| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1703 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.226.28.134  Rating: N/A |
Anyone have problems with calcium buildup in their coach "house" water system besides me? We have VERY hard water (calcium/Iron/who know what else). In our house, we have a softener, but alas, it does not deal with calcium (efflorescence) build up in our fixtures. Terrible! It follows, of course, that when we put water in the coach tanks the same thing occurs. I put in a bit of bleach which deals with the rust and bugs, but to augment that to some degree, we put in water in the campgrounds (mostly National) where and when possible; however, have not been able to completely do away with the calcium. Just wondering if anyone might have a "solution"...NO, I am not going to put a vast water filtration system in the coach;...thanx anyway!  Thanx RCB | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 636 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Chuck Les also known as the waterguy I am sure will chime in and get you sorted out. Besides he is the only other busnut from around my area that regularly posts here. And on top of that he also sometimes borrows things!! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1313 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.45.240.154  Rating: N/A |
Chuck, we have that problem all the time, and we get water from all over. We cure it mostly with white vinegar. We'll end up soaking shower heads, sink aerators, drinking taps, and whatever else we can unscrew in it once every few months. We also have to run a few pots of vinegar through the coffee maker on occasion. Mostly it has not been a problem in the PEX lines, but when I had return valves with diaphragms in them, I ended up replacing the diaphragms about every six months from the buildup. And I'm sure the water heater's got some buildup, too. Calcium is dissolved in the water, so no amount of filtration will remove it. About the only ways to remove it are with an ion exchange system similar to a household water softener, or with reverse osmosis. Either process uses tons of extra water, so it's not really an "on the road" solution unless you're in full-hookup sites. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on February 22, 2012) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.238.59.158  Rating: N/A |
For new bus camper builders the ceramic valved faucets and taps are worth the extra price. Non use for a couple of months allows worse buildups than constant use , so cheaper valves will eventually leak. This costs both electric and water. FF | ||
| Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Registered Member Username: Sommersed Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 148.63.161.138 Rating: N/A |
CLR Ed | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1705 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.225.39.178 Rating: N/A |
I'm not so concerned with those things that can be easily taken care of....I'm plagued with those places "out of sight"...ie as Sean mentioned, diaphragms, valves, etc. I have two diverter valves that become next to useless..and need to be taken apart; even broke one a couple of years ago. (Fred...got any ideas on that?) It also messes up the pump. Fred is dead on about anything that sits for a month or two....and the longer the worse it is. I drained and blew out the tanks last December, then immediately put in RV antifreeze; not a little bit....wanted to make sure the system was fully protected. It seems that did not "do the trick" on calcium protection. We use phosphoric acid (or sulfamic acid) to clean visible corrosion, but I hesitate to use that in the system. Vinegar, of course is also OK. RCB | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 490 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
R.C. You say you have a softener at home but that it doesn't remove the calcium. This is the primary function of an ion exchange softener and if it is mechanically functioning and the media bed is not worn out then it must be removing the calcium and under most conditions the iron as well. Is it using salt? How much salt? How hard is your water? How much iron? How many people are using the water?, How big is the media bed? How old is the unit. If you can give me the majority of this information I can work out how often and with how much salt the unit needs to regenerate with and if it will deal with the calcium problem you have. PLEASE DO NOT USE HOUSEHOLD BLEACH IN DOMESTIC WATER!! The byproducts can kill you! White vinegar is good to de- scale. Phosphoric acid will leave a residue and is a bit on the aggressive side for what you want to do. Pex type material doesn't build up as fast because of the low cohesive force on the material walls but will still build up in the fittings. Happy to help if I can Les | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1708 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.225.39.178 Rating: N/A |
HI, Les......well, where to begin. Our softener is, most likely, by today's standards "old". Would guess 1998-99, Kenmore. Nothing special, just "routine". We (2 adults) use a nominal amount of water...recycling three times a week (after wash day, a couple of days later, and two days after that). Water is absolutely HARD...as in nails... ...lots of iron...LOTS... We live in an agricultural area (third world about a mile from the Rio Grande...dry as I write) water table roughly 20 feet below ground...well is around 60+- feet deep if I remember correctly. Media bed. frankly I do not understand (comprehend)  What exactly is that? We use the new Morton product that has an iron remover. Add salt as necessary, checking once a week or so. Would guess a bag every 10 days or so. I put only two bags in at one time. BUT.....one must understand....we do not fill AFTER the softener....rather prior to...for a reason. I learned long ago that the softener does not do me any favors in the coach system....as it does not in our swamp cooler,... much, much buildup. (seems to me you and I discussed this several years ago...in the archives possibly??? ).My problem is NOT the house, rather the coach when I take on water. Re the bleach; we DO NOT use our tank water for other than flushing the commode, dish washing, and showers. All drinking water is from separate containers, (coffee and cooking included). We use phosphoric sparingly....and I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE TO PEX....Copper throughout....thank you very much!!! And, Les....Many thanx for your help!! I'm all ears, as it were. RCB | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1467 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.1.240  Rating: N/A |
As Les says, the purpose of the softener is to remove the calcium, it will not remove the iron. It appears to me your home softener is not working!! I once filled up with water from OKC that had the most calcium I've ever seen, ever. My solution, including cleaning the shower head a few times, to that problem was to empty the tank and keep filling it with soft water from my son's water system or any RV park with soft water, seems to work since all my problems have disappeared. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 491 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Ok. the sears softener was likely built for sears by a company called Duro. It is a timer driven valve that for a department store unit was not so bad. The media bed is the material inside the pressure vessel that in your unit is likely inside the salt tank. Most Sears units were what we call tank in tank. This media is the ion exchange resin that holds the hardness until it is regenerated with salt. I can go into a long explanation of the chemistry but most people would fall asleep before reading it anyway so I will spare you. The volume standard that we use is 75 gallons of water per person per day. So if you take 75X#of people X total calculated hardness will give you the total number of grains of hardness per day that your unit will need to yield. Then if you take that number and divide it into the total capacity of the unit, that tells you how many days between re generations or back washing. Life expectancy of the media is 7 to 10 years but I have seen it go much longer. No way to test it in the home except to use it and see if you get the expected capacity out of it. Likely at this age it is probably run it's course. The media can be replaced if the rest of the unit is still serviceable. Some of the older department store units are very hard to repair due to lack of parts. unfortunately the manufacturer orphaned a lot of equipment. Softening and removing iron from the water going into the coach or the swamp cooler should not make problems worse unless the softener is malfunctioning and not flushing enough after salt regeneration and you are getting salt water into the coach system. A couple of things do come to mind. If you are adding bleach or any other form of hypochlorite to the tank on the bus, it will cause any ion that is oxidizable to precipitate out of solution and plug up the works. Other thing is that the salt tank needs to be cleaned out about every 5 years. If you haven't done it since the unit was new it would be a good idea to do it. Not a nice job but necessary If you have a chemical analysis or even just simple hardness, iron, manganese, PH and total de-solved solids test for the water that would help. Also if you can take a picture of your unit and e-mail it to me I can let you know the size and model of your unit. If the house system was working properly it should solve a lot of the problems you have filling the coach at home and make home water use a lot better too. Morton's pellets likely have some sodium meta bisulfate added to them to help clean the media bed of oxidized iron. Wont help much and if they are more expensive than the regular water softening salt then buy the cheaper one and add the SMB. at a rate of about 2 table spoons per 50 lb. bag of salt. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 492 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Gus Just to let you know a softener will remove iron from water if it is within ratio to the CaCo3 up to about 3 p.p.m. at a ratio of 8 grains per gallon per part per million. Unless the unit has insufficient brine or if the flow rate to service exceeds 3 g.p.m. per Ft3 of media. I agree the softener is likely not functioning properly.... Maybe we can fix it. Les | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1677 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.238.59.158 Rating: N/A |
The media in a softening system does wear out. And there are lots of different types of media. Here inland below Lake O in Fl the water is rock hard , filled with gasious sulfer and tannen from millions of years of dead leaves. The well pump fills a 100g de-gassing tank , a second pump pumps the water thru marble chips , into the softener with 2 different media , one for hardness , one for the tannen , then thru a carbon filter. All this has to be maintained and serviced , but it does solve the problem. Probably not as good as NYC water (worlds best tap water), but fine to drink. For travelers we found the best water at US park or forest service places. With unlimited budgets drilling 1200ft to good water is common . FF | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 339 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 174.51.169.217 Rating: N/A |
This thread has some good information. Les, I am curious why you say: "PLEASE DO NOT USE HOUSEHOLD BLEACH IN DOMESTIC WATER!! The byproducts can kill you! " For ions, that is the solution to "kill" bad stuff in the water. Is there an alternative? Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO '85 Eagle 10 Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission Bus Project pages: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm Blog: http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 504 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
I think you may have missed where Chuck said "BUT.....one must understand....we do not fill AFTER the softener....rather prior to...for a reason. I learned long ago that the softener does not do me any favors in the coach system....as it does not in our swamp cooler,... much, much buildup. (seems to me you and I discussed this several years ago...in the archives possibly???:-) ).My problem is NOT the house, rather the coach when I take on water." He is not using soft water to fill the coach, though I don't understand why. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 493 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Jim Household bleach has a lot of extra chemistry in it that produces some byproducts that are not very good (to say the least) for people to drink or for that matter to absorb . The active part of bleach that kills bacteria is the hypochlorite. Much better sources are readily available. 66 to 70 % Calcium hypochlorite is available at most big box stores or at any spa / swimming pool outlet. It is stable and a lot safer to use not to mention it is about 200% stronger/ more effective for killing bacteria than house hold bleach. Len. I did catch that he said that he was filling his tanks with raw water because the softened water was causing even more problems. It should not be worse unless something really weird is happening. Fred You do have crappy water don't you? you are right about lots of different types of resin for softening the water and any type of cation resin will not remove the colour of the tannin in your water. The other resin you have is an anion exchange that you are using as an organic scavenger. works well to clear the water of tannin. Are you venting your degassing tank out side your house? Sometimes the gas can be a methane or even natural gas and be quite flammable. I have one client that gets enough that he can collect it and use some for heating his home. Neat but the capitol cost out weighed any fuel savings that he gets. Are you aerating before the marble chips for the gaseous sulfur. Is the sulfur presenting as H2S? | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1710 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.224.46.222 Rating: N/A |
So, Les...are you saying in the post just above that it, indeed, would be better to fill the coach from a softened source? Still cogitating on your remarks further up the line (in the thread). But please note....I used pool chlorine in the last fill (removed the filter put in about a tablespoon of powder). Roughly 117 gallons on board. Comments? Thanx for all the xtra effort! RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on February 23, 2012) (Message edited by chuckllb on February 23, 2012) | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 495 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Glad you are using pool chlorine instead of bleach! I would say that a tablespoon to a full tank is not a bad ratio unless you found that the smell was to strong. All you need to maintain sanitation is a very small residual .2 to .3 ppm is enough. Easy to test your chlorine level with a standard OTO test kit. Also available at any pool or spa place or Wal-mart costs about $6.00. If you don't want the chlorine going to service put a 10 inch inline carbon filter right after the pump. It might be better to pre dissolve the chlorine powder before filling the tank. Yes. It should be better to fill the tank on your coach with softened water. Soft water is without calcium so if your softener is working then you should not get hard water / calcium build up in the coach and especially the swamp cooler | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1469 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.16.145 Rating: N/A |
We don't use softened water from home because it has traces of salt which we don't want, no way to avoid this. Also, we soften only water going to the heater, our cold water is not softened. Again, the easiest thing to do is get soft water from some municipal water system. It works very well mixed in with our home well water which is hard. This rapidly cleared up that awful lime stuff I got in OK. (Message edited by gusc on February 23, 2012) | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 340 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 174.51.169.217 Rating: N/A |
Les, thanks for the clarification on the bleach. I thought you might be concerned about the chlorine component. Lots of folks have terrible things to say about that chemical. I, too, use the pool treatment. Probably because of the cost, but it is good to know that it is healthier. I also have a two element water filter for drinking water only. It seems to takes all the chlorine taste and smell out of the water. Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO '85 Eagle 10 Series 60 & Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission Bus Project pages: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm Blog: http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/ (Message edited by rv_safetyman on February 23, 2012) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1713 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.215.137.220 Rating: N/A |
Les, you have really opened up a Pandora box ...and thanx for doing that! Therefore, allow me another question.... ....you said put an inline filter after the pump. (mine is before the pump, but I will make that change) Does it follow then that the filters in the house should be AFTER the softener? I have two...one before and one after. Thanx. RCB | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 496 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
No you should leave the particulate filter on the feed into the tank. The filter that I said could go after the pump would be a 10 inch carbon filter to remove the chlorine that you have added to the fresh water tank just before it goes to end use. If you do put in this carbon filter, you will have to change it regularly and never leave it if you are parking the coach for any length of time as it is a great place for bacteria to grow. It will however, very effectively remove a lot of free chlorine and give the water a nice fresh taste (if you are drinking it) The softener will do nothing to make the water any better to drink but properly chlorinated then filtered it should be fair good to drink unless there is other chemical contaminates in the water to begin with. The chlorine will kill almost any microbiological that could be in your well water. If you fill with surface water there are a few bugs that chlorine wont kill so please don't fill at your nearest swamp The filters that you have in the house? are they just to remove sand and other sediment from the water? If so then they should be before the softener. If they are sacrificial to adjust ph then after the softener. Likely before is best however remember that your softener must have at least 20 to 25 PSI water pressure through the whole backwash cycle to get a complete regeneration so if the filters before the softener are getting loaded up they may starve the unit for water. If you are getting a lot of sand from the well there is a better way of filtering it out than the disposable cartridge filters and will cost less. Let me know what the filters are for and I can steer you in the right direction. Having water that isn't a headache makes life so much easier. Les | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1715 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.224.248.146 Rating: N/A |
As stated earlier, we do not drink from the coach tanks. Period. I could get into why, but just suffice it to say..... Re the house: No sand ....LOTS of efflorescence!... even on the outside of the containers. (filters) I put the filters in originally and according to my "expertise and judgement"...as with many things in life for each of us, it is/was quite possibly out of my line...... Want to talk insurance/real estate/construction/ steel fabrication and erection (steel!!!)...I can do it.. Thanx RCB | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 500 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
efflorescence? I sure wish I had a chemical break down of what is causing this in your water. If it is calcium or for that matter any exchangeable cation your softener should be removing it. If it is a bicarbonate then when you fill a clear glass with water it should look cloudy but clear from the bottom up. If it is high sodium then it is unlikely that your water would be hard as well and any deposits should be very easy to wipe off and would become resoluble and not leave hard deposits. Can you give me a few more symptoms? Milestone post for me # 500 | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 501 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
P.S. sure glad you clarified that "steel" erection was in your forte. could have been a BIG misunderstanding lol | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 464 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 75.247.101.95  Rating: N/A |
That would be for another board eh! Les I'm glad you cleared all this up? I now know that I don't have hard water but seem to still get a gaseous condition especially after Mexican food. I suppose I could add a filter or 2 or eat a lot of salt and swim in a pool eh! Chromie | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 465 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 75.247.101.95 Rating: N/A |
On a serious note . we have a carbon filter CW type that screwed onto the coach outside with the hose hooked to that when parked. We to do not drink the water just use to cook ,toilet, shower, etc. I noticed when water goes out at campground and then comes back on it is brown. Or if we turn off the water to travel and then turn it back on it is brown for a minute and then goes away. Is this just carbon leaching or all the stuff it catches going through.? are these not the best to use? Use big blue bottle which we refill at the health food store with purified water to drink etc. Thanks DaveCs | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2287 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
you don't have a piece of steel pipe somewhere in your system do you? | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 75.210.168.231 Rating: N/A |
nope, all Pex, is not rust. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 504 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Fines from carbon are almost always black and should only come through for the first few seconds when you first put it into service. From there you should not see any colour from a carbon filter. Carbon block style filters are not filters in the sense that they wont stop suspended solids. Granular carbon will filter down to about 30 microns depending on the flow rate going through the filter. A carbon filters primary function is to absorb chlorine and a few other inorganic chemicals. One of the other things that carbon will do is to pick up organic microbiological i.e. bacteria. The carbon will provide a great breading ground for these critters and you can wind up having more of them growing and coming out of the carbon filter than you ever had going into it. Pre filter before the house tank, chlorinate the tank if the water is from a non municipal supply. then have a carbon filter after the pump. Without getting to exotic this will give you as good and as safe water as you are going to get. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 639 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
See Chuck I told you you would get an ear full!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 506 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Hey Joe! You got that 92 back together yet? Didn't think so! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1678 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 67.238.59.158 Rating: N/A |
Our water tank to get rid of the sulfur gas is outside, on a stilt house , no problem. We have a neighbor the intentionally located his directly outside the guest bedroom, works like a charm. FF | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 640 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
I have all the pieces now. Son in law a making me a tool for insertion of the wrist pin plugs. So hopely by this time next week we hope to be pretty well done, that is if no distractions take place. Besides we are supposed to be retired and I take "one day at a time" a lot more serious now than I did once. Joe |