor could be soft? FF | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 515 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
I think the bus was flexing because we've had some wild temperature swings here with highs in the mid 90's and lows in the 30's off and on for the last month or two, also we've been having steady winds in the 30-40 mph range and gusts up to 60-65 mph. One gust even came from the north, (the bus is pointed south), and ripped the shroud off the roof wart. Today I'll go out and see how the line up looks and if all is still lined up, I'll put in the rest of the drawers after screwing the cabinet base to the floor. Mike, I doubt there is a structural problem, since I can pull a string line and line it up with with the steel under the windows that runs fore/aft and it lines up perfectly with no sag. It's possible that when I screwed the base to the side wall that I pulled it in to tight in some places and not tight enough in other places. I have also cut more gussets and will install them all along the back and front wherever they won't be in the way. I originally had 4 gussets, one in each upper corner. Now I'll have 16, 4 for each major section of the cabinet box. Fred, I do have a couple of soft spots, and one place where a former PO cut a chunk of floor out to access the clutch rod. That spot is forward of the galley by about 5' but could be related. The PO just glued the cut out piece back in and stuck carpet over the whole thing. I'll be addressing the soft spot issues and replacing that section of floor as I move forward. | ||
| Mike Everard (Meverard)
Registered Member Username: Meverard Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 98.210.8.135 Rating: N/A |
I'd like to hear how it looks when you check it in the morning. Keep us posted. Good Luck, Mike | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 516 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
You-Reeka! We have Square, Plumb and True! I can olnly attribute it to the flexing of the bus when the winds were hitting it directly from the side, causing some lift of one side and no lift on the other. The wind slowed down finally to a mild 10-15 mph. The rain quit, although it wasn't nearly what we need. It's so dry here, the county has a burn ban on crickets rubbing their legs together! I went out this morning to check how everything looked, and all was well. One section that was screwed to the floor seemed to have a lot of tension on it, so I removed the screw holding it and it moved back about 1/8" bringing it into line with everything else. Now I can hold a straight line from any corner to any other corner and get the same reading within 1/16" to the opposite corners. YAHOOOO! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1512 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.58.181.226 Rating: N/A |
Now I can hold a straight line from any corner to any other corner and get the same reading within 1/16" to the opposite corners. That's better than any dirt house! FF | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 518 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, I have laid out a lot of houses using string and the 3,4,5 method. It's amazing that when the framers came in, they could be off as much as an inch and blame the layout guy. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Piling sawdust can be much more complex than a lot of people realize, I wouldn't want to count the number of phone calls or people that came to the door in the years that I've been trying to learn about wood to ask why something was perfectly plumb 2 days ago and is off by so much today, for some reason I was supposed to have the magic answer, my father or my grandfather would have known but I'm still in the "scratching my head and wondering" phase of my life. It's a continual learning process with the material factored in along with the location, even the suspension weighs in at some point, I've got so much to learn yet. (Message edited by cody on May 04, 2011) | ||
| Steven M. Toomey (Pabusnut)
Registered Member Username: Pabusnut Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 174.55.65.46 Rating: N/A |
Now I remember why I like Steel Framed Houses!!! | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1810 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Cody - Hey, welcome back, guy! Missed your sly 'n dry sense of humor! | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, had to lay low for a while, word got out that I was associated with libby, ever since that unfortunate hansel and gretal incident people have been kinda cautious around her,, that sure was a rough night, the torches,, the angry townspeople, the pitchforks, wow I was scared. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
Nice to have you back (((hugs))) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1513 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.58.181.226 Rating: N/A |
If you want real fun , try installing an interior in a boat afloat. Every exterior surface curves in TWO directions , and a nice level is reduced to being a nice straight edge, FF | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Fred, I've done a couple of boats for people and your right, you have to find your plumb floating out in space and work towards the wall and floor, it really messes with them when you walk onboard with a handfull of pole building spikes lol. | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 520 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
Cody, do you bend the nails over after you drive them through the hull? | ||
| Mike Everard (Meverard)
Registered Member Username: Meverard Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 98.210.8.135 Rating: N/A |
Hey guys, The first rule of thumb in a boat or a bus, is to never use a level. You should always use a framing square from the center and work your way out. I don't care how level your bus is, it is never the same twice. However, a framing square off the floor doesn't change. You use it from side to side, and front to back, that way the structure is square to the floor which is the only true thing every time. Mike | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 496 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
But some busses have sloping floors!! | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 521 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
Yup, I've been using a framing square and a sheetrock T-square, but as Joe said, some buses have sloping floors. Mine slopes about 3" between the front and the rear. The only way to get a straight line is to go from the horizontal center rail under the windows. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
I generally find the true horizontal and verticle floating in mid air lol, the floors usually slope to the middle,, the walls also change in height as well as angle, simply put, there are no straight lines or true angles in a bus, you are trying to find plumb inside a banana. After a lifetime of piling sawdust I find that nothing is for certain in a bus, or a new house for that matter. | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 522 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.203.25 Rating: N/A |
There's lots of stuff certain in a new house.... It will leak from the most inopportune place, It will have sheetrock that pops. It will have leaks in the drains and/or the incoming water lines. Some dummy will forget to put in a header on a set of French doors in a bearing wall, and figure a double 2X4 will be just as good. (Or a 2X4 laid on it's side). Forget to put the retaining bolts on the floor plates Forget that in order for the chimney to work, it has to have an opening. (I found a 5 gallon bucket half full of mortar in one that had no draft!) Put in the sliding windows from a major Window Replacement company upside down. (The installers were certified by the Window Mfg to install them). I even had to fix a foundation pad once that was 3 1/2" off, from low to high. The high was at the low end of the grade. The high was at the low end of the grade. It looked like they had set up drag bars, (Pipes that are used for leveling), backwards. Suffice it to say, it didn't drain well. LOL | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 695 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.128.245  Rating: N/A |
There once was a man from Nantucket who climbed to the roof with a bucket the clown came down there was no pail to be found 'cuz into the Chiminee he stuck it!! Tim.. using "loose" &" tolerance" in the same sentence w/o it being a reference to the resident Brew filter is like not using old, ugly, furry or funny as descriptives as well.. beside that the words Dallas & Flex of any sort together in the same sentence are ambiguous if not Oxymoronic. AND he does a fine job of multi-tasking..! holding a beer up & a chair down at the same time he types his missives is fast becoming a lost art. |