| Author | Message | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 559 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 97.91.68.252  Rating: N/A |
I am looking at a 30K BTU "Ventless" propane heater that is on Craig's list. I think they are also sold by Sears and require no chimney or outside venting. Designed for use in a garage I think, I am wondering if they would be suitable for bus heat? Currently I have no propane furnace and only have heat strips and electic heaters to try and keep warm. We have only used it a couple times in the winter so it's not critical but would be nice to have. Thanks for any input, John | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1597 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.227.198.148  Rating: N/A |
Lotsa' condensation, methinks....plus needing lotsa' ventilation. FWIW  RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on October 14, 2011) | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1557 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.123.74  Rating: N/A |
Big John I have used the ventless heaters and don't like them because of what R C said. too much condensation inside. I would use the electric,one for convience 2 for safety. I do not like ventless even in a house because of that VENTLESS factor. Yes they say they are fool-proof but you won't know when it will happen. Stay electric or a vented heater! My experience speaking! Gomer | ||
| Gary Seay (Gdude)
Registered Member Username: Gdude Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2010 Posted From: 216.67.43.109  Rating: N/A |
As already mentioned, STAY AWAY from ventless propane heaters! I know personally of a couple that had a Primus hydronic heating system in their RV. It was installed in one of the bays with only one 4" vent in the bay to the outside. This was installed according to manufactures specs. Needless to say, they are no longer with us. They got carbon monoxide poisoning over a long period of time. The levels of carbon monoxide were low enough that it didn't set off the detectors. But was enough to make them sick. I just don't know how they can get away with selling them as a permanent appliance? | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 560 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 97.91.68.252 Rating: N/A |
Well, I am glad I asked. As with everything "what you see is not necessarily what you get". I have a used 40K furnace that came out of a wrecked 5th wheel. I was planning on testing that and using it in the bus, just thought this might be an easier fix. Thanks gentlemen, John | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1598 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.218.50.31 Rating: N/A |
For my "money" a Webasto type heater is the cat's pajamas; lotsa' heat, cheap to operate (relatively) and easy to maintain. FWIW RCB | ||
| Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Registered Member Username: Sommersed Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 148.63.161.138 Rating: N/A |
I full time in my MCI5A, and am a dedicated boondocker. Haven't been in a RV park in five or six years. One thing that all the people that I know that are full time doorknockers is that a ventless heater of some type is mandatory. There are ten's of thousands if not millions of us full timers out here that would have nothing but ventless. Ed USN (Ret.) | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 98.216.80.83  Rating: N/A |
Ed,Where do you dump your holding tanks? | ||
| Derrick Thomas (Thomasinnv)
Registered Member Username: Thomasinnv Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2010 Posted From: 67.142.130.21  Rating: N/A |
I been using one for years with no problems. the old bus is drafty enough I don't worry about it. I also have a CO detector inside and have never had it go off. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 266 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: N/A |
I've been using ventless heaters for many years both in my house and in the bus with no problems at all, you need a good detector and with proper set up they are safe and efficient, we all know people that claim to know somebody that died as a result of using the heaters and thats probably true, I personally know of several people that died as a result of house fires and even more from auto accidents. I feel that the problems refered too with the heaters is more lack of proper installation than the design of the heater. There are basically 2 styles of heaters commonly found, the "blueflame" and the pad type, the blueflame style has a burner that shows a visible flame and in my opinion wastes a lot of fuel, the pad style has from 1 to several ceramic pads mounted and the burner heats the pads and they radiate the heat into the room, this kind is my preference and seems to use far less fuel. I've heated a 1500sq ft home with one unit that had 3 pads and was rated at 15K for many winters with no more than the second pad lit, I don't ever remember having to light the third pad, in this area with electricity marginal at best we need something that doesn't require electricity to work and you'll see many, many of the ventless heaters in use up here with no problems at all, in the winter the air is dry and the heaters do put moisture into the air but we welcome it as it makes the house much more comfortable, right now I'm using a wood/coal stove but have a ventless ceramic heater as backup. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 972 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15  Rating: N/A |
Right after the BIG war when auto production got back into full swing....along with auto RACING, my Dad's 60x60 ft. garage was a beehive of men & a blur of machines & wrenches. When it got cold these old coots would fire up the Okie Fireplace for warmth. You take an 18 inch round metal oil drain pan & pour a gallon of methanol in it, light it carefully from the edge & that 3600 sq\ft building was warm in about 3 mins. The condensation made for great "Jack Frost" on the windows too ! I've seen guys use them in Ice Fishing shacks, barns, & in the pits on cold nights from Ohio to California, I've even kept Igloo's warm in -30 temps. Ventilation ventilation ventilation. Always been curious how those ceramic heaters can produce more heat than the energy they consume ..... or so some would have us believe. (not pickin on you Cody, but if you were Dal I would be!) Saw a machine once that was supposed to produce more than it consumed. The guy had a pump & a tank, the tank was lined with vanes to impede the flow of mineral oil that was being pumped thru it. The claim was that the friction caused by the vanes produced more heat in the oil than the motor used in electricity to pump the oil. The tank was warm to the touch & radiated it's heat. As it turned out, the Attorney General's office said it produced no more heat than a 6 slice Toaster. If you want cheap heat find a woman, if you want expensive heat find a married woman if you want cheap heat & companionship get a dog . | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1294 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.48.215.44 Rating: |
First off, lets everybody re-read the post dated Sept. 19 "Why you should pay EXTRA attention to your generator operation." FIVE PEOPLE WERE KILLED because they set a portable generator outside their RV, ran a cord in through a bay door, and went to sleep! Enough Carbon Monoxide entered the RV thru the gap in the bay door to kill all of them in their sleep. People's lungs absorb Carbon Monoxide in preference to Oxygen, which makes it even more dangerous. I am a licensed Heating and Air Conditioning contractor, I own a bus, and I DON'T have a ventless heater, for the following reasons: 1. These heaters are made with an Oxygen depletion sensor, which is SUPPOSED to shut them off when the Oxygen in the space they are heating gets depleted to a certain point, which is before the space is unable to support life. When the Oxygen sensor in your car wears out, the check engine light comes on, what about the sensor in one of these heaters? 2. ALL of the combustion byproducts are exhausted into the room. Said byproducts are mostly Carbon Dioxide and water vapor, as long as the heater works properly, with the water vapor being about as acid (same ph) as vinegar. As many of us have foam insulation in our buses, they are a lot tighter, and have much less square footage (less available Oxygen) compared to a house. 3. The radiant heat given off by these heaters feels good, but it also heats the things it is pointed at, and can quickly overheat thin wood or leather, etc. surfaces. 4. Since "...living in an area with undependable electricity..." is mentioned as a reason to have a ventless indoors, how does one of those heaters sense oxygen depletion? There are several inaccuracies in one of the posts above, and I don't know what ventless heaters have to do with car accidents, or wood-coal stoves, but we shouldn't wander on a subject as dangerous as this! As both an exposed flame ventless heater, and a ceramic (pad) heater have no vent, all of the gas burned, and all of the heat produced is kept within the space, their efficiency is exactly equal. Causes for the "house fires, and the car accidents" posted above don't have anything to do with ventless heaters, weren't mentioned or explained either, but I do know that most of both them could have been prevented! Ventless radiant heaters are great to sit outside with on a cool evening, but in my opinion, not to be taken inside! G | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1561 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.123.74 Rating: |
thank YOU GEORGE for confirming my experiences too. I would not use one just for that reason either. Gomer | ||
| Gary Seay (Gdude)
Registered Member Username: Gdude Post Number: 74 Registered: 6-2010 Posted From: 74.124.96.202 Rating: N/A |
Well said George!! I myself would never tell people that it is fine and everybody uses them with no problems. The people I know personally, they lived in a very cold climate and this happened during a 4 week cold spell where temps dropped down to -20. That ventless heater ran pretty much non stop and sickened these folks over a period of time. They had a carbon monoxide detector in the RV that never went off. The sheriff and corners determined the detectors worked and it was a build up of carbon monoxide over time. I would suggest getting CO detectors with the LED display so you can monitor the levels. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 267 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
George you're in the business of selling furnaces so I would be disappointed if you were an advocate of something that didn't line your pockets properly. If you will take the time to read my post I said that if a unit was properly installed with detectors then it was a safe and efficient way to heat. These units have been available and in use for decades can you not only cite but prove the statistics for the rate of fatalities involved? I have no contest with the people that died as a result of running a generator outside their open bedroom window or bay door, that wasn't the smartest thing they ever did. Any heating device has to be used in accordance with the safety measures cited in the installation pamplet but as we all know those get discarded quickly, would anyone feel better using an electric toekick heater that has a major lint buildup around the blower cage, I know of at least 3 buses that burned when those caught fire, one of the fires resulted in a fatality and that is just my personal experience because I took on the task of doing the rebuild and repair on all three of those buses, I'm sure there were many more than that but I can only report from personal experience, not personal opinion. If you take the time to read the installation manuals and particularily the caution page you will see that it addresses placement of combustable items as is normal for any heating device, common sence also dictates a certain distance for the safe placement but I've seen electric toekick heaters under the edge of a bed with the bedspread hanging down over the front of it and countless carpets pushed up against the front grills of heaters of all sorts, I even know of one woodstove mounted in a bus in the guise of a fireplace that has a fan forced exhaust for the evacuation of the smoke and fumes,, can you imagine the result of a hard braking situation with a cozy roaring fire going? I'm sure the installation manual said to not use the fireplace while in motion. I'm not sure I understand the relationship between undependable electricity and carbon monoxide detectors, as I would hope you knew,, battery units have been available for many years now and yes, the condition of the batteries must be checked regularily. All of the concerns addressed are covered in the operational manual of a ventless heater, I just took the time to review the one that came with mine ( I have 3 with only 2 installed, one in the bus and one in the house), all 3 manuals address the concerns and how to properly assure enough air for the unit, placement of combustible objects, detectors and ventilation, so I am surprised by the lack of accurate information in regards to this subject, accutually I'm not surprised at all, we all know somebody that knew somebody that had heard something bad about something else, and maybe even saw elvis at some point at a 7-11. (Message edited by cody on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
As a side note on ph, the ph of the water vapor discharged is generally around 7 which is normal for water, vinegar has a ph of around 3 and is highly acidic.The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8. Just a side note,,chemical engineering degree (1979) from michigan tech, not a trade school. ( I found it more entertaining to acquire degree's as long as the state was willing to fund my endeavors and found it even remotely related to my career with them, classrooms were more fun that convict wrassling or high speed chases, I had already tryed those. Just a side note. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 269 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
This is what soured me on high speed chases, darryl was my partner,, http://www.odmp.org/officer/11007-trooper-darryl-m-rantanen and made the decision to pursue the school option as long as the state seemed willing to foot the bill as long as it related in some way to my work and I maintained a given grade point average so I spent a period of time creating interesting framed wallpaper. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 271 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
After going to bed and thinking about my answer I realized I left a couple of areas still open to misinterpretation, this relates to the difference between an open flame and a catalytic heater, a furnace is concidered an open flame device and requires proper discharge of the combustion byproducts thru a vent,, there are basically two types of 'ventless heaters' as I stated, one is the open flame variety commonly refered to as a 'blueflame' heater and is normally used in a garage type setting,, these are not recommended for use in a habitable space, there is a subdivision of the ceramic pad heater that I should have mentioned, one is catalytic and the other simply an open flame heating a ceramic pad resulting in infrared or radiant heat, that type is also concidered an openflame type heater and required ventilation, the catalytic heater reduces the combustion byproducts into two main products, carbon dioxide and water vapor with trace amounts of several other chemicals including trace amounts of carbon monoxide, these heaters are concidered quite safe if installed correctly, the human body cannot and does not store for extended periods of time the trace levels of carbon monoxide, if carbon monoxide levels are found in measurable amounts it is from a different source or the units were not properly installed, the carbon dioxide emmissions of the catalytic conversion of the chemical byproducts are beneficitial to plants in the house and the water vapors released are generally found to be in the area of 6.9 to 7.1PH and are concidered safe for drinking if they were to be condenced back into liquid form, it is not possible to form vinegar from this type of a combustion process, nor is it possible to bring water into the 3PH range using a catalytic conversion. Furnace installers generally arn't concerned with the chemical application of their particular products, their primary concern generally is how many BTU's are required to raise the air temp in a given space to a comfortable living temperature given the type of fuel, cubic volume of the space and average temps of the seasonal varients and how to exhaust the combustion byproducts of the process in a safe manner, The example of the primus hydronic sytem that was mounted in a bay and supposedly properly vented shows how even the safest equipment can go horribly wrong, there may have been an open window above the vent or the wind direction may have carried the toxic fumes back into the vehicle, it's hard to say but it does happen, the safest heat source is a resistance heater such as an electric heater if properly used and maintained, no fumes and no combustion if combustable items are kept a safe distance away and the units cleaned periodically, any time combustion comes into play it can lead to problems regardless of how a person may try to make it safe. | ||
| Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Registered Member Username: Sommersed Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 148.63.161.138 Rating: N/A |
I once had a very acute reading meter with actual decimal point readings. As a test, I placed it over my ventless (blueflame) heater and could get no readings. Next I placed it over my propane stove, no readings. I returned the meter to its place on the wall next to me recliner, head high and while frying a steak that night, the meter howled at me. Moral of the story, don't burn your steak. Ed | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240  Rating: N/A |
Well I don't know whether to thank you guys or stand my ground and sticking with the Blue flame heater I have installed in the bus. I have used the heater while working inside the bus over the past few years, my only complaint is the location it needs to be to radiate the heat safely. Keeping it away from other combustible walls etc... is the question. My biggest complaint is having to walk past it with the heat it pukes out. ( way to much ) So after reading all the comments above I have convinced myself to remove it and use it somewhere else. I have a webasto feeding a heater box with fan and if it wasn't for our -40 degree winters with the occasional potential use of the blue flame heater planned anyway I'll remove it I'd hate to be "dead right " using it. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: N/A |
Any heater can be safe when used within the guidelines for it's purpose and installed according to it's particular instructional manual along with the common sence issues like having proper smoke detectors and proper carbon monoxide detectors, those should be used with any heating unit and require periodic service just like anything else. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1295 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.48.215.44 Rating: |
Well fellow nuts, I'm sorry I stirred this up, especially after I said "not to wander." I'm having trouble figuring out what lining my pockets, electric toe kick heaters and lint, woodstoves and hard braking, Elvis and a 7-11, convict 'wrassling,' high speed chases, and framed wallpaper have to do with ventless heaters? Since the instruction manuals are FINALLY mentioned, maybe somebody should read the first post again, instead of wandering off, because it specifically asks whether or not to buy a USED heater from Craig's list! Needless to say, the chances of the instruction manual coming with the used heater are slim. My main concern with a couple of years old ventless heater is not carbon monoxide poisoning as much as it is Oxygen depletion. This is why so many people have posted that their detector doesn't alarm near a ventless heater! Oxygen sensors are guaranteed to wear out in normal use! Once again, people's lungs absorb Carbon Monoxide in preference to Oxygen, which is why CO detectors will alarm at a very low parts per million level after a period of time (40PPM after 3 or 4 hours,) as well as a quick alarm at over a couple of hundred PPM. Kidde brand detectors just started advertising that their CO detectors are good for 7 years, instead of the 5 year life of the other brands. I just wouldn't recommend something with the potential for harm these have, with so many other safe options out there. G | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
George I'm not surprised at your confusion, please take the information I posted to any high school science teacher or probably any high school student and they can verify the information, it's 100% accurate. As far as lining your pockets what I'm refering to is your statement as to being a "licensed heating contractor" I've always advised following the money, what heating contractor would tell of the virtues of a heating appliance that can be bought and installed for a couple hundred dollars when the preference would be to sell a complete furnace installation for 4 to 6 thousand dollars. No heating contractor I know of approves of any ventless heaters and will take conciderable time in their shops telling you why you shouldn't have or use them but I've been to the camps and summer homes of most of the ones in this area and guess what they have? yep, ventless heaters. You became confused when I brought up the varables involved with other forms of heating and then because I know you always try to muddy the issues I stated the credentials used to validify by statements in regards to your wild claims about ventless heaters that can produce vinegar, I'm sorry I confused you, go back and read the statements closely and I'll explain any points your unclear on, one by one. I believe I was the one that mentioned properly installing the heaters, and I also recommended the use of detectors and proper serving of them. A carbon monoxide detector is not dependant on the units oxygen sensor for operation but, you are correct, the sensors do need periodic replacement, the service manuals also address this issue, if the manual doesn't come with the unit then I would strongly advice anyone to order one, often the manuals don't follow the units from sale to sale just as a bus manual doesn't often follow along with the buses, or am I wandering again. The decision on whether or not to buy a unit off craigs list is clearly up to the individual as it's difficult to determine the condition of the unit for sale on a bus board listing, I believe most of us including you took the gist of the post to be a question in regards to ventless heaters in general and not the particular one for sale and whether it came with a manual, your response was to completely disallow any uses of a unit of that sort and my response was to state why they can be good and give accurate information as to the benefits and drawbacks of the different varieties available, not to just make a blanket statement of why a person should buy one or not, I find it very frustrating when misinformation is given under the guise of "believe me because I'm a licensed contractor", the information I presented is easily verified and also very specific and I thought, presented in a way it could be easily understood. My advise would be to take the time to actually read about the different forms and applications for ventless heaters, also a crash course in the chemical components of the combustion byproducts of the various heaters might be enlightening, also the absorbtion rates of the body and how it reacts to those components and the the retention times of the absorbtion would probably be helpful. I don't mean to sound condesending but you have placed your self as an expert of some sort and I get very frustrated when I read complete nonsence given as information. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 274 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: N/A |
Let me reduce this to it's simplist form, a ventless heater is unlikely to kill anyone but the improper installation and servicing of one can certainly cause a death just as with anything else, proper maintanence is critical along with proper installation. There, that should be short, clear, and concise. | ||
| Gary Seay (Gdude)
Registered Member Username: Gdude Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2010 Posted From: 74.124.96.202 Rating: |
I have been doing a bunch of research on this topic because I think it is very important. So I figured I would post this on here for all of us bus nuts. Please read! First on safety. There is no such thing as a clean burning appliance of any type that burns everything and emits no toxic fumes in the combustion gases when using carbon based fuel, be that wood, petroleum, charcoal, or propane. Your RV furnace vents all combustion by products to the outside. Therefore no toxic gases or particulates are vented to the inside. This is just like the gas water heaters, dryers, and gas or oil fired furnaces in stationary homes. They are required to vent the combustion products to the outside. Having done considerable research on this subject, and having in hand the actual laboratory tests for several of the vent free heater types, and having gone over the accident reports from each of the main three types, vented, catalytic, and open flame, there are some cautions in order with all three to be used safely, and all three can, barring accident, armed with a bit of knowledge. First of all combustion by definition is oxidation of the substance combusted, so oxygen will be used up at different rates depending on the amount of combustion occurring. Most types of heaters can be used safely, assuming the user observes all the safety precautions of each type. Going from least amounts of toxic by products introduced into the rig by a properly functioning appliance, to most: Vented - none, Catalytic some, Open Flame heaters more. Vented heaters. The furnace that exhausts all of the exhaust gases outside. Many folks assume that it can be used indefinitely and you will be safe. Not true. Your furnace uses a combustion chamber made of sheet metal, and it has the gases inside, while air from your RV is circulated around that very hot sheet metal, heating the air that goes back into the RV. The gases inside the chamber are contained during heating of the chamber then vented outside. So far totally safe. However, many buy older used RVs to save money, and some have RVs they bought new ten years ago that they still use today of every type. If any part of the combustion chamber begins to rust and develops pinholes in the chamber, it will let the combustion gases mix with the air inside with results ranging from mild burning of the eyes, to low level CO poisoning, to death, depending on not only the amount of gases let in, but the physical health and makeup of the people inside. Your RV furnace should be removed and the combustion chamber inspected every few years at least, to assure it is still in good working order. Replace any heater with any pinholes/damage to the combustion chamber at all. Vented heaters are the safest, rarely fail but can with no owner knowledge of the inspections required. No ventilation is required with vented heaters as they draw their oxygen for combustion from outside, never depleting the O2 inside the RV. You can shut the windows and no gases or large amounts of moisture will be produced inside by the furnace. It is all vented outside. Older furnaces should be inspected to assure the chamber is still in good shape. A good CO detector should still be used as a developing problem with the combustion chamber may be caught before a health/life threatening condition occurs. Unvented heaters. Vent-Free Warnings: -Don't use if anyone in the house is pregnant, diabetic, anemic or suffers from heart or respiratory problems -Cannot be used as a sole or main source of heat -Cannot normally be installed in a bedroom or bathroom -Cannot be installed in a "confined space" where fumes may not be properly dispersed Catalytic and Open Flame. Catalytic heaters use a catalyst mat that looks similar to a fiber A/C filter on the front, except it is made of metals impregnated with platinum which actually is where combustion takes place. Catalytic heaters use a mat that causes the propane to glow at about 800 degrees, instead of the 1000 degrees plus of an open flame heater. Both catalytic heaters and open flame heaters burn inside the rig, and release all combustion products inside the rig. The catalytics less than the open flame heaters. I have seen much confusion with non-catalytic heaters being considered catalytic because of the confusing terminology used by heater manufacturers. To make it simple, whether a heater is called a radiant heater, ceramic gas fueled heater, brick heater, they are open flame heaters. Whether they hide the flame behind a block, screen, cone, or any other device to change the perception, they are still burning an open flame somewhere inside and are not catalytic. Both types of unvented heater produce CO, and many other combustion by products in the RV. Along with a lot of moisture. Many confuse the ratings of unvented heaters for RV use with the ratings for house use, where there are many more thousands of square feet to disperse and dilute the combustion by products released inside. They can build up quicker in an RV. Having said that, unvented heaters can be used safely, if all venting and other operational instructions are followed to the letter. I would go so far as to state that any unvented heater must be equipped with an ODS (Oxygen Depletion sensor.) How it operates is in the first link below with pictures of it shutting off the appliance. In addition a CO alarm and Propane alarm should be installed and tested regularly in case the ODS (Oxygen Depletion Sensor) or the heater itself malfunctions. In addition to water, CO2, CO and other combustion byproducts produced by all heaters that burn any fuel, as opposed to an electric heater with no combustion, unvented heaters can produce a lot of CO if they burn inefficiently due to a burner malfunction, rust, or something out of alignment from bumpy roads. Thus my recommendation to have a CO alarm and Propane alarm just in case. Never have a propane source/bottle inside the rig. It is best if any unvented heater is connected to your main propane source, tank or cylinders, to prevent propane leakage problems in addition to the others associated with burning fuels inside unvented. Now to the big fallacies. Furnaces vent much of the heat outside and use a lot of the battery power to run the fans. Thus are not 100% efficient. This is true as far as it goes. But when the unvented folks say their units are almost 100% efficient, because all the heat goes inside, they usually neglect to mention three things. 1. That to be safe, you have to open vents or windows to replenish the oxygen and vent out the moisture and other pollutants the unvented systems generate. 2. That ODS sensors sense CO or O2, they don’t. They are simply thermocouple distance/flame sensors that cut off the fuel if the flame is not right on the thermocouple due to bad combustion from increasing CO2. They never explain that CO production starts to go up as soon as oxygen begins to deplete. (See first link below) 3. That both bring an increased fire hazard INTO THE RIG. Even a catalytic can ignite a drape if it is lying against it for time. OK, both Catalytic heaters, and open flame heaters produce CO, even when operating at peak efficiency. Catalytics at 6 PPM (Parts per Million) and open flame heaters at a range of from 9 - 25 PPM. The EPA maximum exposure rate is 9PPM. Many times, in cities, the CO rate is higher from the "fresh air!" Add more inside? So if you choose to save some bucks using an open flame or a catalytic heater, and they do save a lot of propane in winter, here are my safety suggestions, followed by source documentation links for my statements. 1. Read and follow all the manufacturer's instructions, especially the ones about minimum venting. If the venting makes it too cold, never reduce the venting or you will be at risk. 2. Have a good CO detector with LCD readout of CO in PPM in case you get the initial symptoms of CO poisoning. 3. Also have a propane detector to alert you to any leaks while using any propane appliance. 4. Understand and apply the preventative maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual for your unvented device. 5. In all cases, never use an unvented heater, especially in a small space like an RV, if you have the capacity/financial resources to use a vented alternative, as the EPA and the CPSC both state. 6. Catalytic heaters should be covered from dust when not in use. If the catalytic mat becomes “poisoned,” which means contaminated, it will produce much higher amounts of CO, moisture, etc. Keep them covered up when not in use. 7. Open flame heaters also can go way up on CO and other substance production if the device is altered by road or user error such as having a cracked or rusty burner, or being out of adjustment due to soot. Inspect them and the flame regularly. OK now for the links for those wishing to go further. The ODS, and a pic of how it works, scroll to the bottom: http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/how_gas_works The EPA page –detectors not a substitute. Scroll down to the section on CO detectors. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/coftsht.html Good discussion from Canada on ventless gas heaters and safety http://hearth.com/what/unvented.html This question and answer from a heater company and why they refuse to handle ventless heaters and fireplaces, and why. http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovntlss.htm Where to place a CO detector? This link from First alert, who does not certify their CO detectors for RV use, I know, I bought one that failed. But a good explanation of the weight and rising characteristics of CO. Go here: http://www.homesafe.com/coalert/detect.htm If you use an unvented heater read the manuals and thoroughly understand the warnings and operating instructions. Understanding CO, and understanding which unvented heater type you have, and the unique operating requirements of each unvented heater, is critical to your safety. Here's an excerpt from the CPSC or Consumer Product Safety commission statistics on CO deaths for one year- 1998. I can find no current estimates, but with the explosion of RV sales and the increasing numbers of fulltimers selecting this lifestyle for both retirement, and mobility for younger contractors, I think it is imperative that we get the word out about the dangers of unvented heaters when used by uninformed folks, especially in the smaller square footage of an RV, when compared to the build up of CO in an average sized house. Quote: An average of 18 percent of deaths took place in temporary shelters, such as tents, recreational vehicles, campers, and trailers. In 1998, 26 percent of CO deaths, the highest percentage for the five-year period, took place in such temporary shelters. LP gas camping heaters were the products most frequently associated with these deaths, followed by charcoal grills. The complete report is here: http://www.cpsc.gov/library/co01.pdf Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Deaths Associated with Camping -- Georgia, March 1999 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm Much important info. Unfortunately, the victims can't post that they "heard" it was safe, and made a mistake. And, unfortunately, online, in some cases (current company excluded of course), the "long reads" and links tend to be ignored in favor of three line answers. Winter brings out the auxiliary heating systems for both the part timers that use their RVs for ski trips and winter camping, and even the fulltimers in the South. (Yes, it freezes in a lot of our areas too) Getting the real skinny out to our fellow RVrs, even if it takes a few extra minutes of reading and/or research, if it can save one life, to me, is worth the slight effort. While some may take my article as being “anti” unvented heater, my sole purpose is to be sure that those using them or considering one are aware up front about the care required to BE ABLE to operate them safely. And they can. For the above reasons, and because I rarely boondocked, I chose an electric ceramic supplemental heater. Safe too? Not necessarily. I had one catch fire inside the control box of one of the safest types, the oil filled radiator type! Just being aware can go a long way to keeping safe, regardless of your choice in auxiliary heating, if any. With any combustion device in the home, just having a CO detector is not enough as it may fail too. Having propane and CO detectors, as well as knowing the limits of safe operation of any type of combustion heater, and doing the inspections and maintenance necessary, are all required to assure your safety. Safe travels! | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 277 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
Excellent article gary, the only thing I can find that should be added is that the catalytic pad also requires periodic replacement, otherwise, an excellent article and I too read the long posts, this is the type of post that contains actual information and limits the opinions, we all have opinions often influenced by old wives tales that persist but actual facts seem to be rare in some posts that run heavily to the 'you can't do that or you'll die' school', I would prefer posts steer further away from opinions and offer actual information based on research. Good post, I didn't see it as anti-ventless heater at all, what I read was the pro's and cons of using a heater of that sort with the maintanence and proper safely equipment up to date. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 977 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15 Rating: |
Gary, could you be any more definitive..? Nice work Bud.. the type of comprehensive research & analysis put into a language that doesn't require a PhD or a decoder ring. The advice on staying aware & alert to changes in both the heater & your physical performance is the most important. I'm happy to tell anyone here about the subtle effects of long term exposure to low levels of carbon monoxide.... you don't know it's getting a grip on you until it's too late & you cannot muster the strength or motivation to remove yourself from the contamination ! It INTOXICATES YOU. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1296 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.48.215.44 Rating: |
Gary, Thanks for the HOURS of research and editing to produce that article! After being accused of "lining my pockets" by not installing ventless heaters which are not legal for sale in California, that link was really appreciated. The same thing goes for acidic condensate. Regards, G | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 281 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
George, you really need to take the time to read the material. Incidentally, the 'c' is for canada, not california, also read about the installations involved in the 12 year old studies and statistics, how much do you get for a 12 year old furnace or do you just sell new ones, the key here is proper installation and proper servicing, for informational purposes, there have been numerous improvements in the technology as I believe you already know. The canadian studies are quite comprehensive but don't differentiate to any degree the differences between cataylic and ventless, something I'm sure you pounced upon, now finish reading the material. I realize that nothing will change your mind, not even the facts, but thats ok, as I said earlier it would be crazy for a furnace salesman to approve of a lower cost option, I always expect the sales personel to direst me to the higher profit items, thats just how life is. (Message edited by cody on October 20, 2011) | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.117.126 Rating: |
George, I've decided you win, my time is far more valuable and better spend than debating with a person that is a "licensed heating contractor" about the pro's or cons of something that you'll never recongnize the existance of anyway. I love you george. Now let the veins on your temple relax and try to not have a stroke, relax and put the football game on and put your feet up and get a beer and enjoy a nice relaxing evening in front of a nice ventless fireplace. |
