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CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.103)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 2:58 am:   

Ok, I tried to save this once and lost it, Hmmmm. So IAN, if you see Two of these messages on here, I DID"NT DO IT ON PURPOSE.

Ok to business. I have been working on the wiring drawings for the INVERTER/GENSET/SHORE/AC PANEL for some time now. I must have come up with every kind of configuration you can imagine, and then some. Then it hit me, all of a sudden, right in the, errr, light bulb. I don't need any relays or all that other wiring, it really is kinda simple. Just added a 50AMP outlet that has the neutral and ground jumpered together and the L2 is connected to the INV OUT. This 50A outlet gets installed where the Shore cable is stored.

When in storage, the plug is plugged into this outlet.

I had to write it out, please bear with me.

Alright, if I did this right, I think I have come up with a fail safe method of connecting the EXPENSIVE electrical components of the system AND opening the BOND when connected to Shore Power and Closing the Bond when on Inverter or Gen.

Please do comment! The design is a lot simpler than connecting a bunch of relays and takes most of the possibility for a relay failure out of the picture. This seems the simplest solution to what could be a very expensive project. I don't have means to get a pic on here so I have to talk you through.
UGH, here goes.

Alright, the Inverter is a Xantrex/Trace SW4024 with a terminal board marked
Grid | Gen | Neutral1 | Neutral2 | NeutralOUT | InverterOUT

Everything else is pretty much self explanitory except, this requires a female 50A outlet with the Neutral and Grd jumpered. Also L2 is connected to the InverterOUT circuit. This outlet is located where the SHORE POWER CORD is stored.

"Shore" L1 connects to the Trace "GRID"
"Shore" L2 Connects to the "AC DIST PNL L2 Breaker"
"Shore" N Connects to the "TRACE NEUTRAL2"
"Shore" Grd Connects to the "AC DIST PNL GRD BUS"

Note, "AC DIST PNL GRD also connected to INVERTER GRD"

"GENSET" L1 connects to the "TRACE GEN TERM"
"GENSET" Neutral connects to the "TRACE NEUTRAL2"
"GENSET" GRD connects to the "TRACE GRD"

OPERATION

When the Shore line is plugged into the Female 50A outlet, the jumper across the NEUTRAL and GRD makes up the BOND.

As the GENSET only connects to L1 on the TRACE, it needs no external switching.

With Either the INVERTER or GENSET in operation, L1 in the AC PANEL is already energized from the TRACE "INV OUT TERM". With the Shore power cord plugged into the Female 50A outlet, L2 is energized from the INVERTER OUT, and is tied with L1, keeping both legs alive. If your require some load sheding, you can do this when you are not on shore power.

ONE THING THOUGH, DO WE GRD TO THE CHASIS???

I beleive this is a good solid scheme and is most likely the way I will go. I bring it here to be double checked and to offer as an idea to help others.

Thanks ya'll

"Imagine"
cd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:01 pm:   

Cory,

You have a couple problems with this.

1. The code does not allow any of its grounding requirements to be fulfilled by a manual connection means. In other words, you can not rely on plugging in a cord to establish proper ground-neutral bonding. There is no way around using a relay for this purpose with the SW4024.

2. If you use the SW4024 internal transfer switch, the generator neutral and the shore neutral will be permanently connected. If you have a ground-neutral bond in your generator, the there will be two bonding points when the shore cord is plugged in -- this is forbidden by code. Opinions vary on what, if any, is a safe and legal means to deal with this issue (see other thread, below). Xantrex, unwilling to open itself to liability on this front, will not tell you how to do this.

3. It is against code to have a 120/240 outlet, such as the one you describe, where only one leg is hot.

Lastly, yes, you must have a solid connection between your grounds and the chassis.

-Sean
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.120.187)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:14 pm:   

Sean,

My friend's '95 Winniebago has a shore power lead and a lead from the genset which he manually plugs into the motorhome. Now it is probably 2 sockets and one lead from the motorhome which is plugged in, I can't remember, but it is a physical connection to which ever source he is using.

My Apollo uses a specail breaker box which makes you slide a lock out strip across to be able to turn on different breakers for which ever source you are using.

How does this adjust the neutral and ground bonding, or is it just an Inverter thing?

Peter.
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:37 pm:   

Peter,

The method you discuss is not identical to what Cory was describing. It's fine to have a generator with an outlet, and then plug the shore cord into that outlet (no transfer switch involved). Cory wants to use the outlet differently, in a way that is both dangerous and against code.

Neutral/ground bonding only become an "issue" if you have an inverter.

-Sean
Gelecamion (Gelecamion) (66.1.43.112)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:19 pm:   

hi i think sobebody stole the inverter out of mine 4104 so i need some help to see if that has some deal why the bus does not want to start thank you need any help posible ???
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.37)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:24 pm:   

Gelecamion,
If they stole the inverter, the only thing that seems to be related to the bus side would be your DC system. Follow the path of cut DC cables and see if they nailed some important wires.

ALRIGHT SEAN .

This seemed to be the best, and simplest fix, as well as the simplest to wire up, guess this was DOOMED from the start. I did recognize the "OOPS" factor, that is, WHAT IF someone was too lazy to plug into the outlet to make the interlock up. I was dreaming up a relay for that.

I found in the Xantrex/Trace book where they want the system grounded to chasis, ok that one is gone.

I am sure, that the BOND can be made automatic.
The now DOOMED 50A outlet box has the Ground and Neutral bus in it, this can readily become a relay box. With a 120v coil on the relay, perhaps one of the Aux switches in the inverter can handle the job.

I am usually ok with "strange" circuits like this, I'll go back to the Think Tank (LOLOL) and see if part of this nice circuit can be saved.

I still believe that "SIMPLEST IS BEST".

"Imagine"
cd
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.37)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 8:14 pm:   

Alright
If the 50A outlet is removed from the plan, now the need is for a "Auto" type contactor to operate Closed to Bond N + G when Shore energy is removed.

If the contactor has a 120v coil, one leg connected to the Grid leg of shore at the inverter and the other leg connected to N1, the relay should operate when shore energy is removed, is this right? (been in the book for a while, it doesn't specify "feedback" issues.

If the above statement is true, then, the BOND can be hooked to the NC contacts, which open when the Shore power picks up the relay. After removing the shore power, the Bond will close.
IS THIS IN THE PARAMETERS?

Ground to the chasis is of no big deal, it can easily be done in the Relay panel.

BTW
I appreciate you folks out there that have heard this over and over and over before. Everytime one of us gets ready to wire, the questions come up because we all do it differently in some fashion. Thanks for enduring this process with me, it'll be over soon.
"Imagine"
cd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:05 pm:   

Cory,

Yes, you want an NC contactor (or to use the N/C contacts of a double-throw) with a 120vac coil. Hook the coil between the AC hot input to the inverter and the neutral, then hook the neutral and ground to the NC contacts. Now, when the inverter is running solo (no input power) your ground and neutral will be bonded, and when you connect your input power, the bond will drop.

There is a diagram of this on pages 27-28 of the SW series manual, but it does not show the coil connections.

-Sean
Dale MC8 (69.19.168.198)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:40 pm:   

I called Trace about the neutral-to-ground switching relay for my SW4024 inverter. They suggested Boat Electric in Seattle boatelectric@boatelectric.com. Jeff at Boat Electric (2520 W Lake Ave. North, Seattle WA 98109 206-281-7570) has a ground-to-neutral switching relay. (BOA GND RELAY) for $127.25 plus S&H.

This was about a year ago. HTH Dale
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.97)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 1:21 am:   

Well, ok, now that the Bond is clear, lets talk about the relay or contactor.

Dale has a source asking 127.25 for their relay. Is this a special relay or would a good heavy duty relay capable of 50 or 100 amp be adequate.

Is this a special relay, or is it radically overpriced everyday run of the mill relay?

As I recall, the neutrals dont carry nearly the current that the Line does. I thought I had this all clear and obviously, it does lots of good to ask questions, and will be great for the archieve.

"Imagine"
cd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 2:19 am:   

The one Dale suggests, if you'll forgive the pun, costs a boatload... my experience in general with specialty marine dealers.

There's nothing special about this relay. I used a Potter&Brumfield DPDT power relay rated at 30 amps per pole, and ganged the poles. Even with a conservative de-rating for the ganging, this should be more than adequate for ground-fault current return on a 60-amp breaker. You should be able to find a similar relay for around $15 or so. Check Grainger, Allied, Newark, etc.

-Sean
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.19)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 8:02 am:   

I used a Grainger 5X847-6 relay and 4A079-5 cover--$40 plus tax and shipping. It not only switches the neutral/ground, but the shore power from the generator.

--Geoff
'82 RTS w/SW2512MC inverter
john marbury (Jmarbury) (65.100.118.175)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 8:08 am:   

I bought the relay from Wrico for $50.00.
John
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:13 am:   

I must be a little confused here.

Is the issue the invertor or is it the ground in general? Does the invertor require grounding different from simple bond to neutral at the source?

My design (mocked up now in the garage) is to use a bond at the generator and a bond at the meter when plugged in to the campsite. Transfer is via moving a plug in the coach from a generator receptacle to a static receptacle for the shore power cord. Physical movement of the plug keeps bonds separate.

My "unknown" is the invertor. I plan on a SW4024 model and have not bought it yet so I don't have a manual.

Am I in for a problem here?
Doug
St Louis MC9
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:38 pm:   

Doug,

The issue is when you have an inverter providing AC power, but your "cord" is not plugged in to anything at all -- neither your generator outlet, nor the shore (campground) receptacle. You now must have some way to bond the ground and the neutral together, since you have AC power to your outlets.

The code does not allow you to rely upon that cord always being plugged in. Someone could forget to plug it in, or it could come loose somehow. This is what the relay is for.

As system with no bond at all between ground and neutral is extremely dangerous.

If you buy an SW4024, you will need to add the required relay yourself. Many other models, however, have a relay built-in. You need to find out which way to go when you finally make your inverter purchase.

-Sean
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:10 pm:   

OK. That makes sense now. I overlooked the no-power connection scenario. I guess I will add the relay now.

Cheers
Doug
St Louis MC9
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.251)

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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:40 pm:   

OK DOUG and all who are in doubt.

The copy of the manuals, in PDF for is on the bottom of the page that this link takes you to.

http://www.aaaffordablesolar.com/2.html

Everything you want to know, and don't want to know, about the Xantrex/Trace SW4024 is in these manuals and you can save them to your hard drive for future reference.

As for a RELAY

I found a 4 pole, NO contacts rated at 25 amp with the 120vac coil I need for $25 from the SURPLUS CENTER - ITEM 11-2459

I think I prefer a higher rated contact but if I paralleled them, thats 100 amps. Could be done easily.

I also found some Solid State Relays at 45 amps.
How would these work in the scenario that we are talking about here?

Sean and everyone, thanks for your help and info. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and helping me figure my final hook up for this system.

"Imagine"
cdcd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:06 am:   

Cory,

The relay you found will work fine if you parallel the contacts.

A word of caution about the document link you posted -- those docs are NOT for the SW series (such as the SW4024 or the SW2512), they are for the newer Sine Wave Plus series. Similar, but different. Make sure that's what you have before you use this manual. Most of the product still in the pipeline is the old SW series. Note that the SW series have the generator start built in, while the newer product requires an optional extra-cost module.

This looks a bit slimy to me, because I believe the "sale price" unit they quote at the bottom of the page is the standard SW4024, not the Sine Wave Plus unit.

Xantrex product documentation in PDF format can all be found on Xantrex' own website at www.xantrex.com under "support -- document library."

-Sean
Cory Dane (66.155.188.111)

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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:50 pm:   

Sean
I dont know where you were looking but all I can find on that site is the plus inverter.

I'm told the only difference is that with the old standard SW4024 you get more things with it and with the "Plus" you get bare bones.

No Matter, I only required a rough guide for my needs, that will be close enough.

How did you get your L2 leg livened when on the inverter? I am looking at either a relay or SSR with control relays to interlock so no bad things happen.
I actually did some of this when I worked for the power company and I enjoy the design side of this. As I have found out though, if they don't give the info out, the design is apt to see various REVISIONS. lolol

"Imagine"
cd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:09 am:   

Cory,

If you look only under the current products, all you will find is the Sine Wave Plus. To find the old SW4024, you need to click on "Archived Documents" which is where the PDFs for older products are found.

The specific link to the SW4024 is
http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=315

Hope this helps!

With regard to how we did ours, full details are on our web site at http://ourodyssey.us/bus-e-ac.html along with diagrams on our photo pages at smugmug.

-Sean
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.56)

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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:24 pm:   

Thanks for the link
Your AC system is much more complicated than I had planned mine to be.

Of course, I wanted my AC system to be as simple as my RV Electrical but it only has one leg from 30A.

To make the AC system in the conversion somewhat similar in simplicity, at least at face value, is going to demand some control relays and switching relays or SSR's.

I have been playing with the interlock for a day or so now. I tend to think that the only way to have the inverter liven the L2 bus when there is no shore power would be to TIE L1 and L2. This brings some unerving thoughts if something closes at the wrong time. Certainly do not want to take out the inverter.

You said it was a not acceptable to have one leg of a 120/240 volt outlet alive. I feel that the outlet could be a crucial part of an interlock for the L2 power from Inv/Genset. Would it still be bad if both legs of the outlet were hot from L1? This would be the simplest way to interlock L1 and L2 and does not involve the bond. It seems to me, when you use an adapter down to 30AMP service, the adapter is doing the same thing, right? Maybe create an adapter todo the job?

I've also worked a scenario where the L2 bus would be down when Inv/Gen are energizing the dist panel, with a way to liven the L2 bus when something is needed for a short time. The Gen is 4000 watt and only about 33Amp so we would'nt care to overload the unit, now would we?

Well I am about done with the questions, just a matter of pulling all the resources together and get the final design on paper. (you should see my desk, covered with drawings and electrical catalogs, lolololol).

Thanks again

"Imagine"
cdcd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 4:43 pm:   

Technically, a hard-wired 240/120 outlet needs to be 240 leg-to-leg and 120 leg-to-neutral. That being said, it is safe to have both legs tied to the same 120v source, which is what you get, for example, when you use one of those 30a (male) to 50a (female) adapters.

The reason why having only one side tied to 120v and the other side "floating" is unsafe has to do with 240-v loads. If you plug something into such a receptacle that has both 240v and 120v loads, and a 240v load is "energized" (turned on), then the 120v being supplied on one side of that device will pass through the device and create a hot voltage on the other side, just waiting for something (such as a 120v load energized on that side) to try to conduct it to ground.

Tieing the two legs together puts them at the same potential. Any 240v loads will simply not work, as they will now "see" zero volts between the legs.

The way to do what you suggest, but still follow code, is to have a 120-volt outlet from your inverter, and then use a portable adapter to feed that into a standard 50a-240/120v receptacle to feed both sides of your panel.

If I understand what your objective is, you are trying to come up with a scheme whereby you can have two separate systems powered separately by the two sides of 240-v service when it is available to you, but also be able to run both sides of your system from your one 120v inverter when 240-v service is not available. It sounds like you also want to do this without using relays or automatic switches. Let me propose such a scheme:

Run all of your inverter-always loads from one 120-v panel which is connected directly to inverter output. Add one more circuit to this panel, which is a 30a rv-style or 50a/120v receptacle.

Run all your other loads, the ones not normally on the inverter, from another 120v panel. Feed this panel with a flexible cord with a 30a RV-style plug or a 50a/120v plug, to match the receptacle above.

Feed the inverter itself with another flexible cord with 30a or 50a/120v plug.

Now build your shore cord with a 50a/240v plug on one end, and two 120v receptacles, to match the plugs above, at the other end.

Now you can connect your inverter and "dry" loads to a 240v source separately with the shore cable. When a 240v source is unavailable, you can plug your "dry' panel into your inverter.

If your generator is also 120v only, then make the plug on your inverter cord match the generator receptacle.

I think a proper transfer switch would be cheaper, smaller, and easier to use, but that's just me...

-Sean
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.199)

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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:28 pm:   

Sorry I'm such a windbag at times. I did'nt want this string to be beat to death.

Ok to keep this short. I have no problem using relays or SSRs for the transfer equipment. Actually, I perfer it. Where I get nervous is when the shore cord is unplugged (feeds L1 & L2) and the inverter/gen feed L1 only.

My use of the L2 bus may only be periodic but for those times I need it, I would need to close the BusTie Relay to TIE BUS L1 and BUS L2, and that is what scares the crap out of me.

I have been scheming with control relays to operate the Shore L2 relay and the BUS TIE BUSL1/BUS L2 and the BOND relay (BOND Turned out to be the SIMPLEST scheme), and I can make em work. but thinking about the possibility that the inv/gen being able to close into SHORE (If the TIE is closed and SHORE closes) is a definate NO NO NO.

So I interlock between the Shore and Tie so only one can close, the other becomes redundant until the relay supplying the current is opened, then the relay control becomes active again and can operate the Inv/Gen coil or the ShoreL2 coil.

Currently I am looking at having a relay "LOOK" to see that the BUS L2 is dead before allowing the TIE relay to close IF the SHORE relay is open then allow the TIE relay to close. Probably redundant but it would protect the INVERTER.

LOLOLOL. As you can see, I get involved with the "IF" this happens "THEN".

NONE THE LESS, I will probably have this scheme designed in a couple of days. I do plan some DRASTIC testing BEFORE it ever gets attached to that inverter.

ONE Question.... what is the purpose of your delay timer on the Generator? a brief answer would be fine. I have no present plans to use the auto run feature, but that could change. I need to study you drawing again, you seem familiar with interlocks as well, I am impressed.

"Just Imagine"
cd
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:32 pm:   

Cory,

One solution to address your concern is to use interlocking contactors. These are mechanically and electrically interlocked so that only one side may be closed at any given time.

To answer your question, the purpose of the delay timer is to allow the generator time to start fully and then "settle in" before putting a load on it. If the only load was the SW4024 this timer would not be required, because the SW4024 includes a programmable delay for this purpose. However, I have other loads that connect to the genny directly, so the timer ensures that these loads don't fire up before the generator is ready for them.

-Sean
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.182)

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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 1:54 am:   

Great Sean
I think I've got it. Added three control relays, actually, for all it does, it is rather simple (or I've been scheming it so lone that I've committed it to memory).

I think I will study the manual a bit more but I think I have the Inverter functions down well. Next step will be to actually build the throwover and then conduct some intense testing. LOL

===========================================

Alright for anyone that tried to follow this and became lost....

The first entry indicate a prototype hook-up to a Xantrex/Trace Inverter.
The prototype indicated to use A 50A outlet for the BOND and L2 side of the AC Dist PNL.

The Outlet was removed and BOND replaced with a Relay, which opens BOND whenever the Shore power is present/closes when shore power is removed.

L2 from shore power bypasses the inverter and connects to the second leg (L2) of the AC PNL.

When the Shore power is de-energized, if the Gen or Inv has the capacity for the load, you can pick up the L2 bus with another relay or a throwover.

What I have found out is there are as many ways to wire this as there are people thinking about it but it all achieves the same goal in the end.

I hope this string is helpful.
Thanks Sean and all for your input.

"Imagine Your Dreams"
CD
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.28)

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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:42 pm:   

Sean
for my own info, I have available some Solid State Relays (double ganged)rated 40 Amp each.

Paralleled, it would have 80 amps. Do you feel this type of relay would be acceptable for the throw-over and the BOND?

I have control circuits for both relays with contacts and the SSRs, the SSRs are a big space saver as long as they are safe and dependable.

What are your thoughts?

"Imagine"
CD
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)

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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:58 pm:   

Cory,

My direct experience with solid state relays is limited, and it's hard to answer your question without looking directly at the specs.

Any time you gang poles on a relay, you need to de-rate the capacity. (In other words, 40+40 does not give you 80, it gives you more like 60.) The amount of the de-rating should be provided by the manufacturer. If you can't get this, then I would not go more than 75%.

The other consideration is fail-safe operation -- you want to use a relay where, if the control power fails, the default state is ground and neutral bonded. Make sure any SSR you use will meet this criterion.

Lastly, regarding the actual transfer switch, my own opinion is that all current-carrying conductors that are being switched should be switched by the same mechanical device. This prevents having a sticky relay make an unsafe situation.

Hope this helps.

-Sean
David Anderson (168.215.176.206)

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Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:09 am:   

Darn, just when I thought I had it done. I have the jumper plug I made for $10 to bond the neutral and ground when on battery power. Now, the code says no, no. I've had this for two years.

Sean, I thought about the relay scheme you suggested. That will work fine. However, I think I will leave mine the way it is for now. If I ever sell it I will put the relay on it. My reasoning is: my coach is not used that much right now. I'm still working fulltime. It sits in the back yard plugged in all the time; consequently, with the relay setup, it would be energized all the time to unbond the neutral/ground. I just don't feel like I need an energized coil in my coach for months at a time.

I am usually meticulous in following proper codes, but for this application, I think I will defer for now.

I do have a suggestion. This issue gets hashed over and over. Please submit an article to the appropriate magazine (can't mention the name here) with details so we can have guidance to do this correctly. I've read dozens of internet threads of ways to do this for 4 years, (some too complicated, and some too simple) but there is no real consensus on the proper way to set the switching up.

Your expertise would be greatly appreciated by the fellow busnut community.

By the way, thanks for your guidance in setting up my ammeters with the current transformers. They work great, and I can balance my loads between phases +/- 5amps at all times. My genny windings should appreciate that.

David Anderson

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