| Author |
Message |
pete (205.188.116.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
i have a 56 4501 scenicruiser, i had a blowout last year and limped it home with 1 tire on one side of the drive axel. i was told later this was hairy.
question....if i put the weight in the tag axel will it take a substantial load off of the drive axel that had the one tire on it? or at least safen it up a bit to get out of where i might be.
hope this made sence..im getting new tires and a friend gave me aluminum wheels..no more split rims..but the blown tire thing got me thinnin.
thanks
pete |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 9:20 pm: | |
Pete:
Hairy is not the question, you got home, RIGHT???
Your coach, unlike those produced today, and since the early 70's with MCI's, sits on two sets of dual rear tandem wheels, namely 8 tires!!!!!
If you intend to install Aluminum wheels, you will need, all new axle studs, as the aluminum wheels are much thicker than the steel wheels.
You can hit on my name at the top of this post if you need HELP!! with the studs, which we have in stock.
I Hope this HELPS!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
Luke, many of us have simply used the special lug nuts that are made for putting Alcoa wheels on the standard length stud. This is also in common use among the class 8 truck people, which is where I learned about it. Since the load is the same and the number of threads supporting are the same, and the fact that I have never heard of them causing a problem, would you care to give your views on that practice? The cost is drastically higher to replace the studs of course. |
RJ Long (67.181.211.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 2:53 am: | |
Pete -
In addition to Luke and Don's answers, let me add this:
If you still have the switch on the dash for the tag axle, be aware that if you turn it "off", you will actually be taking the weight OFF the tags and putting it ON the drivers. This is for those rare instances where you need additional traction on the drive wheels.
The normal, or "on" position of this switch is the way GM designed the coach to be operated. So even if you lose one tire, you've still got seven more to carry the load. Just adjust your driving style accordingly.
If you're getting new tires, be aware that there are a myriad of sizes that will work nowadays. The most common wheel sizes for today's tubeless radials are 22.5 and 24.5, and many owners are now running the 11Rs due to their availability nearly everywhere. It's quite a bit harder to find a 12Rx22.5 bus tire at Oh Dark Thirty than it is one of the 11R sizes.
Metric sizing is now becoming more popular in the truck tire sizes, and will eventually replace what we're used to today. (Remember how car sizes were "F78x14" not too long ago?)
Three more points: Be sure to get tires rated for 75 mph. There are bus tires for transit operations that are built with much heavier sidewalls (as these drivers like to use the curbs as part of the braking system), but they tend to overheat in highway applications and are not recommended for such use.
Secondly, your coach originally came with tires that turned about 495 revs per mile. Finding tires that turn MORE than this will result in a lower top speed, a slight increase in fuel consumption, but slightly better mountain climbing. Tires that turn LESS will have the opposite effect.
Finally, be sure to weigh your coach on a public scale, "ready-to-roll", so that you can adjust your tire pressures properly. Obtain the weight on each axle, divide that axle's weight by the number of tires on the axle. This will give you the average weight being carried per tire. Add 200-300 lbs. as a "fudge factor", then go to your tire manufacturer's website and look up the load/inflation tables to find the correct pressure to carry.
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
J.L.Vickers (66.170.220.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 9:09 am: | |
Luke and R.J.Long let me add a note!
The switch on the drivers side panel 2nd one from the left labeled Drive Axle Loaded.
If the switch still there and it's working properly when you turn it on you should also see the tell tail sign on the front instrument panel
That states Drive Axle Loaded.
The drivers hand book also states that the Hand Brake switch and Rear Axle load switch should never be on at the same time.
Above information taken from the PD4501R operating manual. |
pete (64.12.116.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 2:36 pm: | |
thanks guys..the q was about taqking the load off the drivers if i blow a driver tire..
well luke..lol i made it to bernies..he fixed me up but not before the fun.
im using the different lugs..they will fit and bernie is doing the work
thanks for all the advice
pete |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 8:46 pm: | |
Hi Don:
As you and most reading know, I own a bus repair shop and parts company and therefore my view of "SAFETY" issues relate to the potential liability of anything we do in our shop, or I might say on these Boards!! Unfortunately, that is where this country is at today. As far as the lawyers are concerned no one is responsible for their own actions, it is the other guys fault!!
While I am "Off Topic", My kids chipped in and gave me a Troy Built Pressure Washer for Christmas which I broke out last week to clean my Barn & the House. Included was a heavy duty bag that snaps on to the handle of the machine,with manuals for the machine & engine, on which were printed all sorts of instructions about keep away from small children etc. As a business owner, I could not help but think, that there is no way I or any business man can insulate ourselves from law suits today!!!! Sad commentary on our times, in my opinion!!!! And I hope I live long enough to retire "WITH MY SKIN ON"!!!!!
Now Don to your answer, I have no idea of what you are referring to with regard to the "SPECIAL LUG NUTS" that allow aluminum wheels to be installed on the studs provided for steel wheels, as the aluminum wheel require at least 1/4 inch more stud than most coaches were built with????
In Arcadia, Fla, last January, after I had given a talk on wheel maintenance and appropriate wheel hardware, a fellow stopped by and asked if I could look at his GM on which he had just installed aluminum front wheels and no thread protruding from the studs. I stopped what I was doing, walked over & looked at his coach and "gasped". The threads of the studs were inside of the outer retaining nuts!!!!! I said to him Richard, be careful going from here in Fla. back to Texas. He told me he had bought (what he was told) were the longest possible studs for his application. I told him longer studs were available. I don't think he believed me because, he told me, "when you get home, ship me the studs I need". He came back by later and said, cancel that order. When he got back to Texas, he called me and ordered the proper studs.
We stock the OEM studs for most models of coaches for both Steel and Aluminum wheels!!!
Don, you have caught me on my soap box tonight with your last line:
"THE COST IS DRASTICALLY HIGHER TO REPLACE THE STUDS OF COURSE".
I would hope that none of my family members or myself were riding next to a vehicle with improper wheel hardware that failed!!!! The results could be devasting and "FATAL" to many.
There are places to save money, but in areas of "Coach Safety", if you can't afford the cost, then park the vehicle until you can afford to make it "Road Worthy".
I am on a roll!!! Twice this week I have had folks call and order front wheel studs, because one or more had broken. One customer only wanted to replace the one that had broken and in another case the customer ordered the one that broke plus one extra for each side on the "STEER AXLE". In each case I suggested replacing them all, as the labor is being spent to remove the hub and in each case the customer declined!!! I am not trying to sell more parts than the customer needs, but most of these coaches are old and if one stud breaks, it is just a matter of time before more break, and if too many break while going down the road, it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Priorities, folks!!! I read about "THOUSANDS" of dollars being put into interiors, bells & whistles, but when it comes to "SAFETY", the cost is too much!!!!!
Sorry this is so long, but I really hope that I can get people to "THINK", take responsibility for their own actions, so that all can enjoy:
HAPPY & SAFE BUSSIN'!!!
I Hope this HELPS!! and I hope "MORE" will LISTEN!!
LUKE at US COACH |
jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 9:46 pm: | |
there are inner nuts that are used especially when mating aluminum outer wheels to inner steel wheels... kinda hard to describe, but the nut has a shoulder to hold the inner wheel on. like the regular ones do, but it also "sticks thru" the inner wheel to gain extra threads... they are also longer to make up for the extra thickness of the aluminum wheel....then a conventional outer nut holds the outer aluminum wheel on.... |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 9:49 pm: | |
I was trying to be polite Luke, yet fair to the readers. Your post appears to make me out a penny pinching miser that does not care about the safety of myself or others, and a person that is encourging such tactics by others. Nothing could be further from the truth, in fact I used to be the man with the badge that put vehicles out of service because of the number of threads showing from some lug nut.
The nature of these nuts has been described previously on this and other boards, and they are available at most any wheel sales store or reputable truck parts place. They are perfectly acceptable safetywise to the DOT, and the fact that you have never seen or heard of a failure with them merely enforces their safety reputation.
I understand your business is profit oriented, we all are happy about that fact, and the difference in profit from selling 20 nuts as opposed to pulling two hubs, selling and installing 20 new studs (with some associated need to sell and install new seals/gaskets) is drastic, . But when there is an equally safe alternative to spending lots of bucks changing the studs, I feel people should have that intelligent choice to make. Too often we feel that simply throwing larger amounts of money at something makes it somehow "safer", and for those that gain solace in that thought, power to them. |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.210.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:07 pm: | |
Hello all.
On broken wheel studs:
If one breaks, you have to be concerned about what abuse has been inflicted on the rest, both by human hands, and the forces involved in losing one of the studs.
Especially with our older equipment, how many times have the wheels been off and reinstalled in the life of the vehicle? And with the air gun used, in times before the present "enlightenment" about big torque wrenches?
What life cycle were these studs really meant to have? Doubt anyone was expecting 50 years....
I'm with Luke, better safe than sorry, if a stud breaks, how do you know the rest aren't right behind it? Replace the set, then you know for sure.
wheels on, fresh fasteners, makes for...
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
TomNPat (68.137.169.28)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 3:53 am: | |
I'm with Luke!
He has responsibility for his actions and takes that responsibility seriously. Thank God he makes a profit since, if he didn't he'd either be on the dole or in a government job. Either way, we'd lose a great resource who is an EXPERT in the business. Ctitics and know it alls are a dime a dozen. I'd sell them for less if it would get rid of them.
Government retirees didn't have responsibility when they were in their job, have even less after retirement. Most don't even own a bus!
Thanks Luke. Your input is always excellent! Non Illigitimum Carborundunum!
TomNPat |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 6:06 am: | |
I have to disagree with you TomNPat, not sure where you got that idea. As a retired US Army officer, I guess I just THOUGHT I and others like me had responsibilities. Somehow when you are responsible for sending scores of people to do a job for which some will be killed, and making the judgement yourself to kill or wound other human beings, it sure felt like responsibility. Perhaps there are other veterans reading this that feel differently than you about Government retirees not having responsibility. |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.103)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:47 am: | |
Don & Folks:
My intention was not to "Paint" you as anything other than the Helpful person you are here and elsewhere. If you follow my posts here and elsewhere, I do my best not to knock, insult or in any way disparage folks. I am only here to HELP!!!!
I used your quote in conjunction with several conversations I have had just this week, where in my opinion, there are all too many folks that don't understand the safety considerations of wheel hardware.
This morning I realize what nuts you were referring to for the "Duals". I was talking about front and tag axle studs, which must be changed to Safely accomodate Aluminum Wheels!!
We stock the longer inner nuts for steel/aluminum and aluminum/aluminum paired dual wheels. And yes they are perfectly "SAFE". Sorry I misunderstood your terminology and Hope I did not mislead any readers. You were talking about Apples and I was talking about Bananas!!!!!
Have a GREAT day ALL!!!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:21 am: | |
Darn it Luke, I thought I was talking about ORANGES!! Sorry I did not make myself clear, I just could not believe that you had never heard of those nuts. Beats the hell out of me if they are safer than changing studs or not, but it is an alternative. |
Airless in Mississippi (69.92.6.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:36 am: | |
Now I am really confused... I thought this was about Pineapples... and I could not figure out how you drove the dang bus to Hawaii |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Good grief, don't you know your geography? These were Central America pineapples! |
Airless in Mississippi (69.92.6.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 1:59 pm: | |
dangit no wonder I am confused.. I am in Mississippi I thought that was central america. Only place they have pineapples here is WALLY WORLD |
Niles (24.73.65.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Airless ,
Mississippi IS central america - you were correct in the first place - LOL
Niles |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
May I ask for a once and for all definitive statement?
Are the following statements absolutely true?
- On single-wheel axle ends, when replacing steel wheels with aluminum wheels, one MUST replace all studs with longer studs to allow for the extra thickness of aluminum wheels.
- On dual-wheel axles, when replacing steel wheels with aluminum wheels, one OPTIONALLY may use special nuts for this purpose and NOT replace the studs.
- In all cases, regardless of wheel type, when replacing any individual stud one should ALWAYS replace ALL the studs on that hub.
Can I get an amen, brothers, or is there more to the story? |
niles (24.73.65.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 4:15 pm: | |
Chuck,
I think you finally put this puppy to bed, amen brother.
Niles |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 4:24 pm: | |
Wow. This timely news for this thread, just in...
All 5 in family escape when RV explodes
The right front wheel came off the vehicle, sending it into trees. Within minutes the RV exploded |
niles (24.73.65.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:14 pm: | |
That Luke is a prophet - Glad they survived and not too injured - I'm a believer Luke
Niles |
pete (64.12.116.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
funny thing is i wrote the oridiginal post and it had nothing to do with wheel studs..lmao
pete |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.116)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hi Folks:
Chuck MC9, the definitive statement you made is true & accurate!!
Thanks also for sharing the timely news. I too am Happy to know that the family of 5 are all O.K.
Is it coincidence that the story appeared today, or is the Good Lord telling us to "Take Care", and THINK SAFETY??? Forty-two years working in the bus industry and I will preach "SAFETY" until the day I close my eyes, for any audience willing to listen.
I must further add that when I came out of the shop tonight ( it was about 85 degrees with 100% humidity, not a whisp of air moving), I checked my E-Mails, caught you guys discussing fruits and geography, and laughed out loud for about 5 minutes!!! Thanks for the FUN and I am Happy to know we are still all friends!!!!
Have a GREAT!!! evening ALL.
LUKE at US COACH |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.28)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:00 pm: | |
Well, you are wrong. Chuck made the statement as follows: - "On single-wheel axle ends, when replacing steel wheels with aluminum wheels, one MUST replace all studs with longer studs to allow for the extra thickness of aluminum wheels."
That statement is wrong Chuck, you only have to replace the studs IF THEY ARE TOO SHORT! My bus had long enough studs to accept the Alcoas, and several others I have encountered did too. It is a no brainer to determine, just look and see if you will have several threads still visible after the added width of the new wheel. (Gee Whiz, you folks are driving me bananas, or was it oranges?) |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.107)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 8:39 pm: | |
Don:
I can not imagine why you want to "CONFUSE" the many readers of this Board, who never post, who do not know, and who are looking for positive input and information????
Your coach was the exception to the rule, as obviously someone changed the studs on your coach before you bought it, but you did not know it!!!
Now here are the FACTS:
The original GM & MCI front studs (and tag wheels on the MCI's) measure 2" from the outer face of the front or tag axle drum to the end of the threads. For the aluminum wheel, it measures 2 1/4" from the face of the drum to the end of the threads. And I have both studs sitting in front of me with my tape measure out.
Don, think about the audience here, and please respect the fact that the coach your bought and no longer own, may not have been like all other standard coaches that are out there!!
Wrong information is worse than "NO" information and in this case I hope once again that the air is clear with regard to wheel hardware, for those seeking good information!!!!
Happy & SAFE Bussin' to ALL!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 9:09 pm: | |
Chuck asked "Are the following statements ABSOLUTELY true?" One was not absolutely true, so I pointed it out. I do think of the audience, and felt it should be pointed out. I would not consider that "wrong" information, as pointed out, in 50 years someone may have put in longer studs.
For those I may have confused, Luke is very correct in stating that the Alcoa length studs are 1/4 inch longer than the original steel wheel ones, and do have to be replaced if changing to thicker wheels and you still have the original steel wheel stud lengths. |
niles (4.4.112.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:07 am: | |
Luke,
I think we all got your message loud and clear - although some of us have to be brought to the trough kicking and screaming - thanks for the thoughtful posts you make - your words of wisdom are both timely (as in this thread) , knowledgeable and sincere - I hope to meet you soon - you are a true asset to the bus community - let me speak for the silent majority and ask you to continue to allow us to partake of your years of wisdom and expeience
Niles |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.219)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:09 am: | |
OK, I could amend the question, but have achieved the desired goal, which was *clarity*. We have so much fun (huh?) bantering that sometimes the signal-to-noise ratio precludes a clearcut answer to something that shouldn't be *that* confusing.
In just under one year I have > 15Mb of snippets of bus conversion advice in my database that is screaming at me to get organized and weeded out.
I ain't calling the lawyers in to reword the question. |
Airless in Mississippi (69.92.6.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:51 am: | |
DONT GET THE MEASURING TAPE OUT AROUND DON TALKING ABOUT 2 inchs,.... ;) |
pete (205.188.116.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:33 pm: | |
sorry i started this thread |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 3:36 pm: | |
Nah, don't be. Part of the character of this board is how we seem to get off the topic so quickly, and you might just win a prize. A simple question went from fruits to nuts in a big hurry. If you read the thread thru, it is kinda interesting to see how it got that way. All us just hope there was enlightenment along the way. |
|