| Author | Message | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.29.127) Rating: |
Anyone know anything....about propane injection for turbo diesels??? One of my customers has a set-up in a Meredes 300td and when you flip the switch a sensor detects turbo boost and an additional injector begins to meter propane into the intake, WHAT POWER! as the boost increases, so does the propane flow. He has a small bottle in the trunk and has been using it for 2 months and it is only 1/4 down.... OK let the poinions fly! Chris | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
I do not have one. Seems to me it may be the way to go, but since probably I could not afford it, the whole thing is kinda moot. However....if I was rich, rich, RICH! and could afford such neat cool toys, would it not be super neat and cool to be able.... ....to double or triple your power on demand, simply by flipping a switch? Warp Factor 8 Mr. Sulu!! He he he. Carry on. | ||
| John the nonuttin (199.232.240.38) Rating: N/A |
Let us know when he burns a hole in those sodium filled pistons. | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.29.127) Rating: N/A |
Autually it seems that many of the cummings in Fords have been doing this for some time and the whole set-up is well under a grand... I was actually posting the concept in relation to use on a bus motor... | ||
| RJ Long (67.181.211.253) Rating: N/A |
Chris - Email me for more info on this subject. Just click on my name in blue above. RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| RJ Long (67.181.211.253) Rating: N/A |
Oops, email link on board is not working. Try r4016 at comcast dot net. RJ | ||
| Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68) Rating: N/A |
H E B grocery chain out of San Antonio, Texas has been running propane injection in their over-the-road delivery trucks.. (class 8)... for several years..the trucks are on a Sterling chassis.. | ||
| Johnny (4.174.103.51) Rating: N/A |
Also, there's the option of nitrous oxide...which will actually HELP engine longevity. | ||
| John the newbie (199.232.240.242) Rating: N/A |
Comparing a Mercedes car to a DD? Back in '69 I owned a 190d. I always loved diesels after that, but there are some differences between the Mercedes automotive diesel and a hefty DD. Mercedes recommended running 1/2 gas to 1/2 diesels in frigid weather. Wanna try that with your DD? That aside: http://naftp.nrcce.wvu.edu/techinfo/altfuels/LNG/LNG.html provides a load of techie stuff. I don't know enough about this *&$!# to contribute, but I wouldn't run the stuff in a new Mercedes regardless. I would be interested to learn why, if DD wanted an easy way to increase HP without remanufacturing and redesigning it's world, how come they don't use this nifty device. You can also crank the governor up high enough to run 90+, but they say it ain't gonna be too good for too long. I guess I have a lot to learn yet.. | ||
| Dale MC8 (66.81.135.104)
Rating: N/A |
Use 'keyword search' for previous discussions about propane injection. FYI | ||
| John the newguy (199.232.240.242) Rating: N/A |
Thanks Dale. But "been there;done that": http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/2512.html?#POST11312 It's expensive enough to take a chance with a perfectly decent Mercedes engine, but the thought of sitting aside the road with a 40' coach with all your belongings and family inside... waiting for a tow truck and a new engine... all for the sake a few more horses... when the bus handled a full load of passengers and luggage quite successfully as designed... ? I guess if a guy's got the bux to burn and has so much ego that only the biggest and best will suffice even if at the expense of increased wear and tear and shortened engine life - the guy oughta' go ahead and do what he feels is needed in his life. I drove an old Eagle fully loaded with passengers and ski equipment up and down Hunter Mt, NY to LI, NY, on nearly a daily basis. The engine ran at 86 hwy and did the mountain just fine at about 35-40 mph. A converted coach is going to weigh far less than the average fully loaded transit/charter coach. Does a guy really need to take chances by adding junk to a perfectly well designed engine? Ahhh ... Whatever~~~ | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.29.127) Rating: N/A |
This is the one thing I hate about the BBS system... You ask a question, presumably because you do not yourself know the answer and are looking for information from others with similar interest on which to either base your decision, or simply to educate yourself, but what you get are replies from self opinionated, usually uninformed individuals who would rather belittle than inform. My original post read "Anyone know anything....about propane injection for turbo diesels???" it did not say that I am dead set on installing it in my bus, nor did it say that I want to have the fastest bus on the playground. John - You say "It's expensive enough to take a chance with a perfectly decent Mercedes engine" as with all things mechanical, if you know the perameters of a given system, they can usually be safely modified in various ways with no determental effect. N02 injection for example, if done properly, gains HP and torque, cools the engine and increases both performance and longevity. If installed by a shade tree mechanic on a 1300cc Honda at full boost, it will last about 3 minutes. You also say: "I guess if a guy's got the bux to burn and has so much ego that only the biggest and best will suffice even if at the expense of increased wear and tear and shortened engine life - the guy oughta' go ahead and do what he feels is needed in his life." John no one was talking about installing 50" chrome spinner hubcaps or carbon fibre exhaust tips, I was merely opening the discussion of a performance modification about which I knew nothing. You also wrote "I would be interested to learn why, if DD wanted an easy way to increase HP without remanufacturing and redesigning it's world, how come they don't use this nifty device." You haven't worked on many vehicles have you LOL. Manufacturers are VERY slow to modify any existing design and often "fixes" and modifications are done at street level for years before manufacturers adopt the designs - Remember when Fuel Injection was a "boy racer" item, all the old school mechanics hated it becaust they did not know the systems and it took manufacturers years to adopt. Rotory engines, fast, clean, great power to weight, endless powerband - Mazda owns it so no one else has ever done much with it. Beta recorders - far superior to VHS but Sony held the patent, in the end everyone else adopted VHS as an open standard, mass producted it and here we are, everyone knows beta is better but we all have VHS's. Microsoft VS Linus - won't even go into that. The point I am trying to make is: Just because a big manufacturer did not do it does not make it wrong. If that wee the case you would be on the Winnebago board rather than converting a highway coach - something the manufacturer never intended either. As for Propane injection into a DD, not a good idea, it was explained to me like this (Don Fairchild) In a DD the fuel and air are heated in a box before they enter the combustion chamber to aid in burning, the temp they are heated to before entering the engine is above the flash point of Propane, therefore it would likely ignite before being contained in the combustion chamber. Injecting directly into the combustion chamber is great but not possible with the DD...On a ford on the other hand, it's GREAT! Can't we all just be nice and consider what is being asked rather than always looking for a soapbox? Chris | ||
| Jim-Bob (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
Chris, you've gotta get a set of DD engine manuals. Your friend Don is a bit mistaken about the workings of the 2 cycle DD. The air is drawn into the blower & slightly compressed as it flows into the cavity (air box)in the block surrounding the middle of the liners. When the piston uncovers the ports, the air flows up into the combustion chamber pushing (scavenging) the previous charge up & out the exhaust valves. When the piston covers the ports on the way up, it compresses the new charge & at the appropriate time, fuel is injected into the cylinder where it fires due to the heat of compression, not the blower. The air box air is not that hot. Many engines have the air brake compressor drawing air from the air box. If the DD is turbocharged, the air would be a bit warmer as it is forced into the blower by the compressor section of the turbo. Some are aftercooled, some are not. (T or TA suffix) But I agree with your opinion about manufacturers being slow or not at all on the uptake of new stuff. For one thing, they are very happy to let lots of folks experiment on their equipment since not only is there no warranty (and no liability if something bad happens) on the modifications, but the mods actually terminate the warranty on the engine. "Free research". | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.29.127) Rating: N/A |
Jim, It is more likely my understanding of the explanation rather than the explanation itself. I know NOTHING about DD engines, nothing. I can tell you the torque specs of a 1956 Porsche or a 2003 Merceedes engine, but I have not a clue about DD engines. I have bought a set of manuals and am waiting for them to arrive. Chris | ||
| RJ Long (67.181.211.253) Rating: N/A |
Chris - One of my fellow busnut friends who lives a couple of hours away from me in N. CA has a propane injection system on his coach, and has thousands of miles of experience with it. There is also another fellow in CO that has a similar system on his coach, again with thousands of miles of experience. Neither one, however, want to share info on their systems on a BBS anymore, because even tho they've got lots of actual working experience with propane injection, other self-styled "x-spurts" have told them it doesn't work. If you will contact me off-list (r4106 at comcast dot net), I will see what I can do to help you. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Don Fairchild (209.234.134.61)
Rating: N/A |
jim-bob; You and people like you are why most of us that work in this industry don't post on the boards any more or will post very little. I won't play your game. I will however give you what I said. When you fog propane into the air box of a two stroke Detroit you have in effect built a bomb. The air in the air box of a 8v71 engine at full load is presurized to 5lbs not much I know But in a turbocharged engine set up correctly will be at 35 to 38 lbs. now consider what you said about air flow and air temp, the temputure of the air in a natural motor will run about 275 Degrees. In a turbo engine it can reach over 400 degrees on a hard pull. How hot do you think the rings can get during a climb on a hot day. 1200 degrees F is not uncommon during the summer on a long hard pull,I have seen ring tempurture of 1400 degrees F, measured on the engines dynos at southwest research during emission testing when we were developing our parts for the two strokes.So now let look at propane!! It boils at -44 degrees has a flash point of -156 degrees F It will auto ignite at 842 degrees F. The proper mix of propane to fuel is one gal propane to every three gal's of diesel burned. How mutch propane does it take to have a fire. Facts on propane institute of america. RJ; I know that there are people who run propane and have good luck with it more power to them I hope the luck continues. I am not against propane as a fuel supplement I run It on my one ton dually duramax at an increase of one hundred HP.It works when used properly. I will Not Use it on a two stroke. I don't fault thoes who do, and I realy hope nothing ever goes wrong with there set up. and as far as experance goes I'll leave that up to others to figure out how many years I have been doing this. R J and Geoff Hope all is well with you and yours Miss your post's. God Bless and maybe we can meet some time. Geoff I looked for you at the cavarens but too many people, may be next time.Don Fairchild | ||
| John that newguy (199.232.240.194) Rating: N/A |
Well Gee... Golly whizz, CG. But you did post the question with the line: "Sure to create havoc!" Now tell me, why would you do that unless you were soliciting remakes that might be a little to your dislike? Just trolling for trouble, were we? Diesel fuel preheater have been around for years. They're simple to make and install and cause absolutely no problem. They have been noted to give a very nice increase in both horsepower and fuel savings. But preheating the fuel, and adding a combustive agent to the air intake, are two totally different concepts. The posts that precede mine (this one) should give you some idea about a 4cycle vs a two cycle and why adding a precombustion agent is not a "good idea". You questioned why a manufacturer doesn't add this fantastic technology? Aside from all other comments regarding the damage that may result from adding a precombustion agent to the air intake of a two (or four) cycle diesel.... Why would a owner of a vehicle that is not carrying hazardous material (propane cylinder) want to do so for the sake of a few more horsepower? What saving would he get if he had to take the numerous detours that's required of vehicles carrying hazmat? If I were a truck owner/operator, I would be more concerned with the ease of movement through the myriad of laws that govern my industry. And I would avoid buying a truck with equipment that may add to my woes. RV hobbyists are a different story, I suppose? Or at least some are. I trust you generated the havoc you requested, CG? I'm happy to have been able to take part. | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.28.149) Rating: N/A |
John, Oh bla, bla, bla... At least if you want to argue do a good job of it, my little sister can put up a better defense. 1) Entitled "sure to creat Havoc" as I knew I would get opinions for both extremes, I was hoping for informed opinions rather than just the drivel. If I was "trolling for trouble" I would simply bring up politics or religion...or US foreign policy now wouldn't I??? 2)Who said anything about fuel pre-heaters??? 3)You have just written "You questioned why a manufacturer doesn't add this fantastic technology?" No john as a matter of fact you asked that question in your first post, not I, you wrote "I would be interested to learn why, if DD wanted an easy way to increase HP without remanufacturing and redesigning it's world, how come they don't use this nifty device.".....Now you are telling yourself the answer to the question you originally asked yet phrasing it as though I had asked the question....Your name is not "Al Siamers" is it??? 4) You write "Why would a owner of a vehicle that is not carrying hazardous material (propane cylinder) want to do so for the sake of a few more horsepower? What saving would he get if he had to take the numerous detours that's required of vehicles carrying hazmat?" ..... John what in the world have you been smoking? At least 60% of the posters on this board and easily 90% or all motorhomes on the road carry Propane, so to begin with your query about the owner of a vehicle not carrying Hazardous material (propane cylinder) is completely unfounded. Secondly, I know of no one whom has has to reroute thier trip due to the legalities of carrying a propane cylinder, Do you? Does your bus or motorhome have a DOT "Hazardous Material" placard front, rear, and both sides as is required for vehicles involved in the transportation of "Hazardous Materials"? Perhaps there is a warning T-shirt I should have for the Bic lighter I carry....Please Another simple technical question overcomplicated by unfounded opinion, heresay and conjecture. Chris | ||
| John the newguy (199.232.244.2) Rating: N/A |
I wish I had your ego and intellect, CG. Happy motoring. | ||
| Jim-Bob (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
Well Mr Goodwin, I guess you just don't know the right people. The Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel prohibits ANY propane to be carried through the tunnel. They are well known for stopping RVs to inspect for permanent & portable tanks. (RVs are easy pickings for the DOT guys 'cause most DO have propane & maybe ignore the signs thinking that the signs are for commercial traffic.) You can go through the tunnel if your tanks are dead empty but they fine you heavily if you get stopped violating the rule. My family, myself & others we know have gone the long way around many times rather than dump the propane tank/s. I'm sure others on this board can substantiate this issue. | ||
| cgoodwin (208.12.28.149) Rating: N/A |
Oh, not you too... The point was not that there are no places where carrying propane is not allowed, restricted or controlled. The point was that most RVs already carry propane with no HAZ MAT considerations and rarely have to deal with "the numerous detours that's required of vehicles carrying hazmat". That said...I find it rediculous that RV's carrying propane are not marked and that the location of the tanks are not marked from the exterior. I have seen what an exploding propane tank can do and it is impressive! Having worked as an EMT many years ago, the idea occured to me when driving my first stick and staple...If I get in a wreck and catch fire, how will Eemergency services know that there is a bunch of propane on board and how will they know where it is??? Even in the diving industry all tanks are secured at all times "If it's not on your back, put it on it's back" was the most common phrase on the boats (along with: "although your mother may have paid for your trip, she didn't come with you so pick up after yourselves"). Personally I do think that vehicles carrying propane should be marked clearly and the tank location should also be denoted with a standardized lable of some sort on all sides of the vehicle.... In Washington State you must turn your propane off and mark the access door with a special bright orange tag before pulling onto any ferry. I don't think anyone will be putting a 40' bus on one though... Again while amusing, none of this was the point of the original query now was it? Chris | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.191.33) Rating: N/A |
We stopped and closed the valve to the 2 LARGE propane tanks before using the bridge tunnel , and was informed that's all that is needed. Doesn't work in I 95 Baltimore tunnel , you need to use the Key bridge instead . Not longer and a fine ride with loads of eye candy. FAST FRED | ||
| Johnny (4.174.91.84) Rating: N/A |
Mine will have a "PROPANE SHUTOFF VALVE INSIDE" sticker on the door where the tanks are. I agree that all RV's should have the tanks marked. |
