| Author |
Message |
gerardo Leyva (Gelecamion) (66.1.43.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:24 pm: | |
hi bus guys and girls 28 year old wanting to work and travel aboard 4104 53 need all the help than i can get please clubs in the southwest?
Az area nm southwestern states !!! |
gelecamion (66.1.43.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
i need all tha help that i can get firt i brought two new bateries at napa really big ones that i took the starter to get it rebuild and nothing happens only a smal cliking noice is there a way that i can connect the batteries directly to the starter so y can by pass all the nightmare wires to the cabin i need to see yf the engine will turn over please!!! before i invest more money into it !!!!
Thank you |
comp1880 (68.243.83.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:02 pm: | |
Make sure you have them set up in series so that you have 24 volts |
John Rigby (24.174.233.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:14 pm: | |
The batteries connect in PARRELLEL NOT IN SERIES.
you need two deep cycle 8D,S FROM WALMART OR SAMS OR NAPA.
sounds like not enough battery, or a bad ground. form the starter to the coach or the batteries to the coach or a bad solenoid on the starter or a bad relay.
Do you have a manual if not, Tekebid has them at a resonable price.
John |
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:19 pm: | |
Uh, guys -- it's not clear how his batteries connect (series vs. parallel) since he has not told us what kind of coach he has.
-Sean |
Doug (68.83.22.144)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:21 pm: | |
I have both the maint and parts manual presently email me for more info at tekebird@yahoo.com
first you must determine if you have pos or neg ground.
then you can hook up the batteries or jump directly at the starter.
things to check.....
ground
all connections for corrosion.
if you have power to the battery and good ground at the battery you can cross the poles on the selenoid and it should crank.
could be a few other things as well as mentioned. |
joe shelton (64.223.170.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 9:28 pm: | |
Cables & connections are the most often problem with starters. First check ALL of the cables and related connections. Strongly recommend removing and cleaning all connections including the two for the engine ground cable. Also check the condition of the cable ends & replace/repair if loose or corroded.
Solenoid travel adjustment: See the 04 maint manual, Electrical section 7, last page of the starter section before it starts on the Generator. This adjustment should be done upon rebuild but if it is out of adjustment I understand it will make a nice loud click but not start the engine.
good luck, joe 4106 |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:01 pm: | |
Sean, his first post indicated a 4104 which is a 12 volt bus. It was also positive ground and may still be unless someone has converted it to negative ground.
If the old batteries have already been removed, it may be a problem determining whether it is positive or negative ground. And you need to know this or you stand a good chance of destroying the voltage regulator.
Richard |
carl gullett (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:57 pm: | |
you say you have a 4104 just wher are you located maby some one coupd come by i am in yuma az i have haid your problam in fact i have haid it 2 times with both 4104 i have owen |
carl gullett (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:13 pm: | |
ok i also have som pictures on how to wire the 4104 to maik it a negative
ground and if you would lik tham e mail me direct ( cgulet@webtv.net )
hope this will help carl |
mel 4104 (208.181.100.107)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:55 pm: | |
if you have a 4104, try checking the ground strap that goes from the engine to the rear bulk head, be sure to take an angle grinder with a wire brush on it and polish the metal on the jumper cable and also the bulk head, then use some good battery terminal grease between the 2 when you put them back together again. this is a very often over looked point as a lot of people do not known that it is there. due to the location of this bulk head ground it is subject to a lot of road spray which as every one knows contains all kinds of corrosive causing junk ,, best of luck. mel 4104 |
Gelecamion (Gelecamion) (66.1.43.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:14 pm: | |
yes tomorrow i will check the wiring configuration on the bus but if i am not mistaken the bus has the ground bolted to the side wall where the bateries go the system is 125 volts because when i took the starter to get repair they told me it was a 12v istead of the 24 volts thank you !!! |
mel 4104 (208.181.100.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:30 am: | |
yes you will find a ground strap from the batteries to the wall of the compartment,this is the first grounding point from the batterie and must be kept clean to make good contact as must the one at the rear bulk head. the hardest one to get to gives the most trouble so be sure to clean it proper. not having this point cleaned has prevented alot of bus from starting over the years. mel 4104 |
John Rigby (65.112.227.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:31 am: | |
You could be mistaken about the hookup.you see originally the 04,s came with the possitive wire going to ground.I dont know how to tell you to check it ,if you have diconnected the batteies and hooked them back up.
Maybe mel can tell you.I would hate you to damage something.
John |
Stan (68.150.140.91)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 2:40 pm: | |
To check the polarity, try hooking one battery to the starter only and see if the engine turns the right way. The right way being counter clockwise. Don't have any other battery cables conected to the starter when you try this. |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
The starter doesn't care if its positive or negative ground...it will only turn the direction it was designed to.... polarity doesn't affect direction of roataion... |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 6:03 pm: | |
Jim, while you are correct that starter doesn't really care if it is negative ground or positive ground, it must be wired properly or it will not work properly, a DC motor will spin in the oposite direction if wired wrong, whether positive or negative ground.
Brian |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
As far as a starter on a '54 gm tdh5105 is concerned.... ive had it hooked up... both ways... and the engine cranks... but ive got the old generator disconnected, so no damage to it. The starter will only spin the direction it was built for....the solenoid may not work as good as it should. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 6:48 pm: | |
To reverse the rotation of a DC motor you must reverse the field leads in relation to the armature leads. Since this is an internal connection, you can not reverse the starter rotation by simply reversing the DC input leads.
Richard |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:02 am: | |
The only way your starter would crank your engine over, with the polarity reversed, is if it had a Dyer drive mechanism... as opposed to a Bendix drive mechanism, and since your engine spun it was a Dyer drive.
In that case the starter will engage the ring gear, but the starter will be spinning in the opposite direction, therefore your engine spun, but reverse rotation.
The solenoid will work just as well, being a simple electromagnet but the edges of both the drive gear and the ring gear are chamfered to ease engagement in the direction of normal rotation...
Sooo, a Dyer drive starter WILL engage the flywheel, but it may grind a bit till the drive gear and ring gear are syncronized.
Richard, you are confusing AC and DC motors... you had me scatching my head in wonder for a second.
Sooo, I went out and did an experiment, I attached leads to my generator's starter and spun it up using reverse polarity.
As I suspected it spun easily, but the Bendix gear, being spin sensitive, did not engage.
I love DC motors, and the fact that they reverse is VERY handy.
It is the basis for the electric pantry slide out and converting couch I'm going to have in my coach
Brian |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:19 am: | |
Assuming that the old dog has some working gauges and that they were previously wired to match the polarity of the charging system, simply connect a battery, turn on the switch and see if the gauges work correctly or backwards. if the discharge / charge gauge reads in reverse when the lights are turned on just reverse the battery connections.
As far as the starter only making a click goes sounds like a worn starter solenoid not making contact, the original 4104 starters were great because all you need is a crescent wrench to through the started in gear.
The following connections and grounds on a 4104 all need to be checked and cleaned, battery cables and ends, battery cable connection to the chassis and the terminal post in the battery compartment, battery cable and connections to the terminal under the bus above the drive shaft on the fire wall and again on engine side of the fire wall behind the transmission, the ground strap/s that connects the engine to the chassis (firewall) and the connections at the starter including the starter ground strap.
Also a good many of these older coach's have a significant voltage drop to the starter due to rivet oxidation, the cure is to run a ground cable from the batteries to the starter, most that I've seen used welding cable, and a few even built a battery box above the transmission and put the starting battery in the engine compartment, you would be surprised how small a battery it takes to start a 6-71 when the cables are only 4 feet long.
The starter in your bus will only turn in one direction regardless of how the external wires are connected to the battery as it is not a reversing DC motor.
Tom C |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:13 am: | |
I have never heard of a non-reversing DC motor.
Go connect your coach starter reverse polarity, if it is Bendix drive the starter will spin but reversed and the bendix will not engage.
Physics dictates that electromotive force in DC flows in one direction from the negative side of the battery to the positive, if you reverse polarity on a DC motor you are changing the direction the current takes through the motor reversing the spin of that motor.
Brian |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:38 am: | |
Here's the research/results. 5 starters: 1 for a ford f150 pickup, 1 for a chevy 6.2 diesel suburban, 1 for a caterpillar 3406, 1 for a DD671 (opposite rotation, spare for my tdh5105) and 1 for a DD8v71 (standard rotation, spare for my mci9). Used our shop set of booster batteries: 2 caterpilar 8d's. Changing polarity did not make the starter turn the opposite rotation....tested. Tried hooking them up positve ground and negative ground....they only turn the way they were designed to. |
Larry (208.18.102.86)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
What they are trying to say has to do with the mechanics of it, (AC an DC motors can be reversed) starters on cars and trucks are wired internally in such a manner that they will not reverse.
As motors (DC) on equipment such as hydraulic pumps are treated the same. Some golf carts with internal combustion engines are wired to reverse the starter so the engine can be started in reverse to change directions.
Just picture what would happen to most engines in a car or truck if they were able to be reversed by simply reversing polarity of the battery connection.
Are all the buses with left hand rotation wasting hundreds of dollars buying a special starter? Of course not. |
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Starter motors only turn in their design direction. This is because the motor has no permanent magnets -- the magnetic field is generated by windings. In the case of starter motors, the field windings are in series with the armature, which is connected by means of brushes. This type of motor is often called a "universal motor" because it will run on DC but it will also run on AC. This, incidentally, is the type of motor found in most power tools, which is why, in a pinch, you can run your circular saw with a couple of batteries.
If you reverse the input polarity, the field polarity and armature polarity are both reversed, and the effect "cancels out" -- the motor always turns one way. To reverse the motor electrically, you need to get inside it and swap the brush (or armature) leads or swap the field leads (but not both -- that would, again, cancel out).
I hope this makes things clear, but, if a diagram would help, do a search on "series wound motor" and I'm sure you'll come up with one.
-Sean |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:58 pm: | |
Our shop guys thought i was nuts when i started dragging starters in for this little test....we got a good kick out of it.... too bad i couldn't have gotten any bets covered... i think i'd have made some $$$$ |
BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.99.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:05 pm: | |
Sean, very well put, you not only cleared up the matter succinctly, you shed light on remaining question marks I had concerning this topic.
I went out a bit ago and hooked jumpers to the starter in my coach, and lo and behold I discovered just what Richard, Jim, Tom and you were saying was indeed true.
I had hooked up my gen starter last night but in the dim light I mistook what I was seeing, my appologies to you civilized gentlemen.
I do lots of experimenting with dc motors with permanent magnets, and the fact that THEY reverse is basis for a couple of my designs for my coach.
I've built an accuator that will be attached to a steel framed leather couch, at the press of a button it will slide out and convert to a bed... flipping the switch in the opposite direction will retract it back into a couch.
I also have a DC motor with a reduction, I will be installing a sprocket and chain on it, and that will be running to an idler sprocket, both idler and motor will be mounted solidly to the floor.
I will be welding brackets on either side of the chain and attaching the brackets to the bottom of a slide out pantry...
Brian |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.112.149)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
Guys,
Please.
It took me way more time than I wanted to spend here cleaning up all the drivel. Stick to the topic and quit calling each other names either directly or through innuendo or I'll pull the whole thread.
I appreciate your cooperation and further quality input. Thank you, gentlemen.
Ian
www.busnut.com |