| Author |
Message |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 1:25 pm: | |
Hi Guys:
I was hoping some of you Allsion experts might be able to shed some light on the type of transmission I have. I have to replace a big stainless hose on it that's leaking oil all over the place.
If you can ID it by pictures, here's a few:
Engine/ Transmission Pictures
If I need to find a serial number or badge on it, I can crawl around and do so, especially if someone could tell me the best place to find it, because I'll have to do some serious degreasing.
The guy I bought my Fishbowl from said the transmission was put in new a few years ago, so, if true, it's probably the best thing about the bus.
Thanks, in advance!
Brian Brown
'68 T8H-5305-021
Bus Site |
TWO DOGS (4.226.105.243)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 1:50 pm: | |
look in your phonebook for some place that makes high pressure hyd. hoses......usually,you can take it to them & they can duplicate it,lots of times,useing your ends |
jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
vs2-8 |
Jim-Bob (149.174.164.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 9:32 pm: | |
I agree with Jimmci9. I have one in my yard in a 4905. |
TWO DOGS (63.156.216.28)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 7:28 pm: | |
I'd like to buy a vowell BOB |
claimjumper (209.33.204.102)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 8:00 pm: | |
This is a VS2-??, can't tell if its a dash 6 or 8 but it is a VS trans, strong as a railroad nail and overdrive to. I have a -8 in my 4106 with 5:55 rear eng gearing, climbs well and 85MPH top out.>>>Dan |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 9:35 pm: | |
Thanks for the ID, folks.
From what I've read through the archives here of wonderful info from folks like you, it looks like I should be pretty good with the VS2-8 for the driving I intend to do: lots of straights at highway speeds and not too many hills.
I'm reading that it's a good tranny for MPG and OD gearing. I'll have to find out how big a rear end I have in order to do the math on a good crusing speed. OR, just figure out a way to wire in a tach.
Thanks again,
Brian Brown
'68 T8H-5305-021
Bus Site |
Phil Dumpster (24.17.4.245)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
That bus also came with jake brakes which were disconnected but left in place in later years. If yours still has them and they are disconnected, look into getting them reconnected. They are very nice to have in the mountains, and will save on brake jobs in the long run.
Probably the best busses Seattle Transit ever had, they were disliked by residents because they were loud, especially on hills. They were very much liked by drivers, as all of the other diesel and gasoline powered busses Seattle had were very slow and underpowered, especially in this region with lots and lots of hills.
These were the first transit busses equipped with the VS2-8 for express service, which Seattle Transit called "Blue Streak" for some reason I've never been able to uncover. The right hand destination roller had a special stylized "Blue Streak" sign which was displayed when on the Blue Streak service. Route 41 was one of the Blue Streak routes. If you look at the MEHVA photo of 724 in Sunrise, that's what the destination sign is set to.
The "in service" photo of your bus is probably of 1979-1981 vintage. These busses were relegated to school bus duty in 1984 and received yellow "Watch out for pedestrians" warning signs on the front and back.
Some were fitted with pnuematic assisted steering. Apparently yours wasn't one of those.
Those were the last GM busses Seattle ever ordered, switching to American Motors and Flyer for later orders, then to MAN, then Breda, and finally now to Gillig and New Flyer.
You will, of course, repaint yours I hope. Sunrise never looked good on these busses even when fresh. It looked OK on the AM Generals which is was designed for, and absolutely terrible on the TDH5105 old looks and trolleys. Rustoleum can be had for around $25 a gallon at Home Depot, a cheap spray gun can be had for less than $50 with hose and regulator, and the bus air brake system can supply the needed air pressure. |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
Phil:
Thanks for the info on my bus! Unfortunately, some of the interesting items like the destination sign and serial number plate (not to mention most everything electrical) is long since gone from my bus.
Funny you should mention the Jakes, because when I use the switch, I sure don't seem to notice any deceleration or an exhaust note to tell me that they're working. I can find very little meaningful info about Jakes on the Web to tell me how to troubleshoot them or just see if they're working. Guess I'll have to pay someone to figure it out, like you suggest.
I'll definitely repaint her. I really like the red and silversides scheme of the restored #724, and can even see evidence on her of the old red scheme in a few worn places. I probably won't take the time to get the silversides back, but the red would really be a nice nod to her heritage.
Thanks again for the information and tips, and feel free to email me anytime if you have any other info on Kings County Transit or Fishbowls in general. Much appreciated!
Regards,
Brian Brown
Bus Site |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (67.181.236.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:45 am: | |
Hey Brian -
For troubleshooting your Jake Brake, try this link:
http://www.jakebrake.com/pdf/tsman.pdf
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (67.181.236.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:49 am: | |
Oh, forgot to add:
The transmission ID plate should be on the curb side of the unit, almost to the output yoke, IIRC. About 2"x3" in size.
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 2:33 am: | |
RJ:
Thanks so much for the link to the Jakes. I spent quite a bit of time downloading that one and some of the other Jake manuals on their site... and then digesting their content.
I'm beginning to fear that the engine brakes were removed from my bus at some point. Although I haven't spent too much time in the engine bay, it's clear from Jakes' documentation that DD's shorter rocker covers had to be replaced by taller ones to cover the engine brakes. And my most rearward valve cover sure looks like the shorter variant (lowest on this page).
Plus, there's mention of a buffer switch and adjustment, and I haven't found anything like that back there.
I'm showing my naivety about big diesel mechanic-ing, I know. So I'll probably have to pay a real DD guy dig into it and see what's left of the system. I sure liked the idea of having Jakes for driving in my part of the country. *sigh*
Thanks again for your help!
Brian Brown
Longmont, CO
Bus Site |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (67.181.236.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 3:18 am: | |
Brian -
Take a close look at that tall valve cover on the firewall side of the engine. That cover looks just like the covers used w/ Jakes.
As you look at the cover, see if you can find a wire running into it. If so, trace it back, it should lead you to the governor and the buffer switch. This would be under the plate the fuel shut-off plunger is bolted to.
It's possible you have "half" a Jake, i.e. working on one cylinder bank only. Reason? Simple: No modification needed to the engine tailgate! The taller valve covers required by the jakes also require a "bulge" in the rear decklid to clear. By only installing Jakes on one bank, it saved the transit agency money!
Don't worry too much about diesel mechanicin', a lot of this stuff is pretty straight-forward, once you learn the idiosyncracies! (And after you've read DA BOOK!!!)
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
Phil Dumpster (24.17.4.245)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 3:32 am: | |
Look closely at the upper valve cover. Some Jake installations were fitted to one cylinder bank only.
You'll know when the Jake comes on if you listen to the exhaust note when you lift your foot from the throttle above, say, 35 miles per hour. It's the main reason why they were disconnected in the first place.
Not much to add about these coaches other than that they were the front line express coaches from 1968 through 1976 when the AM Generals arrived, were removed from most county service with the arrival of Flyer D900 coaches in 1979, and were used mostly on secondary local service after that until 1984 when they became school busses. They were retired in 1986 with the arrival of the MAN Americana busses.
When the trolley system was shut down in 1978 for rebuilding, some of these 700 series coaches were assigned to the steeper routes that the older GM and Flxible busses couldn't handle. The jakes were disconnected around this time to ensure that the drivers wouldn't use them coming down some of the steeper hills.
The drivers almost universally loved these busses such that they never came up with a derrogatory nickname for them. They'll cruise at 70 all day, and the shift from direct to overdrive is almost comical, giving the impression this is a wild vehicle that wants to rock and roll. |
Phil Dumpster (24.17.4.245)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 3:38 am: | |
Oh, to add - all of them had more than a million miles on them when they were retired.
Looks like RJ and I keep the same hours. |
Phil Dumpster (24.17.4.245)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 3:57 am: | |
Looked at your picture again - I think I see the Jake wiring around the throttle/governor assembly.
The disconnection consisted of a mechanic taking a pair of diagonal cutters to the wiring somewhere between the switch on the driver panel and this area. There might also be a fuse in this circuit that may have been removed. Find the cut wires, splice them back together, insert a good fuse and take a test drive.
The Jakes are automatic - you don't flip the switch each time you use the brakes. Turn them on and forget them, EXCEPT when in an area where compression brakes aren't permitted, or just aren't a good idea, such as a residential area. When the switch is in the "on" position, they will come on when the engine is above idle speed and the throttle is closed. They will turn off when you step on the throttle, or the engine is at idle speed.
The Jakes aren't useful when the coach is in low gear because of peculiarities of the VS2, so don't expect them to work under 20 miles per hour or so. They will work very well when the coach is in direct and overdrive.
Fair warning - at high engine RPMs descending a fairly decent hill the exhaust note is very loud behind the coach, even with a good muffler. With a rusted out muffler, you could end up breaking windows in houses along the highway.
You have been warned. |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 11:33 am: | |
RJ and Phil:
I'll head out to the bus in the next few days and try to trace out the circuit. The Jakes being on one bank makes perfect sense the way you describe it.
I'm not certain that the Jakes are not working, but would expect to hear some change in the exhaust note, even from the driver’s position 40' away. If the exhaust blats could shake windows, I’d think that I should be able to hear it and feel the deceleration... unless my tired, old 8v71 just doesn’t have any compression left in her. The stop light does come on when the Jake is supposedly "engaged": i.e. with my foot off the throttle and the tranny locked up (direct??). So, maybe most of the system is still intact and just disconnected somewhere by the head.
Thanks so much for your insight and assistance. Since I've been participating on the BNO, and for almost a year of "lurking" before that, I've found the BNO group of busnuts in general, and you two guys in particular, to be the most helpful, down-to-earth, non-condescending group of folks I've met in over a decade of various Internet BBS's and groups.
Thanks, wholeheartedly,
FBB |
DrivingMissLazy (66.168.175.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:34 pm: | |
I have to respectfully disagree with Phil. I do not believe the Jakes should be left on all the time. That is equivalent to stepping on the brakes every time you take your foot off the accelerator.
I did have a good muffler and I used the Jakes anytime I could. Not really enough extra noise to create a problem, even in areas where they were prohibited. I have always wondered if the muffler reduced the effectiveness of the Jakes.
Anybody know?
Richard |
Phil Dumpster (24.17.4.245)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 1:18 am: | |
If your stop light on the dash (which is connected to the brake lights on the rear of the coach) comes on when the Jake should be on, then most likely the disconnection is between the governor assembly and the solenoid that triggers the system.
The change in exhaust note is UNMISTAKABLE even if you have never heard it before. Trust me, you'll know when its working, even half a mile away. |
Kevin James (207.78.118.99)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 10:49 pm: | |
I have a 4905 considering a auto conversion. 730 or Vs 26 or VS 28. Which one is the best and why? Thanks. What is involved in the conversion? |
FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 1:27 am: | |
Hi Kevin:
Since this thread is pretty old, you'll probably have better luck getting some good advice by starting a new thread with this topic.
I'm by no means an expert... just a newbie. But here's some info I've gleaned so far from various forums on the topic:
From what I've read on the auto trannies (I have the VS 2-8), in order to pick one of for your conversion, it'll depend on your existing final drive ratio and the type of driving you do.
Although the VS trannies are truly just two-speeds with an overdrive/lock-up, I believe that they come out geared a little taller when locked-up than the V730 would in third gear. So, the VS's will not climb hills well, but should give you better top end and highway mileage than the more sprightly V730.
V730's should be more readily available, since AFAIK Allison is still making them. The VS line was sold off to a division of DD, which supplies parts and service but not new units.
Some folks will swear by whatever they're driving, and many more will try to convince you to stick with your stick (pardon the pun). It's YOUR left leg, though, and your bus, so... my advice, just take it all in and decide from there.
I'd try the new thread approach... and wait for the opinions to come rolling in.
HTH,
FBB |
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