| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.27.228.102 Rating: N/A |
The decision has been long in coming, but it's here. As part of outfitting our 35' Flxible Metro transit for full timing, I'm going to ditch the Vee drive. I'm aware that I'll have to stretch the frame/body some to do this, but so be it. I already have the 13 speed Road Ranger, and I've looked at several DD Series 50 engines. I'll probably major both engine and trans before installing. What I need now is a complete Tee drive axle assembly, end to end with brakes and maxis. I assume that something like an MC 8 or 9 would work, but I seek the wisdom of this board. I'm not overly concerned about the final drive ratio since the RR has lots of room on both ends. The bus is 96 wide. I've not found any web sites of other such conversions, but if you know of one, I'd like to have the url. I have an open mind, so don't hold back if you feel you have something worthwhile to contribute. Best to all, Jim in NC | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1518 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.75.218  Rating: N/A |
There are many junk yards for trucks that will have an axle you can flip. Or you can get a bus unit. We wanted to change axle ratios on out VL so went to the truck guys and got a 2.93-1 with a 23,000 rating.The entire VL is probably 25,000 so there is lots of beef. IF you are switching to the DD50 engine , the gearing will be WAY! different from a '71 series power plant. Torque is the new goal, not 2100rpm at cruise. To flip the axle the drain plug and fill plug will need relocation. Do not toss your old axle , on ours the old mounts for the brake cans needed to be moves to the truck unit to make it fit. If you are going for economy rear wide singles make sense , and you can select the "inset" (on cars its measured as setback) from the many Alcoa offer.SO 96 wide is no problem. Good hunting, FF | ||
| Jim Sanders (Sandy)
Registered Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 69.199.96.250  Rating: N/A |
Hello lostranger glad to see you on the board I am Jim Sanders sandersjim@live.com houston tx i am glad to hear that some other bus nut is working on a Flxible. I bought mine a 68 flxliner last year. Drove it from new jersey to houston. found a lot of rost in the frameing have been replacing rust.ever since. Still a long way to go ( have plenty of pictures if you like) I had to pull the Idler gear in the drop box Inspection of the gearing showed a tooth of the main drive gear gone?????? So i have the problem now of replacing the gear or the entire drop box. Help please..... Jim | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.225.69.218 Rating: N/A |
I hadn't thought of flipping a truck axle. Good idea. The engine I'm replacing is a 6v92 TA DDEC I. Runs okay, but pees oil. Apparently I have a bad rear main seal. I've never liked the V731 transmission for highway use. I'm going for efficiency, economy and NO OIL LEAKS. A friend of mine put a 50 and a 13speed in an MC 9 several years ago, and I was impressed. I like driving a Road Ranger, and I think that will be the ticket in my Flex. Sandy, I'd love to see pictures of your project. Write me off list, and I'll send you some shots of mine in its currently ugly state. Jim in NC | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1381 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.178.71  Rating: N/A |
We WANT TO SEE IT TOO YA NO!! Gomer | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2076 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
some axles have a cover on rear that can be swapped to front and with some stud sizes and changes can negate flipping housing, although getting a MCI axle would be simpler. Since you can make some Roadrangers double overdrive, axle ratio isn't that much of a problem. I was going to do the same thing several years ago with an ACF Brill; extended it 30 inches, but never got the new framing done before I got away from it too long. Sold it to a guy in OHIO, who still has it. In this mod, I was going to use an RTOO9513 with a 6v-92. | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.225.69.218 Rating: N/A |
I'm told on another forum that I will not be able to adequately engineer an engine mount/cradle for this application since the Flex Metro is a unibody design. The bus definitely has a frame, but it does not extent to the back of the engine compartment. I have assumed that I can build a cradle for the new power package that will bolt to the body, but I'm open to instruction here. Any thoughts on this angle of the project? Jim in NC | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Lol, Jim, I'm a refugee from that "other" forum, I can almost hear them discussing how you cannot do that, just because they can't do it then nobody else can either, there are some very nice and capable people on the "other" board but most of them are afraid to post because of the naysayers. My suggestion is that anything can be done, just map it out and set up your frame to carry the weight, there are many ways to reinforce a unibody bus, don't be afraid to think out of the box, anything can be done and probably has been done just need the right person to speak up. I run an iggle therefore it's rusted out and isn't safe to run, or so I was told, nothing could be further from the truth but I gave up and now I'm here, happy as a bug. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Thinking back on things now, growing up if I had known about all the things I couldn't do, I probably wouldn't have done half of them, when I was 12 I had a lapse in judgement and ran an idea past a friends dad that was vice president for American Can and had some friends, in no time I had a 17ft coleman canoe fresh from the factory and a 3 HP briggs and straton lawn mower engine, I cut a hole in the bottom of the canoe, mounted a washing machine transmission and scoop with an impeller and bolted on a tiller on top of the lawn mower engine so I could use the washing machine coupler to turn the engine in a complete 360, I grew up on a private lake and all summer we hit the water, I had the only canoe in 1963 that could outrun and outmanuver a ski boat, Swede got the guy from coleman to come over and check out my rig, he liked it, I guess technically that was the first jet ski but I just saw it as fun, we used to do all kinds of stuff that couldn't be done, we just wern't smart enough to know that we couldn't do it. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1382 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.178.71 Rating: N/A |
Jim Have you seen the concrete trucks that have the engine mounted in the rear?? The frame flexes going down the road and they stay together so I am with others, If it can't be done, ain't nobody tried it LOL Gomer | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2077 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: |
roughly, half the weight will be at the very back, hanging from the body shell while half will be at rear springs area. The rear weight will try to pull down and pull roof seams apart. The other force will be the sides trying to bow out or in. I'd add a wide reinforcing strip of probably same thickness or slightly thicker of same aluminum down center of inside roof surface and down to bumper area...maybe 3 feet wide? Make a horse shoe frame for bottom inside of body and attach sides securely. Add bracing to eliminate any possibility of side buckle. I riveted with factory type solid rivets, all the aluminum additional panels. I separated the Brill at some overlapping panels behind rear axle. I then moved the rear 4 or 5 foot long back end section back thirty inches, spent a good while leveling it up first, so it would be straight when done, and then rivited aluminum panels in to fill the void. Where the panels lapped, I backed it up with a vertical horseshoe reinforcement channel, similar to the other ones on the coach. I robbed from another Brill enough ss siding to install over the extension so you couldn't tell it was stretched, other than the longer rear overhang, which still had good proportions afterwards. I wasn't concerned much strength problems, as the Brill had a fuel tank and very large baggage compartment at the very rear. I was going to cut the frame rails from the donor Roadway tractor to connect between rear spring hanger area to the rear end of horseshoe. Proper measuring and cutting of frame rails, enabling the engine and trans to be set right back onto the tractor mounts. Then I was going to frame and box in engine compartment,etc, etc. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1230 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.68.214.234 Rating: N/A |
Jim, There are a lot of things to think about in an undertaking like this. Something to think about is overhang. Your bus is designed to have the engine right behind the rear wheels. When you change it to a tee drive, the engine will move back somewhere between 2 and 3 feet. Aside from the torque reinforcement which is now front-to-back, and will have to change to side-to-side, the engine weight will all be where is now behind the bus, which will create a LOT of leverage, if that makes any sense. It will be a HUGE amount of work to re-engineer and rebuild the frame from several feet in front of the rear axle, mount a clutch pedal and linkage, or an air clutch, and transmision shift linkage. The radiator can be cooled with a hydraulic fan and flex hoses. My question though, is one, what do you have after you do all of this? Two, if you go to all of that work, why not do it to an MC5C or the equivalent? Cheap to buy a seated coach, the right rear end and frame are already in, and you have BAYS! A conversion would be lots less work than the T-drive installation. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying your bang for the buck would be a dull thud. G | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
George is right, there are ways to get a bigger bang for your buck but are they as much fun, I remember back when the honda 750 came out, it was a wide engine with loads of torque and suddenly everyone wanted to play with the idea of making a chopper or custom bike using the engine. Most choppers at that time used the harley engines or limey engines ,, I had one made out of a 1964 triumph, nice streamlined and super quick,, we heard all about the engineering headaches of using the 750 engine cause it was so wide and demanding but for a bunch of people it was different enough to be worth while to try. Pretty much sounds like the same thing here, not an easy build but a challenge none the less, first thing is to know your frame and construction and identify the weak areas and possible trouble spots, then come up with a viable solution, unibody is a challenge for sure, but anything can be overcome. You will need to know what stress points there are and see what can be done or has been done by others to correct that then map out your battle plan. It won't be easy but I think it will be a thing of beauty and totally unique when it's done, just take it one step at a time and identify problems and correct them, it's like eating an elephant,, you do it one bite at a time. A few months ago I had to have a doctor take a looksee at my heart cause it acts up now and then and usually at a time that proves to be damn inconvient, wasn't long after they took me back to my room that the radiologist popped his head into my room and said he wanted to meet me, he said he had never seen so many blockages in a living body, he said he found in the neighborhood of 50 blockages that were in the 60% range and wanted to know how my diet of waste fryer oil was working for me, I told him it was working fine and offered him a drink of my IV cause it was the only liquid I had close by at the time. He declined but the idea is the same, nobody says it's easy but it will be a challenge that you can be proud of once the bugs are worked out and we'll be intersted in following the progress of it, at least I will. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1811 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Jim - The transit property I retired from had a bunch of Flx Metros, both 35 and 40 footers, so I'm quite familiar with them - but more from an Operations & Training perspective than that of a technician. That being said, are you aware that Flx made a special jig ($$$!) that had to be put in place before the powertrain cradle was pulled? If it wasn't, then the entire rear portion of the body, starting from just behind the rear door, would splay outward. If not caught in time, it became a MAJOR project to get the body realigned properly. That model Flx is "snapped 'n glued" together, the most unique construction of any coach of it's era. Minor body work is no worse than any other vehicle, but major body damage repair often took months, rather than a week or two with the older Flx "New Looks" or any of the Gilligs. The trunion bearing where the rear suspension "A-frame" attaches to the fuel tank bulkhead also can and did give the shop fits. This model coach also leans considerably on tight turns, in some cases enough to damage the leveling valve actuating rods at the rear. If you haven't noticed already, the driver's platform literally hangs from the roof. If you're 6-feet or taller, moving the seat back enough to get comfortable conflicts with the hanging support - very uncomfortable if you've got to spend eight hours cramped up behind the wheel. Another point: It would be far less expensive to overhaul the 6V92TA AND the V-731 than converting to a T-drive. When properly put together, the 2-stroke doesn't leak oil, and the V-731 is fine for highway use - it's actually a very rugged transmission. (Side note: Are you using straight 40wt oil in the engine? These are notorious for "peeing oil" when multi-weight is in the pan.) As George said, converting this particular chassis from a V-drive to a T-drive would be a major undertaking, something that might drive you to the undertaker! (Sorry, couldn't resist the bad joke!) However, as Fast Fred is fond of saying: "Do it your way!" FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.250.254.164 Rating: N/A |
Thanks everyone for the broad range of learned input and inspiration. Just when I thought I had it figured out.... I love a worthwhile challenge, but deliberately acting stupid is not my idea of fun. Obviously, the Tee drive conversion on the Flex would be acting stupid. So, it's back to considering shell options. In particular, I'll need to reexamine the length issue. For years, my dream bus was a 102 C3 until we decided to stay at 35'. Maybe we should live with the extra five and used the toad more. A C3 with a manual transmission should be fairly easy to convert to a Series 50 and 13 speed. I'm not a big fan of the MC5. For one thing, I'm 6'5", and 5s with a raised roof look out of proportion to me. I will reconsider starting with a 5 and raising it, however. Maybe a Gillig transit would be okay, but if I'm starting over, I'd rather have bays. Bus building is full of the "Jaws Syndrome." Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water.... My appreciation to all who have contributed. Jim in NC | ||
| Jim Sanders (Sandy)
Registered Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 69.199.96.250 Rating: N/A |
Jim if i understand we are talking about then i am in deep COOOOmechi I am stell trying to get you some pictures of my bus. Frameing ate up by rust.... Have i bit of more than i can chew???????????????????????????? Jim | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1109 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
To each his own but no way would I do that much work and install a 50 series DD | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1812 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20 Rating: N/A |
Jim - I'm with Clifford on this - I wouldn't put a S-50 in a C3 either, that would be going backwards! Lots and lots of C3s out there with Cummins & S60s, both much better engines than the filling-rattling 50. Also, are you sure you want to go thru 7 shifts just to get to 35 mph? An automatic is so much nicer in an RV, plus a HUGE advantage when trying to wiggle into a campsite at Oh Dark Thirty! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1110 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
There are some out in the world that have Cat engines also | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.250.254.164 Rating: N/A |
Of course everyone has opinions, but I like the DD 50. Never owned one, but every one I've spent time around has impressed me. I've not seen one that vibrates badly like some claim, and they appear to go forever. Plus, they're reasonably priced. I like the DD 60 also, but it seems like overkill for what I need. Especially weight and length. If I happen to find a D3 that already has a 60, I'll keep it, but if I'm swapping, it'll likely be a 50. I know that Cat and Cummins and Merc make great engines, but I only plan to do this once, and I want what I want. I'm convinced that if I start with a 50 in good shape, it will still be going when Gabriel plays reveille and still getting good fuel economy. I can't see how replacing a 2 stroke with an efficient, powerful 4 cylinder 4 stroke is moving backward. On the other hand, I'd love to hear from people who have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with S-50 engines that vibrated excessively. I'd like to know what those beasts were in and whether they were factory installations. Everyone I know who has one loves it. Those are mostly in road tractors and tandem dump trucks. As far as the transmission goes, I'll say again that I like driving a RR. Yes, I LIKE to shift, and I suspect the RR will gain at least 2mpg over the best auto going. Maybe more. That's a lot of diesel saved over perhaps 20 years. This is not a hobby coach. I'm 58, and I plan to spend the rest of my days in it. I'm loving the discussion, and again I thank all who have contributed. I'm giving all your comments serious thought. Jim in NC | ||
| Jim Sanders (Sandy)
Registered Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 69.199.96.250 Rating: N/A |
Jim I am on your side.... Some of the comments sound like my friends and relatives I will be 82 in june.Bought a JUNK bus to convert!!! AT My Age !!! We are off our rocker!! But I am haveing fun!!!! What are we supposed to do!!! Set twiddel the thumbs Leave it all to Relations Jim i love tou HAVE FUN | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Ahhh poop, I wanted to see the honda 750 engine installed in the prevo, or was it a series 60 on a chopper, I get so cornfused. What I'm glad to see is both sides of the issue calmly discussed with the pro's and con's placed on the table instead of a flat out, "it won't work" or a "you can't do that", what we always need instead of condemnation are the stressors highlighted and the problem areas discussed with possible fixes. Bus conversion is a hobby that is heavily into the innovative aspect of the sport, thats pretty much why we're all here,, to lie about our mileage and bat ideas back and forth about what we've done or would like to do. One thing I'd like to take a good look at is the drive train of the Revcon all wheel drive unit, the Revcon Golieth has intriqued me to no end being all wheel drive,, being a 40 ft unit it would make an interesting setup, I've played with revcons since the early 80's and am still learning about them but thats for another day,, meanwhile back to the honda 750,,,,,, | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1111 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
50 series are a obsolete engine different crowds I guess but 2 of my friends have removed theirs from Eagles buses not so much for vibration but for the lack of power they do require some work to prevent the shaking. Campbell has his 50 set on 370 hp I heard don't know he did that but he likes his 50 series but according to his post the fuel mileage is not that great about the same as my 8v92. While on a visit to Stewart and Stevenson they had a stack of the 50 series with holes they knocked in the block as part of a suit by the City of El Paso where they were replaced with Cummins Engines but if you like the engine go for it | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 500 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
I asked a Detroit Diesel shop about the series 50 engine and their reply was under powered for most applications, vibration but the series 55 was even a bigger head ache. The series 60 is by far a better choice if you have the clearance and height as it is a very tall engine. This comes right from a place that services and sells them. Bill | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.235.130.71 Rating: N/A |
Where is Hard Headed Ken when you need him. He is putting a series 50 and a v731 in a silversides. I think there is one already runing out there.Don't rember who has it but have seen pictures on the internet uncle ned | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2078 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
That's a lot of work just because you like the 50 series. The 60 is already discontinued and the 50 isn't far behind if not already. That is a lot of work for a couple miles to the gallon. A coach with the stock pieces is enough of a headache to keep maintained as it is. Also think how you are going to deal with breakdowns on the road. I was going to do this to the Brill because it had a gas engine with a little over 5 miles to the gallon and THAT Hall Scott was obsolete too. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1522 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.194.80.231 Rating: N/A |
Campbell has his 50 set on 370 hp I heard don't know he did that but he likes his 50 series but according to his post the fuel mileage is not that great about the same as my 8v92. The 50 is easy to get to 320HP, but 320 hp in a 50,000+ pound Eagle will never be a hot rod.Even wit a modified D Deck and 370hp 25 tons is a load. Cut the weight in half and its a whole new world. Fuel burn is a measure of efficiency , the engines AND the shells. Drive 75 mph with a 13.5 ft tall square cornered box ,dragging a spare axle, that weighs 50,000 lbs and NO engine will have great fuel economy. WE have found that with a 10 ft height and 35 ft length that touring the US no toad is required. And 9+mpg is the norm. Any place the UPS guy goes , so do we!. Make a list of WHAT THE COACH NEEDS TO DO, I call them "Desirements" Then its easier to see which compromises are good with your plans. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2079 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Put in a vs-2 and run 75 and get great mileage; sucks on hills though.How much work does one want to do to get two to three miles or more to the gallon? Going to depend mostly on how much use the coach is really going to see. 100,000 miles? yeah, maybe. 2,000 miles a year? wasting your money. fix,run what you have now and enjoy using it. Kudos to those that actually have gone to the trouble of making the changes and really use the coach. Many start down the major change path and then lose interest, finances, etc.. and there is another good coach, shell with no resale value except for scrap or parts. Also a BIG item is whether you can do most of the work yourself or have to pay others. Maybe it would be easier to find the coach with the drive line you desire and then...change to body to look like the coach you want. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2081 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.175.194  Rating: N/A |
Sometimes it is about the journey, not the destination. For many busnuts, a completed coach means boredom, and they start again or upgrade. A big re-engineering job may just be the hobby, not the camping? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 588 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
so true BW. I had a buddy always working on his bike and every sat nite or sunday afternoon we would get ready to ride somewhere but he would have to adjust the clutch or rebuild the carb, pull the chain always somthing. took me awhile to realize he only liked working on his bike. the silversides with the series 50 was done at Bernhard in Quakerstown Pa and i believe they have pictures on the site. He is on the facebook for buses Ian set up. |
