| Author |
Message |
David Anderson (168.215.176.238)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:27 pm: | |
I've got a 6v92 in an Eagle 10. The curbside exhaust pipe has a crack in the flange where it connects to the turbo. It is the pipe that makes the 90 degree sweeping turn from the curbside exhaust manifold to the turbo.
It appears the flange is machine flared. I don't think it can be welded back and properly be seated with the pipe clamp.
Where should I go to look for this pipe, or can the flange be welded?
Thanks,
David Anderson |
TWO DOGS (65.179.193.219)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:37 pm: | |
depends how thick the metal is...these wire welders & a grinder can do wonders..or..call LUKE |
John Rigby (24.174.238.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:56 pm: | |
I would look for a replacement, it is not something I think you would want to take a chance on. good weldors are well worth there pay, but I bet if you checked around someone would have a good used replacement.
Try jimmci9 he knows were to locate most engine/accessory parts.
John |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
Yeah, ANYTHING can be welded, given the right parameters, but it just might be a common enough part that replacement makes more sense.
the rear exhaust developed a crack in my FLH, and the guy at the harley shop said I had to replace it. I told him I would just weld it up myself (It's under a chrome guard for chrissakes) He sorta told me I was out of my mind.
I guess welding up an exhaust is unheard of in harley shops now...whatever.
Gary |
deacon (204.184.224.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 6:12 pm: | |
Check with a big truck dealer, some will stock a replacement end that can be welded on after cutting the bad end off. You will need to know the diamiter of your pipe and the flange diamiter for a proper fit. Or, check with a muffler shop that does big trucks. I have repaired many myself if the rest of the pipe is solid. I might even have a replacement flange left around for a 3 1/2 inch pipe. |
jimmci9 (209.240.205.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 6:18 pm: | |
any of the truck places ought to have the exhaust elbows... like kenworth, international, sterwart/stevenson... all on i-10 just outside the loop, east of san antonio... some will have the pipe fitting to put a pyrometer sender it it, some wont... if you ca find a donaldson catalogue, you can pick what you want... |
Jayjay (152.163.100.132)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 6:24 pm: | |
David, the flange nipple on most turbos is titanium or an alloy thereof, and cannot be welded without some rather exotic equipment...including a heat treat process afterwards. Then it would most likely crack again right alongside the original, due to stresses induced by the slower cooling rate of the thicker metal at the weldment. To CO or not to CO...that is the question!
Put the Old Lady on the street corner 'til you scrape up enough for a new one, since a used one is going to be very expensive also, and stands a high chance of a recurrence. ...JJ |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 7:59 pm: | |
Da Book provides for repair of exhaust piping with holes in it but fails to specify a repair method.
Diesel exhaust being cooler that Gas engines, I suspect that exhaust the piping is stainless.
I've got an extra manifold/turbo pipe for my 8V92 that's damaged and I'll practice on it one of these days.
Exhaust pipes are easily weldable with a GTAW (TIG) I've repaired stainless exhausts many times, but I've got a TIG setup in my shop and have had lots to practice on.
I've also welded Titanium, easier than I thought it would be, but I was fortunate, my welding instructor is the head of the welding shop at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. Talk about welding exotic materials!
Good observation JJ about the thicker metal problem. It's important, with thin walls to do as much as you can to minimize cross-sectional changes, that and poor welding & setup technique (too much "pedal" and insufficient backpurging) are the major causes of re-cracking.
BTW, I don't do repairs on metal waste tanks!
"As ye sow, so shall ye seep!" LOL!!
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.101.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 9:13 pm: | |
Marc, someone told me once that you needed to weld titanium on a vacuum. is this true?
I once had to replate the bottom of a hide locker in a mobile slughter truck. I have no words that can describe the smells that came out of that metal when I struck an arc.
I'll work on the dark tank any day.
Gary |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:29 am: | |
GHG, Maybe with electron beam welding or something similar, but I was doing .125 brackets with a regular GTAW setup with 100% Argon
P.S. Matthew brought the filler rod from LL Labs
Marc |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 4:36 am: | |
GHG,
BTW, the welding class developed into an ongoing competitive challenge regarding showing compentency in welding by different techniques and of various metals.
There was a very talented group of people in the class. Every week we'd wait with nervous expectancy wondering what new "challenge" Matthew would bring us. I think he delighted in "stretching" our minds. Most of the class were vetran welders and would say "You can't do that!". Matthew wouldn't show us, he'd make us do it, ourselves!
We never got to see the electron beam welding stuff, that field trip was nixed in the bud due to security issues.
Aluminum and stainless soon became passe' Copper was the toughest, technically. I sandbagged the rest of the class and watched all the others struggle. As the last, I had the only decent copper weld but truth be told, I was just lucky. I'd melt alot of material and waste alot of electrons before I got that one right again! I think we were drawing enough juice to "brown-out" the city that night!
Another interesting technique was DC welding Aluminum. Usually, Aluminum TIG is by AC, using Argon and lots of Amps compared to equivalent thicknesses of Steel. This other technique was DC, reverse polarity with HUGE amps and helium. But you could weld 1/2" Alu with a big fillet in a single pass almost as fast as you could feed the filler rod. It looked beautiful. If I ever was going to fabricate a custom bumper for a truck, etc., that's the way I'd go. MIG welding of SS and Alu , by comparison, was "dirty". This DC method was art museum quality stuff.
Even though we stood around watching eachother, I was telling myself as I finished that nobody would ever believe me if I said that I had done this. Still have all my samples here someplace.
Matthew, our instructor, was both a great guy and talented teacher with the same type of personal spirit as Luke at US Coach. I consider myself lucky to know both.
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
JCB (12.220.190.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 8:49 am: | |
The end is machined and you can have it replaced by having it cut off and a new flange welded on to the pipe but it has to be precise no room for error. I had mine done here in Louisville KY by Republic Desiel. Cost about $90.00 compared to $150.00 for a replacement from DD and they are the only people that have them since it is on a bus. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:08 am: | |
Marc,
I have wondered about welding Bronze. I know the prop-shops do it, but I never got a straight answer how, for all I know they're using oxy/acet.
My TIG experience is with hi-freq AC/Argon, one of our specialities was welding up Alcoas, it was a two man job though, me with the TIG torch and the other guy with a rosebud.
Also, I was the only guy around that would weld magnesium, we had lots of customers from the logging industry, and lots of chainsaws are made of MAG. I never set one afire that I didn't intend to.
I know a guy that looks like Howard Stern that is the most amazing spark-slinger I ever saw. He has welded everything from Nuclear Sub Reactors (Big), to Semiconductor manufacturing piping (Tiny). the last time I was in his shop, he tossed me a piece of stainless pipe. it has a stacked coin weld around it that you could see, but could not feel. He said that it was in the pharmaceutical industry, and the "Medicine" can't get trapped in the scallops in the weld, and you're not allowed to grind, either.
I have no problem using my MIG for SS, but everything I'm doing gets ground. the big difference is the resulting surface appearance. To my knowledge there is no strength issues.
I am in the market for a TIG machine.
Gary |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | |
GHG
I have a single phase 300A Airco, at home and am in the process of acquiring a Miller 3 phase to use at the shop . I've not "kept up" with where you live. I've got a foot control, cooling pump and radiator setup on the Airco and small and medium torch assys. If you're close to Stockton, Ca and want to take a look and chat about the respective merits of both machines or/and you can call me at 209-942-2002.
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Hi Marc,
I'm in greater Motown now, formerly was in Alameda (Still have my boat there).
My Mom's side is one of the founding families of Oakdale BTW.
I'm racing against time to have my pitiful excuse for a shop ready for winter (Winters here are serious) Maybe after that I'll be looking at some units, being in a rural/residential area, three-phase is not an option unfortunately.
Did you see the post I made a couple of months ago about two Hobart 300A units for $200? Three phase of course.
Right now I have to satisfy myself with my little miller 185 MIG.
Gary |
David Anderson (168.215.176.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
Luke @ US Coach found me the pipe. $238 OUCH! I figured it would be about $110. At least I didn't have to order the clamps. They were almost as much.
Oh well, I don't play golf, drink, or have a mistress, so this is my only toy. I might as well spend it where I enjoy it most. Thanks for your help.
David Anderson |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Guess you know the area then, you actually should be "Chocolate Head Gary" after the Hershey Factory in Oakdale.
Who's exercising your boat while you're gone! LOL!
I was born in Motown. If you're nice, I'll hook you up with Bob Sheaves, a local busnut and top-flite auto engineer. You'll have lots to butt heads over! ROFL!!!
Either of the Hobarts still available?
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:21 pm: | |
A little, I didn't grow up there, but I guess my mom worked at the choco-factory for a while. when the wind blows just right you can get the smell from hershey factory and the Hunt's Ketchup factory at the same time and it smells....well....real bad.
It's on the hard, I don't plan to have it in the water for another few years.
Send me a message offline, we're crosstalkin' this thread pretty bad.
Gary |
Jayjay (64.12.116.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 9:20 pm: | |
Gary- bronze is brazed, not welded, and if more than guage thickness it should be preheated to stop shock heating/cooling stess cracks. A good rosebud, and a big budget to cover cost of Oxygen/acetylene are a must. ...JJ |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.101.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:03 pm: | |
I have trouble with answer that for several reasons.
1) How can a process that uses non-dissimilar metals be called Brazing?
2) Brazing = Brass (Brass is BAD!)
3) A process similar to brazing, but using bronze is called "Bronze Welding", but in the scope of my question, please refer to #1.
Marc's mention of welding copper brought it to mind, so I asked, thinking maybe he'd done that.
A quick search gave a gazillion hits, but I found this one most informative.
Welding Advisers
It looks like the most prevalent method is MIG, I found lots of links for spools of wire.
Gary |
Stan (68.150.152.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 8:44 am: | |
Gary: I think your opinions are based on what you were taught but there are many books that usually arrive at the same conclusion by various routes. For example, I was taught that brazing is high temperature soldering without regard to the type of filler rod used. Welding involves melting of the parent metal.
Apparently your instructors had a different definition for these terms.
I am smiling that all this discussion started with my humerous (totaly rediculous) suggestion to try a cast bronze holding tank. |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 9:30 am: | |
You mean you were spoofing us without using an emoticon? SHAME ON YOU SAM!
lol!!!
Marc |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.101.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:00 am: | |
Not opinion, Industry accepted terminoligy.
Soldering is joining base metals with a dissimilar filler material that has a <900 (or something like that) degree melting point, Brazing is joining based metals with a dissimilar filler material that has a melting point above 900 (Whatever) degrees.
Both of these methods use capillary action to join metals.
Joining Bronze to bronze does not involve dissiimilar metals, nor does it use capillary action, so it cannot be considered brazing by any definition that I know of.
My question was in response to Marc's note about welding copper (Not Brazing or Soldering). not about your obviouse humor regarding a bronze tank. Sorry. Welding Copper is HARD to do.
OK, now everyone line up and tell me why it's still brazing for chrissakes.
Gary |
Stan (68.150.152.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
Gary: I am glad you agree with my definition of brazing. I was afraid that you would want to argue about it.
I frequently join bronze to bronze with 55% silver solder with oxy-acet. My reference is "Modern Welding" by Althouse, Turnquist, Bowditch and Bowditch.
They say the correct term for silver soldering is silver brazing because the temperature is above 840 F with the melting point of the various silver alloys being between 1125 F and 1145 F. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:50 pm: | |
My Dad always called it "Silver Solder", I still say it that way myself, by habit. Although--What my Dad used was REAL SILVER, not the SilPhos (sp?) that I have used. I'm not sure what the melting point of real silver is.
This discussion led me to go look it up though, I'm going to get some bronze wire for my Mig, I have some small parts that I need to fix, unfortunately I already paid the propshop to do my props.
Gary |
Stan (68.150.152.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 9:01 pm: | |
Silphos (sp?) may be a tradename but is used as a generic name and is a completely different thing than silver solder. I have it from two different manufacturers and one calls it 'Stay-Sil' a silver brazing alloy and the other one just calls it a silver brazing alloy. It is available in stick form by the pound in 5%, 10% and 15% silver. It melts like lead over a wide temperature range and you can fill large gaps with it.
Silver solder comes in wire form (.030" - .060") by the ounce. It starts about 35% silver up to 55%. It melts like ice, instant change from solid to liquid and the recommended clearance for a joint is .001". It will capillary into the smallest crack but will not stay in a large gap. At a thickness of .001" I believe the tensile strength is 70,000 PSI.
Other than looking at the packages, this information is from memory and there may be some changes in what is available, but I have used a lot of both products. An ounce of siver solder costs about the same price as a pound of Stay-Sil.
Gary. I have dealt extensively with a local broze caster and if you ask him for bronze he asks what do you want. There is no defined alloy for bronze. He makes the alloy to give a desired color (most of his work is decorative) or to meet some other requirement. I am sure it can be welded, but the wide range of alloys may make it difficult to find a suitable mig wire. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.101.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 9:39 pm: | |
The parts that I need to repair are either to be painted or plated, and are not under load, so I'm not to paranoid about exact alloy match.
Gary |