| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1683 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.219.154.44  Rating: N/A |
On a trip thru the Mountains this past weekend we ran out of canister Starting Ether. Best source of supply that I am aware of is KBI;decent price, BUT they say UPS wants $25.00 for shipping (Hazmat).  Local facilities here in the third world (Las Cruces) haven't a clue what we are asking for...BUT they have plenty of "spray starting fluid".....NAPA can order, but "doesn't know when it would be here"...(good grief) Anyone have any ideas on a reasonable supplier? Thanx RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1634 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.123.74  Rating: N/A |
RC Isn't that the same as the cans here stating spray starting fluid? Hey try a can I believe it is the same tho Gomer | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1399 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.180.173 Rating: N/A |
A John Deere dealer will stock it,Gomer the cans I have been around screw into the injection base good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on February 13, 2012) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1684 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.219.154.44 Rating: N/A |
Right, LUVR...it is a screw in...like a MAPP Gas Canister...only it screws in upside down in a fixture/tube to the Turbo...  I'll try the local JD, but would guess they "haven't a clue either" (ether) RCB | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1400 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.180.173 Rating: N/A |
It standard equipment on John Deere diesel tractor the larger one,a truck dealer should have one I've seen those in F/J before good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on February 13, 2012) | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 1029 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15  Rating: N/A |
I'll second that... aside from a minute amount of light oil, "starting Fluid" in a spray can is Either . The A&P mechanics who cannot afford a 55 gallon drum full, use aerosol cans to clean the stuff they used to dip . | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1667 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.238.59.158  Rating: N/A |
Are you starting that often in freezing temps? FF | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1685 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.139.140 Rating: N/A |
Well, not "often", but when I need to start, I need the ether. Only takes a controlled shot or maybe two, depending on how cold it is. Webasto doesn't warm the fuel filter and pump, so unless the ether kicks the system, nothing happens but starter action. RCB | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 647 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.251.162.133  Rating: N/A |
I'm surprised a webasto in the coolant line doesn't do the trick...must be real cold. With my inline coolant heater running it gets the whole block and engine compartment warm and I have started in half a turn down to 17 degrees. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1686 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.139.140 Rating: N/A |
My "innards" are ALL exposed .....not in a closed in "bay"...engine is mounted amidships, laid on it's side. Cold Wind goes (blows) all around it; fuel lines and tank in the same situation. FWIW RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1687 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.139.140 Rating: N/A |
Found some in Alamogordo. 33 ounce screw in canister. $53 and some change. NAPA dealer knew exactly what I wanted. Best of all is it is twice the size of my old canister. Had I ordered from KBI, it would have been roughly the same price, including the HAZMAT charge....for half the size! Nobody within our "metro" (sic) area had the slightest idea what I needed...including Peterbuilt, International, NAPA, CarQuest, and of all places, Tractor and Implement places. LUVR...that includes local John Deere dealer! They have small cans of spray ether, as do a couple of others. Thanx for the help!!! Fun Hobby, eh what? RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 621 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Chuck I wonder if your injection pump has seen better days, or the engine compression does not build up high enough, because if the engine is preheated it should not hesitate to start. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1459 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.22.243  Rating: N/A |
RC, It probably would pay to carry a spare spray can just in case this happens to you on the road. My old 4104 always needs ether in cold weather but it was designed to use it, although not usable from the driver's seat like yours. | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 186 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 98.216.80.83  Rating: N/A |
Hey RC, Do you have a compression release on that 220? | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 258 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.58.200.38  Rating: N/A |
Need to remote start with the compression release if you are not doing that, but you probably are. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1688 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.139.140 Rating: N/A |
Joe/Tim...haven't the slightest; albeit this coach has had ether from day one (Flagstaff AZ elevation). BUT.., I don't understand how the Webasto or any other coolant heater would heat the fuel lines/filter/fuel pump. The engine (and components) is exposed to cold, wind and whatever more than any other vehicle I have seen. For most trucks,buses, etc, there is some bit of heat build up that would take place, I am sure, in the enclosure, even if it is under a hood. This engine is 8 inches off the ground, only a floor above it from front to back (30'+-). The charcoal I used (just a few pieces) burned completely in the 20 minutes or so it took to get the filter and pump "thawed". Lots of breeze, as it were. From what I understand Diesel fuel congeals somewhat in frigid temps. It seems logical then, the fuel in the line would be less congealed due to thickness of the line (looks like half inch galvanized pipe from front to back). Hence the reason to put the "fire" under the fuel filter (thin metal skin) and downstream from that a few inches, the fuel pump. Gus...I had, indeed, planned to carry a spare, but at 33 ounces, this is twice the capacity, nearly, of the previous canister, which lasted for a number of years. Meantime, I am fashioning a charcoal container which should do the trick in an emergency... Doug..... That is new to me...but will look into it. Not sure where to look for that. Any help there would be appreciated. Thanx for the suggestion. And the beat goes on.....thanx, guys! RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 623 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Is your fuel blended differently with the change of season? It certainly is in our neck of the woods. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2272 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.176.24  Rating: N/A |
Just how cold are we talking here? Yes, altitude will have a detrimental effect on getting it started, combined with less cold than at lower elevations. Something may be wrong here? Wax crystals either form or they don't. Fuel doesn't thicken. Does your ether system have a thermostat in the wiring? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1691 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.215.116.147 Rating: N/A |
Joe...good point and I don't have an answer...as you know we are in the southern part of the desert. Any thing is possible in the "third world". BW....Last weekend was in the teens with wind factor who knows...maybe zero. I know nothing about wax crystals in diesel, but seems logical to me that the word wax might indicate something other than fluid. Just know that when the fuel is "warm" there is never a problem. Heat of any source usually does the trick....as does ether. No thermostat that I am aware of. It is a KBI system and have not researched what the makeup of the system. The new canister that I picked up says 200 starts, approximately. RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1692 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.150.14 Rating: N/A |
BTW....it might not make a difference.....,but....the Engine is a Cummins 220/Turbo. RCB | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 173.180.125.174 Rating: N/A |
RC, why would you use starting fluid or do you have a way to write off the price of an engine rebuild? look at previous post and see the danger that starting fluid does to an engine. do you not have a block heater in it? if not you might find that you can throw that can away and get a lot more lifeout of that engine. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1460 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.13.166 Rating: N/A |
Mel, Your 4104 was designed from day one for ether starting. It even has a little cup on top of the air box for holding ether capsules!! The capsules are history but I've used spray starting fluid for 75,000 mi with no problems. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1693 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.212.115.118 Rating: N/A |
Mel....methinks it is the "way" one uses the ether....this coach has over a million miles on it...68-70,000 since an in-frame. According to the Service Manager at NAU,-the original owner- I have the MSRP- (No. AZ Univ.) when I purchased in 2001, ether had been used since new. This is a measured shot system that KBI designed. Take a look at their web site...been around quite awhile, I guess. They must have something going for them. Incidentally, I would use spray too, but no convenient way to shoot it into the system. This has a turbo and it is quite a ways from the air intake to the point of "fire".....might give it a try, though...interesting thought. Being a pancake installation, the cavity for coolant (normal side of an engine) therefore becomes the "top" and there is a space between the "top" and the coolant....if coolant is not right up to top of cavity (very difficult to accomplish) there is an air space...air space and engine heater do not go well together...BTDT. Cummins acknowledges that. FWIW, there is quite a bit on the subject in the archives....lots of good information AIR from years past. Thanx RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1669 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.238.59.158 Rating: N/A |
Starting Fluid is FINE , as an alternate fuel for aiding a start at low temperatures.Freezing or so. The lower the compression , the sooner "low " temp is threshold is passed. As long as the juice is NEVER used to get a warm engine going (primed),there should be no damage. A block heater , yes there made to heat the water jacket with propane for the boondockers is always preferred to ether.. FF | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2273 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.174.10 Rating: |
As noted, OVERDOSING is the key to ruining an engine. The old gel capsules that went in the cup on the intake had a measured dose in them. The KBI system, and its competitors, introduce a measured dose. In a proper automatic install, there is usually a grounding thermostat mounted against the engine block by a small bracket. You want to be sure the business end stays against the block, in order to inhibit warm engine injection. A spray can of starting fluid in the hands of the unwitting or irresponsible... expensive. Blue flames out the exhaust pipe is definitely NOT your goal. Best strategy is to spray a sniff of starting fluid directly into the air flow drawn by a cranking engine. For minimum use, and maximum effect, of a small sniff, introducing it straight into the intake piping is best. Spraying it into the external intake and having to make its way through the air filter promotes using a lot more spray, as the effect is harder to gauge, and some gets hung up in the filter. On coaches equipped with an easily removed air filter, simply pulling out the air filter and spraying into the pipes works well. The ether cup on the horn above the blower is troublesome to reach on some coaches while cranking the engine, due to moving parts. Don't let your clothing get caught up!!! You will be pleasantly surprised at just how little a sniff it takes, as the temperature in the cylinders most of the time will be almost up to ignition temperature on their own, and needs simply a little nudge to get over the top. We are after a warming "pop" from the starting fluid fire, so that the cylinder has enough heat in it for the next ignition event on diesel alone. The damage gets done if the starting fluid is introduced in larger amounts, allowing for a powerful ignition. It is quite likely that ignition of starting fluid can occur earlier during the compression stroke, while the piston is still moving upwards. That's what will bend connecting rods and break piston rings, if the charge of starting fluid is strong enough. You can imagine how the over reaction towards starting fluid got started by a fleet owner that had an engine failure. In a loud voice of intimidating nature, "If I catch anyone using that devil inspired #$^@#^ in one of my engines again...!!!" And then the mechanic told a bunch of words to the driver trainer, who didn't really understand, but pretended to, and then he made up a bunch of stuff that sounded good to soften it down for those who arrived afterwards. And the rest is history? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Rick A. Cone (Uglydog56)
Registered Member Username: Uglydog56 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2012 Posted From: 138.163.106.72 Rating: N/A |
RC, look at your engine on the left (top) side. On the back of the engine, there should be a lever sticking out. You would use the starting circuit right there, push the lever down, then crank it for a little bit, then throw the lever and she should fire. I will look for a picture of mine and post it. | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 382 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.216.227  Rating: N/A |
Not the same I know but Dad had a 49 Mack 200 Cummins log truck. Used block heater and a squirt of starting fluid most every winter morning. NE Oregon did get cold back then. Don't remember him replaceing any engines. May be completly different tho. Remember this because it was my job to plug in every nite. Did forget once or twice==Wow. Larry | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1461 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.0.113 Rating: N/A |
The 4104 Driver's manual called for inserting the capsule, closing the lid which pierced the capsule, and taking a leisurely stroll back to the driver's seat before hitting the starter. I also used this delay system when using the spray. I tried it once as fast as I could get there but it didn't work as well. The 4104 also has a rear starter switch but using that was too soon also. I was always very cautious, often not using enough spray and having to do it over. Never failed to start though. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1694 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.32.251.35 Rating: N/A |
Very helpful and informative, folks....thanx much, from everybody!!! BW, you went the xtra mile! Rick, looking forward to the pic... Would be great if Boss Nut could "group" this information with related info in the archives............. Thanx again everybody!!! RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 628 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Chuck If you are preheating with your webasto, why not look at taking the return line to the weasto and lengthen it and wrap it around your fuelline/filter. Just an idea. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1320 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.94.209.14 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, BW is right on. The damage done by ether comes from an explosion before top center. A diesel engine will not run on ether alone either. Another cause of ether explosions is engines with glow plugs, mixing those two is asking for a bang. Now, an explanation on "waxing." Diesel fuel contains paraffin which stays liquefied down to a certain temperature. Below that temperature it solidifies into wax, which obviously won't flow. A diesel INJECTION pump will push wax thru the high pressure lines and injectors, but a DELIVERY pump won't move it at all. So, a waxed fuel system won't run for more than 1 or 2 seconds, period. Heating only the fuel filter won't help, as the line to the tank is solid wax, as well may be the tank. Diesel fuel is sold in summer and winter blends, the winter blend has a POUR POINT DEPRESSANT in it. In other words, it depresses (lowers) the temperature point at which the fuel will still pour, enough to prevent waxing. You could get into trouble by filling the tank with summer fuel in July, and not driving the coach until January, when the whole system would be nothing but a block of wax. Obviously you do not have that problem, as the engine starts and runs with a little ether. Your problem is that the Webasto is not heating the block enough to make an unassisted start. Turbocharged engines have a lower compression ratio than naturally aspirated engines, to allow for the higher cylinder pressure developed by the pressurized intake air, and don't start as well cold, as a natural engine. We have emergency generators at most of our medical buildings, and the maintenance company was just talking about an 8V92 for a mountaintop radio station that wouldn't start in the snow, with an electric crankcase heater. After some looking, they figured out that the heater was keeping the crankcase nice and warm, but the heads were stone cold, and under about 20 degrees f, it wouldn't start. Another electric heater in the water loop with a circulating pump cleared up the problem. G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1695 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.227.244.74 Rating: N/A |
Gosh...and it doesn't stop coming!!! what a wonderful medium, Ian...Thanx much for it! Thanx for a great "possible" suggestion, Joe.... ...and George...tell me more about "electric heater in the water loop".. I understand the English, and...I think...the concept....something akin to a radiator line plug in? I have one in our Jeep. In this last event, last weekend, the Webasto ran all night..to keep the inside of the coach warm... and the starter turned the engine very easily, so I doubt it was a engine "metal warming" issue...could be mistaken, however. AIR, that constant temp is kept in the neighborhood of 100 degrees; something close to that, anyway. Thanx again, folks! RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2259 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
I'm assuming that you don't have electricity for a block heater. Ether works fine for starting, but oil is still cold and stiff and doesn't provide as much lubrication. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 730 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31  Rating: |
I always get a kick out of topics that discuss ether. It really brings out the scaredy-cats that spread fear and trembling over its use. Being born on a farm, the first thing required of all infants after they learn to walk, and freeing up their hands, is how to squirt ether into just about anything. I don't see how one could grenade an engine with it unless they intentionally and maliciously tried to do so, and I have witnessed extreme ether abuse. Or is it possibly because where we live here in the mountains it is one of those places where ether works differently than anywhere else, freeing us from the fear of its intended use. Quit wearing out your batteries and starter on those cold days and squirt your bus without guilt. Life is to short to sit around and wait for a block heater to do it's job when you don't have the time. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1404 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.251.184.12 Rating: N/A |
Present day starting fluids are nothing like the ether starting capsules of the past you need to look hard and long to find a spray can that contains 50% ether | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2279 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.67.37.56 Rating: N/A |
True Laryn. The problem is that the abusers of starting fluid may be the source of information for an unwitting busnut, who will regard the advice to empty the can into the intake as gospel. The guy who got blue flames out the exhaust pipe is going to tell that story to anyone who will listen. Not nearly as interesting a story to tell or listen to as the proper application of starting fluid. busnuts, BEWARE THE STORY TELLER, coach maintenance is a boring and tedious pursuit, if it starts sounding exciting, someone's doing something wrong! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
I have never started an urban legend before but I will give it my best shot: The parts manufactures and rebuilders secretly produce and sell ether to naive diesel owners so they will unwittingly trash perfectly good engines. This sinister corporate greed costs these inocent owners thousands of dollars, artificially supporting the parts and repair business and thus keeping the evil shareholders happy and fat in cash. To counter such wrongs placed upon us I think a few of us should partner together and incorporate an internet starter and battery business. That would show those Wall Streeters a thing or two allowing us all be environmental superstars to henceforth live ether free. Oh look! I see the Turkey and Deer lining up at my door now to thank me. Looks like I won't go hungry for a while. LOL | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
On a more serious note, for those who are truly new at this without much experience, Buswarrior's advice should be followed. Ether is a tool to be used like most tools should with some resemblance of sanity. A whole can = to much. A teeny tiny puff = not enough. You would really have to be quite careless and stupid to mess things up with ether. It is not an engine destroying product as some would have you to believe. It is a wonderful starting aid, and back in the old days when it was better, an exciting way to seat a tire. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2268 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Seat a tire??? I always used it to REMOVE the tire from the rim. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
Few things got more exciting watching a bunch of mountain hillbillies strike a paper match and try to pitch it in a ethered tire. If only we had the video media then like we have today. That would be some side-splitting funny stuff! | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 735 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
Others have done the work for us. Here are just a few: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI38RZ2f6Ls& http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INdTh7dThSA&NR=1&feature=endscreen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wa1CQ3eZRg&feature=endscreen&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-FEkBcepII&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ1k0WuNspk&NR=1&feature=fvwp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PlooZL8u0&feature=fvwrel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8SMm4SAvU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6RixOkqmSI&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCJGnn0-wD4&feature=related | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2282 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.67.37.56 Rating: N/A |
4th 6th and 10th employ a nice strategy of running a trail of fluid to act as a fuse. Top marks! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1463 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.23.235 Rating: N/A |
Laryn, Your urban legend was started by GM many years ago when they designed ether starting into their systems!! | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 736 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
Gus, then that explains how GM made $7.6 billion in profits last year. Lots of blown up ethered buses in busnut's back yards. Lots of DD parts being sold. LOL Continuing to some better quality ether/tire vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncWj30tG4gQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdYCsMn4xK8&feature=related | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.176.31 Rating: N/A |
I wonder if the horror stories are from crossover examples of using ether on preheated diesels. Good example of when not to use ether: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_LWm4g35Jw (Message edited by barn owl on February 19, 2012) | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1464 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.1.77 Rating: N/A |
I've yet to hear of a DD two stroke being blow up by ether. Of course nothing is fool-proof when there are so many fools!! "If a little is good then a lot must be real good!!" | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2272 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
since GM hasn't owned Detroit Diesels for some time, they didn't make any of that money on DD parts sales | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 173.180.125.174 Rating: N/A |
LARYN and GUS,thank you for a great day of laughs,there was 7 of us guys sitting around the shop and did you fellows ever get every one laughing and hooting and yelling .we just wondered what part of the hill country you fellows come from.you might ask your self why all the truck man.put a block heater in the engine even for the trucks that run the hillbilly country. if you look at the place where you put a cap of ether in and then close the lid you will notice that the cap. is not under pressure but is indented as it a slight vacuum and when the cap. is punched by the needle , also look at the size of the hole in the needle this is designed to give a regulated amount of ether as it is sucked out of the cap. as the engine turns over during cranking this prevents too much ether entering in to the cyl. and washing off the lube of the cyl walls thus causing damage to the piston rings and cyl. walls. you fellows sure are nice guys as the shop had people laughing all day telling hillbilly jokes, keep them coming guys. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1466 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.20.86 Rating: N/A |
Mel, If anyone used enough ether to wash oil off the cyl walls I wouldn't want to be within a mile of the engine when it cranked!! Here in the hills of AR we just use a tiny squirt and let it sit a while before cranking. We aren't as brave as you folks up in the frozen north! We don't use things like fancy block heaters either, we build a fire under the pan till it gets good and hot!! | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 173.180.125.174 Rating: N/A |
Gus,it is sure good to read you fellows post and where you are from, now when any one up here tries starting with starting fluid and someone asks [where in hell did he come from] i can tell them, From AR. thanks | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 738 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 153.2.246.30 Rating: N/A |
GM had to give the appearance of divesting itself of DD so no one could connect them with such a dastardly plan. They also pay posters on bus boards to post how they sold DD, so we would never suspect them of robbing us like they do when we ether our buses. For complete disclosure I have a block heater that I do use and am thinking about adding an oil pan heater. I prefer to start a warm engine if I can, but if that is not possible I ether and go. BTW diesel fuel will also wash your walls on a cold day if it doesn’t light. I don’t put enough starts or miles on my bus to matter and my bus engine was pre-worn out when I got it, so I don’t have the same fear as some do here. I have seen enough crazy things done with ether to know that one can do more than a squirt and run without harm. I also hope some here can discern between me being facetious and serious. I know it is harder in print than in person. If there are some who are confused, my advice would be to do your homework, and always err on the side of caution. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 739 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 153.2.246.30 Rating: N/A |
The shame is not in using it, but not knowing how to use it……… There are a few states where real men still live without fear. Glad to hear AR is one them! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1702 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.28.134 Rating: N/A |
RCB | ||
| Rick A. Cone (Uglydog56)
Registered Member Username: Uglydog56 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2012 Posted From: 138.163.106.71 Rating: N/A |
I forgot to get a fresh pic. Here's one I've already got on photobucket. Look just to the right and down from the williams brake. That is the handle. You pull it down, crank the motor for a bit, and let'er go and she will generally fire. [IMG]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/Uglydog56/crown%20bus%20appraisal%20pics/crownpics 002-1.jpg[/IMG] | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1706 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.225.39.178 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Rick!!! Reallty appreciate the photo....mine is absolutely not like that,,,,only thing that is even close are the heads... Is yours a Cummins,a DD,...or? Many thanx again! Refreshing to see "detail". RCB | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1707 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.225.39.178 Rating: N/A |
Sorry,,,,,"really" is the word..must be a generational thing RCB | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1468 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.1.240 Rating: N/A |
I had no idea GM was such a dastardly organization, they sound downright un-American! I'm going to take them off my Xmas card list!! | ||
| Rick A. Cone (Uglydog56)
Registered Member Username: Uglydog56 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2012 Posted From: 24.113.205.45 Rating: N/A |
For some reason I thought you had a 220hp pancake cummins in a highway crown just like me. | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 173.180.125.174 Rating: N/A |
Laryn, you have your statement backwards.the shame is in using it, there is no shame in knowing what damage it can cause an engine. it is sad to see that you think only a few states have men that live without fear,as i have traveled in the US i found the men there as fearless as they are here in CAN. and we do not rate them by their use of a can of starting fluid. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1470 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.16.145 Rating: N/A |
So, not only is GM dastardly but now I am shamed for using starting ether as GM intended! This is almost too much to bear! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1711 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.224.46.222 Rating: N/A |
....and the beat REALLY goes on. RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2291 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.91.143.176 Rating: N/A |
Well, newbie busnut reading this in the archives long after this has been rolling... Do you have any better an idea as to what to do, or not, with starting fluid? oh well, we be: happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1714 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.219.27.27 Rating: N/A |
Truly a lot of suggestions/ideas/remarks/concern,etc; albeit, I did buy a new canister of ether and will use it as I "feel the need"....let's see the can says"approximately 200 starts" (18.5 oz). 48 years is a long time, so why change the routine"? (1964 coach) I'll post when it's empty. RCB | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2299 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
They make an ether injection kit that can be installed to inject into the engine when necessary. You hit a button in drivers area and the inverted can is opened for an instant to allow a little bit into engine. We had one for the Perkins 12kw diesel generator. Worked great when needed. I think the kit is still sold by NAPA http://www.quickstart-ether.com/ http://www.koldban.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/documents/131087.pdf | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 358 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 166.250.65.222 Rating: N/A |
I don't have a block heater. If I'm in cold weather, the night before I leave I'll put my 500 watt Halogen light under the engine (or any other place you want heated)-it works surprisingly well. You should be able to start that old Cummins in 3 or 4 starting trys. A 220 with turbo was commonly called a 262hp. I would just simply use the spray can-then you can control the amount and when. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1413 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.251.184.12 Rating: |
What Gus is saying the old Detroit's had a cup for a measured shot of ether it was a capsule not intended for a spray can and like RCB his is a controlled shot. FWIW just to show you how long I been around I still have 2 cans full of the Chevron ether capsules for a Detroit lol | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 740 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 153.2.247.30 Rating: |
Mel, I don’t see the need to ridicule others who have real world experience with ether. If you have something other than hearsay from around the shop then I would like to hear it. I am always willing to learn new methods and techniques that are better than what I current know. I believe your scoffing is unfounded and you need to post some evidence that ether equals a grenade in the motor. I have offered my life experience with it, and I also work in a UPS mechanic shop where I have access to dozens of fleet mechanics with hundreds of years of combined experience. I am a facility mechanic, not a diesel mechanic myself, but I have turned wrenches all of my life with others who have taught me what I know. And they know how to use ether time and time again without any damage. I also can, and do use ether, without ever a hint of a problem. We are not born with a wrench in our hands; we learn the ins and outs of mechanic work through others and trial and error. We are all ready to learn in detail what you know. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1476 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.27.11 Rating: N/A |
Laryn, Amen to that, it sometimes takes some common sense to do this bus stuff. There are many many other ways to blow things up other than ether. I use it on gas engines sometimes when all else fails, it just takes a bit of thinking about the proper amount to use. After 60+ years of being a shade tree mechanic I've yet to have a problem with ether. No rocket science there, but some people can injure themselves with a bag of marshmallows!! |
