| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (66.82.9.66)
Rating: N/A |
I tried this message on another board and did not find the site I am looking for. I did go through my "history" and "temporary internet files" and did not have any luck. I am continuing to gather information and thoughts for a trailer towing article for George Myer’s publication. Within the last few weeks I went to someone’s project web site where they were re-tubing the engine cradle/frame. The engine was up on blocks and the tubing was cut awaiting new tubing. It looked to be an Eagle as I recall. I want to use this photo to show that we need to be very careful to make sure the integrity of the rear frame is good before we put large tongue loads on the hitch. Can someone point me back to the web page I described? Thanks, Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO ’85 Eagle 10 rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 8/7/04) | ||
| John that newguy (199.232.240.157) Rating: N/A |
For whatever it may be worth.. Articulated buses have connection devices that place the weight at the proper points. I would think that using the parameters of the articulated designs would be prudent for the designing of any heavy-duty towing assembly. http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindo w=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=articulated%2Bbus http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwin dow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=towing%2Bwith%2Ba%2Bbus | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.73.78) Rating: N/A |
large tounge loads are improper...forget about writeing the article  | ||
| madbrit (67.136.98.250) Rating: N/A |
10% of the trailer weight is recognised as the tongue weight, some even say as much as 15%, but I feel it is nearer to 10. I was going to check all the welds in the rear frame of my MCI-8 before pulling heavy (10k) trailers, and reinforce where necessary and reweld any cracks. Reinforcing was going to consist of a couple of extra diagonals to help transfer the weight over a larger area of the rear frame. Saying that, 1,000 lbs of tongue weight would not be too much strain on a good frame, I am sure that MCI had a far bigger strain factor built into their frame when it was designed. Peter. (Ex truck driver and multiple trailer tow experience) | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (66.82.9.59)
Rating: N/A |
TD, my article will focus on why we should all be concerned about large verticle tongue loads. However, lots of folks are pulling big trailers and that makes folks think that it is OK. There are ways to tow a big trailer with minimal tongue weight. First of all, there are equalizer hitches (not always the best solution as it puts a large bending moment into the engine cradle). Next comes trailer dollies and lastly, there is a company that has designed a stacker trailer with built in steerable dolly system. I don't think that not writing an article is optional. There are some real dangers that need to be discussed for all to see and think about. Jim | ||
| John that newguy (199.232.240.157) Rating: N/A |
Yeah TD.... Let's see the pix! | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.73.90) Rating: N/A |
SHEPPARD..:this should be exciteing...be sure & have a clear copy of your address for the law firms.. Peter..there IS a difference between a truck with a 5th wheel over the drive tires & a bumper hitch ,fastened to an engine cradel,15 feet behind the drive axel... | ||
| madbrit (67.136.98.250) Rating: N/A |
Two Dogs, I never mentioned 5th wheel hook-ups, they take a lot more than 10% of the load on the platform. My 5th wheel days were many years ago and less plentyful than tag-a-longs. I tow tag trailers with receiver hitches, bumpers rarely can pull more than 5,000 lbs. There are many Stick-n-staples with very long overhangs which regularly pull 10k trailers. Some manufacturers add a tag, but there are many which do not and this is all attached to a chassis extension which is attached with a couple of welds and a fishplate if they are lucky. I looked in my MCI and there was plenty of support for a 1k lb tongue, IF there was no corrosion. The weight should all hang from the roof, including the engine cradle, and is supported by the side walls as part of the whole package. Peter. | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.73.159) Rating: N/A |
I@N has a picture of a properly installed trailer hitch | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (12.103.61.194)
Rating: N/A |
TD, not sure what you mean by Ian's picture. If it is for real, I would like a link. If it is the mechanic for hire photo, won't do me any good. Jim | ||
| TWO DOGS (65.177.145.178) Rating: N/A |
I@N has a picture of my completed instalation of my trailer hitch...(with humor)...don't think you would be interisted in it sheppard...I would only haul 500 pounds of tounge weight,& pull only 5000 pounds with it...I'm happy with it,but,most people "underengineer" everything & then they HAVE to have an automatic & it just snowballs into one big mess,average changeover to automatic is about 5 to 7 thousand dollars...& the worst thing you can do to an automatic trans . is let it sit...which...a R.v. sits 95% of the time | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.250.96.41)
Rating: N/A |
I'd like to see the a pic of your guys' engine cradle/attachment points, just so I can understand what the fuss is about. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS (65.177.145.178) Rating: N/A |
I took a couple pictures of it & they are just not good enough to let the average person understand..the average bus was not designed to pull a trailer,the engine was designed to haul the bus & passengers,...........5000 pounds...anymore & you are putting a strain on everything,if you need to haul more,ya' need a TRUCK...just my opinion | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.250.96.41)
Rating: N/A |
I remember seeing pics of Canadian Greyhounds with serious trailers behind them. I'm just curious as to why this is such an engineering challenge. Gary | ||
| madbrit (67.136.125.195) Rating: N/A |
Gary, MCI has a design drawing for a tow bar set-up, but for some reason some nitwit supposedly from MCI objected to it being in the files section on the mcibusnuts yahoo group and it was removed. You can haul any reasonably large car hauler without any problems other than those which are dreamt up by nay-sayers. Just make sure the rear frame is good and rust free and that all cracked welds are properly repaired and it will be fine. Bolt the hitch to the bus frame and not the engine cradle and all will be well. If you are removing any skin from the rear, them maybe a couple of extra struts would help if you are going to pull a really heavy trailer, but then again, where to put them, who is qualified to make that design call? Basically part of the MCI mods was to box the rear frame under the cradle. I do have the actual MCI spec somewhere and in the past, I have emailed it to people who asked for it, but no more as I got no thanks or acknowledgement from the ones I sent it to and a bunch of abuse from others, that is was bogus. Bogus, yeah right, MCI specs and other legal wording all over the drawings, and I have time to fake all that!!!! Peter. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.250.96.41)
Rating: N/A |
I don't have a dog in this fight, my bird has a full frame, but being a pusher, is also has a cradle. I may chose to beef up my cradle and it's attachment points a bit, I'm not worried about it handling the load. I'm just curious about the construction of the Eagle or MCI that would make a hitch an insurmountable task. Gary | ||
| madbrit (67.136.125.195) Rating: N/A |
Gary, I don't anymore either, and my Freightliner has a huge frame and we built to hitch to beat all hitches, tied into the side storage lockers and triangulated from the main frame. The Eagle is just a mild steel frame and can be cut and added to at whim, the MCI is staonless and so needs a little more skill to weld and keep the integrity of the metal. Peter. | ||
| Derek (Derek_L) (24.83.196.239)
Rating: N/A |
Greyhound is running some 10~15foot trailers up here, as has been said, using a pintle hitch and glad-hands for the air connections (assuming air brakes or air controlled brakes, I guess). If I ever get close enough to one I'll take some pictures, even better if I can get some while the engine access door is open. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.139.142.68)
Rating: N/A |
The sticker on Prevost hitches say 10,000 lbs trailer weight and 1000 lbs tongue weight. Prevosts are not that different from MCI and with good planning and no rust, the MCI should be able to handle a similar load. Jim | ||
| don (Bottomacher) (66.216.217.11)
Rating: N/A |
I'm going to tow a Ford Ranger four down with my MC9, and I would really apreciate information from anyone who has made a fairly light hitch for his MCI. I am not going to weld anything to the cradle, and I shouldn't have to; I'll use radius rods for load transfer to a suitable point. Tongue weight will be less than 100 pounds with the tow bar. Thanks in advance. Don | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.231.9.197)
Rating: N/A |
Here is TD's hitch...  Remember, it's his, not mine :-) Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| madbrit (67.136.119.249) Rating: N/A |
now that's an awful lot of bull........ | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.250.2.76)
Rating: N/A |
Damn. he beat me to it. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.72.15) Rating: N/A |
..................... ...................... most of you guys will only see the back part of my bus anyway..................... THANKS I@N...wish I could learn how to post pictures...it says it promts me for a picture...must be more suttle than the blonde ripping my clothes off | ||
| madbrit (67.136.119.249) Rating: N/A |
Gary, I was going to say that one must have balls to hang them on the back of a bus, but thought the other remark was better. Peter. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.250.2.76)
Rating: N/A |
Actually, I was saying that Two Dogs beat me to it. I was looking for a set of those so that I could tell everyone I had "Real" busnuts. Gary | ||
| madbrit (67.136.119.249) Rating: N/A |
In that case, hang a couple of lugnuts on the back with a piece of heavy wire or small chain, true bus nuts then......... LOL. Peter. | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.73.171) Rating: N/A |
go to e##y & type in bumper balls | ||
| Geobus (4108gmc) (166.153.142.185)
Rating: N/A |
I am new to this and have a 4108 GMC. I have given it some thought. The basic approach I am thinking of is to fasten heavy duty square stock, possibly 3x3 inch, from the receiver hitch to the rear bulkhead and extend it forwards of the bulkhead as far as possible, before it hits the rear axle. Above the forward extent of this square stock just behind the rear axle, I would tie the two beams together with heavy enough steel stock to drop a vertical member down from a point half way between the beams. I believe the beams tie the bulkhead to the luggage compartment and support the coach on the axles. I am assming the point where the hitch ties into the bulkhead can carry a 1000 lb load, if supported up to the beams. The vertical member, dropped down from just behind the axle, would force the forward most point of the heavy duty square stock for the hitch down in front of the bulkhead; thus, forcing the rear most point of the square stock, where the ball is, up. This setup would make the portion of the square stock, which extends forward of the bulkhead, a leverage arm with a mechanical advantage hopefully great enough to support a fairly large tounge weight on the end that extends out to the bumper. I believe the point where the square stock fastens to the bulkhead would actualy need to be a pivot point. The only thing left to do is to give the setup some lateral stability. I was thinking of a setup much like what I saw at http://www.freewebs.com/darisb/ (look under exterior then hitch). Clearly, I do not claim to know what I am doing. Does my idea make sense? Is it just a bad idea to try to put a heavy duty hitch on a 4108? Thanks and have a great day. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (67.181.236.27)
Rating: N/A |
Geobus - Daris's hitch is similar to many of the hitches I've seen installed on GMCs. Works well, as it puts most of the "pulling" load into the chassis at the same point as the radius rods. The powertrain hangs from the bulkhead AND the roof, keep that in mind. How heavy a tongue weight are you hauling? Might want to consider one of those tongue dollys mentioned in a previous post if you're contemplating being over 300-500 lbs TW. FWIW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Geobus (4108gmc) (166.153.142.185)
Rating: N/A |
Rjlong- I guess all things being equal I am hoping I could avoid more equipment (e.g., the dolly). I was hoping there was a way to minimize the load on the bumper and cradle, other than some lateral movement. It sounds like Daris's hitch is good for pulling but doesn't reduce the load on the bumper or roof. The icing on the cake would be if I can get the beams over the axles to carry more of the verticle load that is on the hitch. Or the converse is, can I reduce the load on the bumper or cradle. Ideally, could one extend a member from the bulkhead or the beams without fastening to the bumper. Well, in theory maybe you could but it would be hard to stabalize something so long without attaching it to the cradle, so it didn't twist. I was hoping Daris's setup would be the best way to stabalize it. Then all I would need to do is figure out a way to reduce the load connected to the bumper or cradle at the ball. What kind of load can the beams take, if a person could tie the load back to them? What tounge weight will I have? Well I never had a hitch on either one of my coaches (over 25 years) because I am not confident that it can be done without doing some damage to the coach. With my truck I often use the torsion bars and a 2 5/16 inch ball for my 17 ft trailer. Seldom do I have a load that requires that type of hitch. But it feels good knowing there is a little overkill and the trailer pulls like a charm. However, on the coach, if I put a hitch on, I would like the peace of mind that I have a hitch that could take a 1000lb tounge weight if I needed it. Then the question is what kind of load could I pull? Even with a dolly, what kind of load could a 4108 take? | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.73.218) Rating: N/A |
why would anybody want 1000 pound tounge weight ? you must hate your bus if you put 1000 pounds tounge weight on your car,it would lift the front tires on the tow car | ||
| Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81) Rating: N/A |
TD, My guess is he may want to tow a 10,000# trailer and is thinking of the 10-15% of gross trailer weight "tongue weight" guideline. This comment is observational and reflects in no way on your opinion regarding adding that much weight to the rear of a bus. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.72.198) Rating: N/A |
I understand the math thing..just don't understand the mistreatment..anybody that would do that ,would beat his horse... | ||
| Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81) Rating: N/A |
Two Dogs, Given the latitude in passenger distribution, my MCI-9 would take about 15 pax at or after the rear wheels, averaging 170#/pax this would dump 2550# or close to the equivalent of 1000# at the bumper. Is it really all that much of a flogging of the ol' gal? I don't think an Eagle has the structural limits of a GM 4104-9, for instance. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (66.82.9.82)
Rating: N/A |
Marc, your math is OK, but the passengers are supported by the floor structure while the trailer hitch is loading the engine cradle structure in most buses. With the passenger example, this brings up the issue of whether the suspension can handle the extra load. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone question the suspension when we talk about pulling heavy trailers. It should not be a problem for the very reason you just brought up (designed for passenger loads aft of the rear wheels). On our buses, it is even less of an issue since we tend to have floor plans with minimal weight back there (bed and closet typically). So we are back to where we started, and that is whether the engine cradle and associated framework can handle the large vertical loads caused by large trailers. My position is that there are significant risks if that structure is at all compromised by rust (significant possibility) and/or fatigue (impossible to detect, but probably not a huge factor – still scary, never-the-less). I would not pull a large trailer without adding reinforcement to the structure. Or, better yet, I would use a tow dolly. I can’t remember if I have posted the tow dolly site I am most familiar with (no business relationship, just know of lots of successful application in the racing world): http://tufftow.com/ Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO ’85 Eagle 10 http://rvsafetysystems.com Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 8/7/04) | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
My Lil' ol Bluebird, and the measly 3208 laughs at 1000# tongue weight. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.65.152) Rating: N/A |
and "WE" laugh at your bluebird school bus | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
Until you need a tow. All us with bluebirds, Crowns etc... secretly wish we could be as cool as you Two Dogs. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.81.3) Rating: N/A |
................. |