| Author | Message | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1286 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.145  Rating: N/A |
Looks like the latest fallout from having to pull and replace the engine back in July to fix a leaky gasket is my power steering system. As careful as Joel was to get the routing of all the lines, fittings, and pipes correct during the re-installation, it looks as if the hard power steering pipe that runs to the front of the coach ended up sitting against an engine mount. After 4000 miles of vibration, it's rubbed through, and my steering gave out just as we were getting parked here in Mobile. Wow, what a chore it was getting squared away with no power assist. And, of course, I've left a few gallons of ATF all over the ground here. I was hoping to find simply a ruptured hose, which I would run down to the local hose shop to replace. Unfortunately, it looks to be a hard pipe, and I have no idea how to repair this in place. Replacing the whole pipe is out of the question. This first photo shows the 90-degree sweep bend, resting against an engine mount. I think it's rubbed through where they are touching. Just above the bend is a slit length of silicone hose tie-wrapped around the pipe as a chafe guard -- perhaps it belonged down lower instead. http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A72jkV4lHGg/Trnt73qGGVI/AAAAAAAABAg/42aAgc1xHb4/s800/rub -through.jpg In this second photo, at the very top right, you can see the threaded coupler where the pipe joins a compression hydraulic fitting. Again, I have no idea how the coupler is attached. Perhaps it is compression, or perhaps it is brazed on. http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3EFf_kx-0I8/Trnt9Q14GiI/AAAAAAAABAc/ua4OuraPSrE/s800/cou pler.jpg So here are my questions: 1. Does anyone recognize the coupler? How is it affixed to the hard pipe? Can I cut the pipe back past the break and install a new coupler, getting a longer hose to reach the pump? 2. What other options do I have for repairing the ruptured pipe? It is a high-pressure hydraulic line, so many traditional patching techniques are out. 3. Does anyone know of someone here in Mobile that can repair this? I can probably limp in to a shop if it's not too far. As always, all suggestions and recommendations are welcome. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1291 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.204.53.188  Rating: N/A |
Sean it looks like regular braided steel line to me and can probably be made up at any hose shop. There is one here in Lakeland so I know there must be others, maybe even Napa could do it. Any hydraulic shop could probably fix you up and the fittings I think can be unscrewed just like any other! Sorry i couldn't be of more technical help, but if you can't find a shop there, I know the one here can make one up and I can always shop it to you. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1287 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.145 Rating: N/A |
Ace, it's not the braided line -- I know I can get that anywhere. It's the gray pipe -- hard pipe all the way from this spot in the engine bay all the way to the tunnel between the front wheels. The pipe has a 90 bend in it and then ends at a threaded coupling. From there a braided hose takes over. If the hose blew it would be no problem -- it's the hard pipe that's ruptured. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 524 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 67.253.126.41 Rating: N/A |
Time for the choo choo to make a free road service call....... | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1292 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.202.135.72 Rating: N/A |
Sorry the pics were looked at from my phone but now I see what you mean. Is there went way you can cover it with some hose and clamp it just to get you someplace where they can fix it? | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1579 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.123.74  Rating: N/A |
Sean just wondering if you could cut the pipe and maybe thread the piece and just put in flex line from there? I also belive they make compression fittings that would work also. Hope for the best. Where are you? I am in Ocala Fl Gomer | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 636 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
When one of my pipes sprung a leak all we did was decomission it and run a highpressure flexible line from one end to the other | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.54.58 Rating: N/A |
http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/html/productline/prodcat/tube-compression-fittings.htm I would look at these types of fittings, cut and deburr the steel line, and have a longer flex line made up. Brian | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 578 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Sean The fitting at the end of the hardpipe is most likely brazed on. Even if you found the correct fitting,because it is likely metric, it would be difficult to braze it on a shortened hardpipe without actually removing it to make it accessable. The simplest solution would be Tim's suggestion of running close to forty feet of standard hydraulic hose. In my posts on China a week or so ago, I made the mention of parts for Sean, because I saw several older Neoplans while there. Joe. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1288 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.14 Rating: N/A |
Folks, it looks like I have been less than clear about what I need, so let me add a few things. First off, there is no way to take the pipe out or bring it with me anyplace. It's 25' or so long and runs all the way to the area of the steering box. None of that chase is accessible any longer, at least not without disassembling half the coach. That rules out simply abandoning the pipe in favor of a new hose as well. The repair will have to be made in-place, by which I mean squatting in a tight space above the tranny, accessible only by a hatch under the bed. Even cutting the pipe off square is going to be a challenge. Getting a welder or even a brazing torch anywhere near the actual cut is probably impossible. I would love to just clamp something on it, but the break is in the middle of the bend. As I understand it, patches such as a Morris coupling only work on straight sections, so that option is out. Here is my best attempt at a photo of the cut, by lifting the pipe and getting the camera behind it. It's a lateral groove, almost like someone went after it with a triangular file: http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KXc689yX5tg/TrqmL-ocg9I/AAAAAAAABAw/MW4jC60vzug/s800/rub through.jpg To be clear, I am not the least bit concerned about the hose or any fittings beyond the hard pipe. I know where the Parker Store is and I am certain that they can make me a longer hose with the correct fittings. My only concern here is how to repair the hard tubing itself. After a bit of research, it appears there is a type of fitting made for this tubing called a "cut ring fitting", and it's even possible that the fitting on there now is of such a type. If so, it might be reusable. That said, I am not comfortable with my own skill and equipment in this realm to do the work. As it happens, we are parked at a boat yard, and I had the yard guys come look at it. They don't have fittings or tools for metric pipe (the OD is 22mm) but they called their forklift service for me. The forklift guy basically told me there was nothing he could do. I am still open to further suggestions, up to and including any sort of temporary repair that would hold enough pressure for long enough to get me to a proper shop. Thanks, everyone. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com]http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Brandon M (Brandon314159)
Registered Member Username: Brandon314159 Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2011 Posted From: 173.8.221.225  Rating: N/A |
It's crude, and rude, but is this an option?: http://www.rescuetape.com/pipe-repair It might require many wraps, and perhaps some clamps to back it up, but since you are dealing with a slit, and not a gash/crack/etc, it could be cleaned well enough and a gob of this stuff applied. I've seen it correct fairly high pressure lines if the surface was nice and clean. I'd recommend a strong volatile solvent (so it evaporates to clean). Keep us updated. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 409 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
I hate to be a kill joy but at the pressure in that line the tape will not work regardless of how clean you get it. What is the material that the pipe is made of? If it is steel or some sort of black iron (unlikely) it can be MIG welded if you can get a talented welder into it If it is copper or brass it will need to be brazed (not soldered) If it is stainless then it must be TIG welded. None of these will be easy because of access but unless you can find a 22 mm. high pressure compression fitting your options are limited to the hard fix in place or tearing half your coach apart to replace it. If you are able to find a compression fitting to match the outside diameter of that pipe, make sure that it it rated to at least 3000 P.S.I. otherwise it would most likely not withstand the pressure and fail in a corner. Good Luck Sean! Wish I was closer to come help but it is a bit far from Edmonton Alberta | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2199 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Forget the silicone tape; I tried to use that stuff on a garden hose last summer with no success. I think it might work ok on less pressure if you have a lot of room. That line, to me, looks like it is either an inverted flare or has a ferrule on it. You'll need to measure the od and check a fitting catalog. Can you cut some line off and put a flex hose on end of tubing, once you can find a suitable coupling? I'd unhook the line and cut it past the rupture in a straight area. Go to a fitting store and see what will work. You might check out McMaster-Carr catalog on line and see what might work. If it is common tubing or pipe and you can find a coupling, you can curve a new piece and attach with the new ends. Did that piping come with the coach, or was it added? I don't know how you'd get a successful weld or braze with the oil residue seeping out. I wonder if JB weld would work with a couple of hose clamps and a back up piece of lead or soft copper over the slit. | ||
| Brandon M (Brandon314159)
Registered Member Username: Brandon314159 Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2011 Posted From: 173.8.221.225 Rating: N/A |
I've found that JB weld and petroleum don't get along too well when under pressure/temp stresses. Seems to turn softer and break down. I'd throw on some of that silicone tape and then back it up with some thick bendable foil and a couple of the high end hose clamps (not the worm drive ones) The tape will act as a squish-able gasket, and the clamps/metal will serve as the holding pressure. That tape has to be pulled VERY taught during installation to bond to itself. Suitable rubber with sealer could also work. Just my $0.02 | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1615 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.8.142.64  Rating: N/A |
Sean....I haven't encountered your "exact" situation, but.... ....me thinks Tim Brandt has hit the nail on the head. Do away with the original line (leaving in place); run a second flex line with connections at either end, or convenient location (if any). With flex, one can "go over...under...around, etc etc. Lotsa' ways of skinnin' cats!! At least that is where I would start my thinking were I in your situation. I do not "envy" your dilemma. Best wishes. FWIW RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1289 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.36 Rating: N/A |
Update: Things are not always as they appear. My gut feeling that I had a high-pressure side problem was, in fact, correct. Before tackling anything at all I decided to put a couple gallons of fluid in and, if need be, crank the steering a bit just to make sure I had correctly identified the leak. Before I even started the engine, fluid started running out of a hole in the high-pressure supply line that was in a spot I could not see. The good news here is that this is a standard braided steel hose and I will be on my way shortly to the hose shop to get it replaced. The bad news was that it was a bear to get out without a pit. The other bad news is that the issue I originally identified will still need to be addressed. It's possible that the groove I spotted has not actually worn all the way through the pipe, but I won't know for sure until I fix the high side and pressurize the system. But one way or another, it will need to be repaired, as it is sure to break open later if it has not already. I also spotted another couple of rub spots while I was in there, including one on the main supply line from the air compressor. So I will be taking care of those as well while I have the hatch open. Thanks to everyone for the help, and I will post another update when I get the supply hose back in place. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 74.41.14.235  Rating: N/A |
Sean is it 3/4" or less to as to be able to run soft bendable copper (which will hold high pressure to a point)with compression or flare fittings that you may be able to get a small flare tool in there to form the ends to connect to a coupler in the middle or 2 opposing ends. Also where things rub in our coach if I can't move them I put a piece of thick tire on the rubbing side by drilling4 holes in the tire chunk and using either wire and twist the ends tight or zips to secure. FWIW HTH Dave | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1292 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.32 Rating: N/A |
Well, the entire problem turned out to be the high pressure supply hose. That would explain the bang, the immediate loss of steering assist, and the emptying of several gallons of steering fluid in a matter of seconds. The fairly serious groove in the return pipe has, apparently, not yet worn all the way through. I was misled by the fact that that's where most of the fluid had accumulated after the rupture and that damage was so easy to find. The Parker guy talked me out of replacing the braided stainless hose with the same stuff, instead selling me their standard high-pressure (4000 psi), high-temperature, DOT-approved hose which appears to have a covering of woven synthetic fiber. It was about a 4' hose and the replacement cost me $63, which is really all I needed to spend on this project. While I was at Parker, though, I also bought a couple 37° caps and plugs, so the next time I have to take a hose off I don't get so much fluid everywhere. And, surprisingly, they had a 22mm bite-ring pipe union in stock, for $25, and I picked that up as well, so that if and when the return pipe finally gives out, I will have that as an option. Getting that stupid hose back in place was a back-breaking chore, but once I got everything tightened the steering works fine. I did my best to secure the hose out of harm's way, and put some slit hoses over the other rub points as protection. There was really no way to secure the return pipe properly, so the best I could do was to put a length of silicone hose over the damaged area. At least with the union on board now I know I can fix it later if it ever starts leaking. A great big thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread -- you guys are the greatest. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.54.58 Rating: N/A |
Congrats, good to hear you are back on the road! Brian | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1616 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.227.20.211 Rating: N/A |
All's well that ends well...  RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1580 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.123.74 Rating: N/A |
Glad to hear the good news Gomer |