| Author | Message | ||
| Ron Leiferman (Ron_In_Sd) (12.111.217.5)
Rating: |
I am at the point in my life that I am looking at purchasing a inverter. I am looking at a 2500 watt unit but I am wonder which would be better a 24v unit or a 12v unit. The coach is currently 24 volts. Most of the lights in the bus will be 12 volt units. I am thinking about 24 volt for the inverter and using a 24v to 12v converter for the 12 volt needs. That way I can charge the house system via the coach alternator while going down the road. BTW... I have the coach air still install and working great so I am not going to need to heavy 4000 watts for A/C. Also how big of bank of batteries are people installing? I have a good source for 2-3 year old batteries from a telecom install. They have always been on a float charge except right before a generator startup. They had a large bank of batteries incase the generator failed to start they could get another generator on site. Now they installed a second generator and they are reducing the amount of batteries. | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (209.210.116.234)
Rating: N/A |
We still have not decided upon the bank voltage in the planned Crown Super Coach conversion. Still waiting to see what voltage we get when the diesel fired space heater is purchased. Also with higher bank voltage you may be able to run smaller cable which is a little bit cheaper. | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.218) Rating: N/A |
Your first concern will be supplying the Inverter. You will use Twice (2 times) the amps to supply a 12v inverter than you would supplying a 24v inverter. That translates into HUGE cables supplying 12vdc to the inverter ($$$$$) compared to moderate sized cables supplying the lower amperage to the 24v inverter. All this is figured in with your needs for the coach but Personally, I beleive it is a good move to keep the amperage down as low as you can, making the 24v supply source a favorable choice. you can go to this site and go to the bottom of the page, in the inverter manual, there are work sheets to figure what load the coach will need and helps you find the inverter size and battery size you may need. http://www.aaaffordablesolar.com/2.html A rough figure will go something like this.... 50AMP from INVERTER= 225AMP from 24VDC battery supply. 50AMP from INVERTER= 450AMP from 12VDC battery supply. I will let others chime in here as I am still working on my own system and still learning but this should give you an idea to think about for your question. Good Luck "Imagine" cd | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.23.10) Rating: N/A |
24 for the system with a Vanner for any small 12v loads . Sine wave inverter only , if your running the air cond's. Much of the interior lighting can be 120v thru the inverter , much brighter and quieter than with dinky 12V florescents. FAST FRED | ||
| Randall Hays (69.4.194.112)
Rating: N/A |
As said 225 amp for 24 volt=2 12 volt batteries, 450 amp for 12 volt=2 12 volt batteries, 12 volt inverters are less expensive and Vanner will let you charge 12 volt house batteries if done right Battery cable doesn't have to be 40 ft long if you put the Vanner and inverter just on the other side of the wall from the battery area. To each his own depending upon ones budget, mine has to be the birdy way (cheap cheap) | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.54.94)
Rating: N/A |
24v is best way to go. Was a time when 24v inverters sold for a premium, but that is no longer the case. I am using 8 (2 parallel strings) of Telecom AGM's(127ah) w/TRACE PS2500, 500 watts of solar, but have not really put the batts to the test yet. As FF says, use the 110v flourescent bulbs for really great lighting at very little consumption. I am using all flourescent in the bus, and 1 of the 13 watt fl. bulbs illuminates better than 3 12v, 30w tubes. | ||
| jc (65.67.220.55)
Rating: N/A |
FWIW- Keep your inverter as close to your battery bank as possible preferably in the compartment next to the batteries. Use the cable size called for in your inverter installation manual (or larger). If you can afford AGM batteries go for it, we have been so pleased with their performance that we now use them as standard equipment. Johnc | ||
| Neil (148.78.243.26)
Rating: N/A |
We have been using our coach full time for 8 years. we have a 2500 Watt 24 volt inverter and a equilzer that I pull the 12 volt from.no problems. We supply the inverter with 8 6volt golf cart batteries.We also have 2 120 watt solar panels to keep the batt. charged. We seldom need to run the generator. Neil | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.41)
Rating: N/A |
I did mine in 24v, charging the Trojans from the bus alternator thru a three stage regulator. I know of no way to improve on that system. I chose to not have even one 12v light in the bus, why would you even want to if you have an inverter, other than to try to copy somebodys stick and staples job? | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.52) Rating: N/A |
I designed 24v source for the inverter, 12vdc from the converter (24vdc / 12vdc). I have a combination of 12vdc lites / Halogen "puck" style lights on a transformer 120vac to 12vac (DIMMABLE), (in every room)with 12vdc alternate source. 24vdc florescents on dual feed, ac feed to 24vac then changed to dc, switched between this feed and alternate 24vdc bus supply in the power supply box. Also two 120v lites, bed room ceiling florescant and 120vac bathroom mirror Halogen lights. All rooms have a florescent 12vdc light. The plan was to meet every contingency, if on AC and now battery power, I have lights. If on battery and no AC, I have lights. If on the road and the inverter fails, I have lights. If broke down, and the inverter fails, I have lights until the battery goes down. Genset power available too but this is looking for a real bad vacation if all this happens. I learned from a big company(that I worked for), that if you depend on one system to work 100% of the time (as they did), you will be in the dark some of the time (as they were). As I was trying to develope my system, I designed it to prefer a 120vac source first(shore/Inv), then battery/inverter second, then can go either battery or inverter/gen. If all else failed and engine running, the bus 24vdc systems feed my 24v dc lighting throughout. All work through a, not so complicated switch system/power supply or battery supply. Yes, I over engineered the system for preferred sources, the contingincy concern was studied and I found I had already built it into the system. It was far easier to just run the wire as built than to have to run additional wire later after built! I think this is why people develope multi voltage systems in their conversions. I do have a stick'n staples job also, and it is only 12v lighting, pref is of course shore power through the converter, secondary is the battery but alternate is the vehicle alternator. It is not bad to plan a good system if it can be kept relatively simple. I prefer not to use candles unless for the right "MOOD!" lol "Imagine" cd | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A |
I went thru some of that in planning too, but some of the answers were different. My entire bus was a 24volt, including headlight voltage reducers, so my 12v needs were nearly insignificant. The readily available, non heat producing 120v lights were ideal (please keep a watch on those Halogen puck lights, I gave mine all away after a friends bus caught fire from them). I had a household fridge, so if the inverter quit, I had to run the genset or get to a power pole anyway until I got a new inverter. Being an airplane guy, I loved redundant systems, and even put in an "extra" 24v inverter "Just in case". I later decided that the almost non existant failure rate of inverters, it was not worth the effort and removed it. After all, a simple genset start would solve the problems, and at the rate the diesel set sipped fuel, I could run for days while looking for a new inverter. Candles and flashlights allowed me to sleep peacefully - as well as the peace of mind that I did not have a 12v system to cause troubles. | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.176.86) Rating: N/A |
The voltage is NOT the detirminant of a fine lifestyle , Either 12 or 24 willwork just fine. The biggest help you can do is use QUALITY batterys and a system so large that you only cycle from 100% full to 60% full. With a good monitor (Link or whatever) Solar or the PP to push the charge from 90% back up to 100% frequently, Hydrocaps to lessen watering needs , and monthly equalizing , many QUALITY batt sets can last for over a decade , keeping you happy the whole time. Its NOT the voltage that counts , its the entire SYSTEM that you install to monitor & recharge correctly that counts. Works for me, FAST FRED | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.33)
Rating: N/A |
True, but I could not find a washing machine and dryer that ran well on 12v, or a fridge that would keep ice cream from melting or the beer really cold either. THAT would be a major crimp in my lifestyle and a determining factor both. | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.236) Rating: N/A |
Hey ff You said "The voltage is NOT the detirminant of a fine lifestyle , Either 12 or 24 willwork just fine." Then you said "a system so large that you only cycle from 100% full to 60% full." But we know now, that if a system is taxed by crippling it with a 12vDC inverter, the battery system, no matter how large, will be suffering an incredible amount of amperage to supply the bus, and we know that will be DOUBLE the AMPERES that the 24v inverter would see. Anyone with a battery storage space problem in a bus for batteries storage, has not a chance to meet your 1oo to 6o % discharge theory, even with the best batteries because the AMP sucking 12 inverter needs all it can get for even the light loads on a large conversion. We need to be careful how we look at these systems because there are too many people that take this information and build on it. As I said in one of pre-posts, it is BEST to keep the amps down, and that would be the 24v inverter but I still believe the battery bank will be a concern no matter what because of bulk size. Would you agree? "Imagine" cd | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.21.218) Rating: N/A |
An inverter usually is the hignest load placed on a batt set , but with the ner pure DC rooftop air cond carbunkles ,that may change. To keep batts happy BOTH the discharge RATE and DEPTH must be monitored. Taking a huge drain from a small batset will kill them early , even if the total drain is not down to 50%. 10% of the batts cap C10 (as figured from 20 hour discharge table) can be used without having a rate of discharge that harms the batt set. With many inverters taking 100A - 150A during operation , it requires at least a half ton of batts to assure not destroying the set early. Many batts can take a bit if a high rate , so 5 min to run the microwave isnt the hassle, but an air cond , or an attempt at cooking could. FAST FRED | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.22)
Rating: N/A |
Somewhat true, but lets also consider that a Heart for instance only draws 0.12A when idle, which is whenever the household fridge and stuff is not actually running, etc. The inverter rarely if ever draws 100A to 150A during operation, it only takes what you are demanding, and does that at a 93% efficiency rating basis. With four Trojan L16 batteries, I could run normal household fridge and lights and usual stuff off the inverter for days without a recharge. I do agree that most people try to save on batteries by buying too little of a bank, then get themselves in trouble in trying to not run the genset while parked away from power for extended periods, sure makes short life on batteries. | ||
| Gary Carter (68.25.97.14) Rating: N/A |
It really makes no difference if you run 12 or 24 volts. True the wire size is the same but the battery requirements are the same. Some of the above posts seem to indicate you need less battery with 24 volts and that is not true. If you are producing 10 amps of 120vac from your invertor with two batteries, this means on a 12vdc you are inputting 100 amps and on 24vdc you are inputting 50 amps. In the first case you have your batteries on in parrell and each is producing 50 amps. With 24 volts you have the batteries in series and both batteries are still producing 50 amps. BTW DC florecents tubes are the same as you buy for your 120 volt system. It makes no difference if it is 12/24 fixture or a 120vac fixture. Takes less power to run them on 12/24dc than using an invertor due to the loss of conversion. | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.46)
Rating: N/A |
But Gary, he said his bus was a 24v. In that case I would say it does make a difference, as he can charge his house batteries while driving in the day, instead of running the genset. He can also run his AC unit directly from his inverter during driving that way also. He could of course change to a 12v alternator, or easier yet add on a 12v alternator to run the 12v inverter. Kinda depends. The flourescents we were talking about I think, were the screw in bulb type available these days. These made plenty of light for me and were very low in electrical useage. I never really sat down and figured out the differences between them and the 12/24 types though. | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert) (65.248.194.177)
Rating: N/A |
warning to all on those halogen puck lights! They can start fires. I have heard of two house just in the past couple of weeks that have burnt and have a freind that just had his house almost catch fire due to them! Be careful and dont leave them on when you are not around. | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.200) Rating: N/A |
I think I was the one that started the Halogen "Puck" light conversation. In the early design of my conversion, all the fears and concerns of heat and possible fire fears were not being voiced yet. I designed MINIMAL amounts of these lights after I read on the package about specific mounting instructions because of "HEAT" concerns. I wanted them because they were able to DIM and I desired that effect. My Halogen "Puck" lights will be mounted on aluminum and not near (within reason) of any flamable material. Now that these lights are installed, I see the florescents can now be dimmed. This sounds like it could have possibilities. The unerving thought for me comes to mind when I worked at the dispatch center, they had spent an UNBELEIVABLE AMOUNT OF MONEY ($$$$) on florescents lighting and very expensive dimmers. But after using them, they found the dimmers were burning up the lamps so we were not allowed to use them-go figure! I think if I use the Halogen "puck" type lights a lot, I might convert them to florescents, especially if a danger of fire does exist. It seems to be one of those things where the information came out after the install, besides, those Halogens sure look nice in those expensive factory built models, LOLOLOL "Imagine Your Dreams" cd | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.176.242) Rating: N/A |
Most boat stuff is now Zeon instead of halogen..Almost same light for the watt and 1/20 the heat. 10,000 hour bulbs , and can be purchased with dimmers. Beware the dimmers are cheap chinese crap and will cut your electric bill at the expense of huge radio AM noise. Otherwise they work great & look nice , FAST FRED | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.49)
Rating: N/A |
I never heard of Zeon lights, neither has Google. Do you have a link for that type lighting? | ||
| R Johnstone (Chilebrew) (67.202.13.8)
Rating: N/A |
Try xenon | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
I think he meant "xenon" which is the inert gas inside the envelope. Xenon promotes longer filament life than halogen gasses and conducts less heat to the envelope. Xenon bulbs are available in many of the same sizes as halogens and are a direct plug-in replacement. -Sean | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
I see Chilebrew and I hit enter at the same time... I meant to say also that xenon lamps (="bulbs") are available in both 12 and 24 volt. If you already have an investment in a boatload (pun intended) of "puck" lights, xenon lamps are a good way to reduce the heat and thus fire danger. BTW, if you originally purchased "zero clearance" pucks, the fire danger should be nil. If you purchased pucks that require clearance, but then installed them against inflammable materials (or anything else, really), then shame on you... -Sean | ||
| madbrit (67.136.97.20) Rating: N/A |
Guys, I think you will find it's Zenon lighting, not zeon. I must be real lucky, not having to worry over 12 or 24 volt set ups. I only have 12 volt and am quite happy with using that to power most things. My engine alternator is 130amp, my genset is 12.5kw and I will be running as much equipment on propane as I can. Many happy RVers use this system and why should I want to buck it, just because I can? My good neighbor has been Rving for years and has a 32ft Rexall with a 6.5 genset, runs 2 roof airs, has an electric blanket for those cold nights, runs his satelite TV, coffee pot and anything else he wants from his 2500watt inverter and keeps things topped up with one average sized solar panel and the occassional use of the generator unless he is at a campsite. He survives quite well dry camping for 6 weeks in Quartzsite using the a/c and the electric blanket when neccessary. KISS is the theory I want to use and all these tried and tested methods of cooking, heating, cooling, etc are just too convenient not to use. I want to have this conversion operating as quick as I can, not build the most complicated vehicle on the road. Last year I looked at a beautiful MCI conversion which had been taken in as a trade-in at one of those high priced executive sales lots and it was only $60K. It looked gorgeous from a distance, then I noticed the cracks around the caps and the cheap stainless bay door replacement panels, pop riveted on, yuk!! I had this feeling they wanted it gone, I then found out it was all electric with unlabelled breaker boxes everywhere and no schematics. It looked like it could be a total nightmare. The heat pump took up the whole front bay and my wife really loved the 6" gap to walk around the foot of the bed, NOT!!! Definately not a simple conversion to live with. Peter. | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Sean, Thanks for the information on the xenon lamps. Would I find them at an RV store or a home lighting store and what wattage lamps should I ask for? These sound like what I should use, at least for task lighting. I still like indirect fluorescent for general lighting. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Peter -- No, it's "xenon" just as I wrote it, not "Zenon". Xenon is an atomic element, atomic number 54, symbol "Xe" and is a gas at room temperature. It is one of the "noble" or "inert" gases, and is used as the envelope filler in this type of lamp -- see my description above. The lamp is otherwise a standard incandescent type -- not to be confused with High-Intensity Discharge (HID) lights, which also use xenon gas. BTW, I agree with your KISS theory, but, if your bus came with a 24v alternator and starter, as many of ours did, then the whole 24/12 volt issue is something that must be grappled with. Sam -- best thing to do, in my opinion, is to find a halogen-type light fixture that you are happy with. It does not matter whether it's a 12-v or 24-v type, but I would stay away from the direct 120vac ones, as these bulbs may be harder to replace. After you have selected your fixture, find out what type lamp it takes (for example, T1-3/4 Bi-Pin), then do a search for that type of lamp in xenon on the 'net, or use a catalog such as Allied or Newark. I don't think you would find the lamps in a normal hardware store. Select a bulb rated for the voltage you intend to use, 12 or 24. Then throw away (or give away) the halogen bulbs that came with the fixtures, and use the xenons instead. You'll have xenon lighting at a fraction of the cost of yacht-market fixtures. FWIW, I did something similar, although I am not using xenon (as yet). I am using all 24-volt lighting in my coach, but Expo (the high-end designer unit of Home Depot) had a good price on nice Hera cabinet ("puck") lights. These units came lamped for 12v, and I just pulled all the lamps and stuck 24v halogens in them. As for wattage, get whatever suits you, but make sure you don't exceed the maximum wattage rating of the fixture itself. I think you will find the xenons generally come in lower wattage selections than the equivalent bulb in halogen. 5, 10, and 15 are common values for the small bi-pin ones, whereas halogens in that size generally come in 10, 15, 20, and 25. HTH, -Sean | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.97.20)
Rating: N/A |
Sean, It can be either. It depends upon who is talking about who's bulb. If you search for Xenon or Zenon, you will find references to halogen and X/Zenon bulbs. Since the original post refered to a Zeon bulb, my referal was the closest. (grin). The 24volt thing is not any problem at all. As I said, KISS, and leave the bus sytems 24volts and the house system 12volts. Add a 130amp altenator to the motor for on the road charging and you have a simple solution for both systems. I was converting a bus and it had a defective big alternator, and all I was going to do was install two smaller units, a 24volt and a 12volt. Now I am converting a truck, I only have the 12volt to start with. Peter. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Peter, I can't find any reference anywhere to a "zenon" bulb, except numerous hits on pages where it is an obvious misspelling of "xenon." Many, many people make this error, but that does not make it correct. I think you will find many other commonly misspelled words will return similar hit rates. The chemical is called "xenon" -- there is no alternative spelling. Of course, that's not to say someone out there has not created a trade name "Zenon" (I couldn't find one) the same way KOA deliberately misspells "Kampground". If there is such a trade name, though, it could be for anything -- they would have no legal need to actually use xenon in their product. Again, regarding KISS, I view adding another alternator to my engine as much more complex than simply using 24 volts for my house system, but that is, perhaps, just me. -Sean | ||
| Adame (129.82.229.195) Rating: N/A |
I have both xenon and halogen under counter lights under my home kitchen wall cabinets. They are both dimmable, both produce nice light, both fixture types are similar. The xenon lite fixtures are noticably cooler to the touch. I'm using 12 vdc to power all of my (bus) house systems except for the microwave and the air conditioner. The microwave is powered by a Vanner invertor. The air is powered by either the 5.5kw generator or shore power. I chose 12vdc because I already had a couple of 1.5kw vanner invertor/ chargers. I charge the battery bank 3 ways: 130 amp dedicated alternator thru a Balmar regulator whenever the engine is running. There are a couple of 75 watt panels on the roof with provisions for 2 more, and if the panels don't keep up I can fire up the generator to run the charger. I really don't have much use for 110vac unless I need to run the air conditioner. The fridge runs off 12vdc. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.54) Rating: N/A |
If my next bus happens to be a 24v bus, no question, my house bank will also be 24v. As it is, my bus is all 12v. However, I think 24v is superior in many ways. Check out JCWhitney for Xenon lamps. The street scene uses them now and prices are reasonable. As for spellings, Google knows best! 1,760 hits for zenon lamp 123,000 hits for xenon lamp 753 for zenon bulb 82,600 for xenon bulb 340,000 for zenon 1,720,000 for xenon Scott |
