| Author | Message | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
Rating: |
WOOHOO! I bought one of those articulated 60 foot New Flyer buses. It's a '91 model with a DD 6V92 with an Allison 748 auto tranny. I know, I've read a bit about these things being problematic... but for $6000 (including storage fees for 6 months), I just couldn't pass the deal up. She's beautiful, very clean and runs great! The only bad thing is... it's over 1000 miles away and I have to drive there to get it. That's gunna suck. But man, what a catch I think. It's currently set for 320hp output from the engine, and I got a digital copy of the service/operators manual for the engine... so, hopefully with a little luck, I'll get her home without much trouble. The tires are in very good condition too. Nothing like 10 tires to replace when they go thin! OY! Have any of you had experience with these artic's? What kind of problems will I run into, besides the obvious wiring/plumbing hassles? -Kevin | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
What are you going to do with it? You can't drive it on the road. It's my understanding you need a permit wherever you drive it. Gary | ||
| Daris Rating: N/A |
Don't mean to rain on your parade, but can you have a motorhome over 45 feet? I think in California, it's a 45 feet maximum and anything over 40 feet is limited to certain highways and/or roads. Regards, Daris | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
Rating: N/A |
I'll have to look up the MV code to see, but I don't recall there being any limitations to length in the state I'm going to register it in.. I can already get insurance no problem as long as it meets the motorhome definition. It'll just be something I need to work with. If it turns out I can't do anything with it... I know I can turn around and sell it fairly quick. I don't anticipate any problems in this area.  -Kevin | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
Problems: Congrats: Problems: Bus prob is only geared for about 60mph Permit needed or at very least a Class A CDL Center pivots go bad and cost many thousands of dollars no underfloor storage. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gosh, I love hearing, er, reading, of your enthusiasm! It's great. The comments advanced have been mentioned before. It's good that you have an alternative disposition plan, if needed. Hope it works out for you. You'll be doing a bunch of research into areas not normally explored by busnuts. Don't be dissuaded from discussing the results at various points of your investigation. There's lots of Busnuts here that have great knowledge and perspective and are happy to help a positive thinker. Ignore the pure naysayers! Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
Rating: N/A |
Naysayers usually have a point somewhere to be made, it just has to be weeded out from between the lines. As for the center pivots, yes... I know they go bad. But by the time I travel far enough for it to go bad, I'll be ready for another bus. Right now, it has no play, no thunking, it works perfectly... And worse comes to worse, I can always salvage everything off it for another bus. I've been doing some reading... I can move to Iowa and have an RV the length of 70 feet if I wish... but I think since it's an articulated bus... it's technically a 30 foot bus with a 30 foot trailer... It'll be interesting to see how the folks up at the DMV handle it... and I'll certainly try to go to one of those little DMV "outposts" where they're a little less stringent on registration requirements... I have a copy of the traffic code if I need to point certain things out to 'em. I'm just going to have fun with this... it's my first real bus... And if it just doesn't work out, I'll get something else... But I think I can overcome the hurtles on this. I can be quite resourceful when need be! Other than that... anybody know any other pitfalls I should watch out for? -Kevin | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
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A non commercial CDL (what?) plus maybe a short term travel permit and away you go. Do not let us fuddy duddies ruin your day. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
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oh yea, I forgot to address the CDL thing, didn't I? Since it can't be classified as a COMMERCIAL vehicle... a CDL is not required. At most (I've researched this too), I'd be required to have an Air Brake endorsement on my normal license. I haven't gotten that far into the DMV codes to know yet or not... but, I'd like to have it just to show I know the basics of how they work. -Kevin | ||
| darisb Rating: N/A |
That's great. My own experience with the DMV in California was that I got a different answer every time I talked to a different person. Talk to 10 different people, and get 10 different answers. The clerk that registered my bus insisted on registering it as a commercial vehicle, and charging me accordingly. It didn't matter what I said. I ended demanding to talk to a supervisor, before they would register it as an automobile. They refused to register it as a motorhome because it did not have all of the required ammenities. I left happy. Good luck. Daris | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
Rating: N/A |
Yes, I'll have to have a "bare essentials" conversion done before I get it to the DMV for full registration... I've been told I can use things like a portapotty, a foldaway bed, a gas grill/range, etc... basically camp equipment, as long as it's a "permanent" part of the rig (tie it down), they'll accept it... I've got most of the stuff needed... so, it shouldn't be too tough once I get it. Getting the seats out will be the hardest thing I think. There are 69 of them. I'll leave the seating for 4 in the artic joint though... Since I really can't have anything else in there, might as well use it for something than nothing! -Kevin | ||
| Bill Cable (Fe2_o3)
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Kevin... Congrat's on your new bus. I've been driving the New Flyer Artics for a while now and I love them. I drive them for a transit company in WA. State. Is it a low floor or a conventional model? We use both. I think the only problem we've had with the low floor design is occasional coolant leeks from the ceiling at the critical hinge where the heaters are. From what I've been told, some states may require a CDL B with air endorsement. Best of luck. Bill | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
... anybody know any other pitfalls I should watch out for? YOUR WIFE once she finds out!!! Keep up the enthusiasm! | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Uhmm.. Out of curiosity, where do you plan to stay with this rig? And getting fuel...? Most "campers" don't like following the mainstream, like being confined to truck stops, specific camp grounds, etc etc.. The larger the "RV", the less "unrestricted" you become. Is that what you're really after? If so, GREAT! You got what you need! Congrats!!! A 60' articulated bus. (that's 20' more headache than most of us desire) | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus
Rating: N/A |
hehe... My wife already knows. She likes it, but will be happier when she can see it in person for herself. As for which model it is, I'm honestly not sure if it's the low floor model or not. I'll make do one way or the other tho. :D How can I tell by looking at a picture? Camp grounds... Well, since it'll also be our *home* for the time being... I'm a little less worried about that. Once we have an actual brick/mortar house, it'll be our vacation getaway. We'll mostly travel coastal regions, so I'm sure I'll find parking one way or another. Being confined to truck stops isn't such a bad deal... they're all over the place. This thing will give us more freedom than we currently have as it is. The extra space is a necessity. Having some restrictions to where we can go is a tradeoff for the extra space we desire. We have two kids... And want another. :D We won't be typical "campers"... It'll be our rolling home... Snowbirds, if you will. Go north for the summer, south for the winter. I like the snow... the wife doesn't... her desires outweigh mine in this case. We'll just move where the work takes us... We're looking forward to a change in lifestyle, and scenery. She wants to explore a bit before finding a place to really settle down... having the bigger rig will facillitate in that endeavor. Since this will all be very new to us... It's more of an adventure than anything else. We're both good with our hands... I love to build, she loves to correct my "mistakes". ;) Where we'll stow the woodshop might be a bit of a problem on the road... but we'll make do. | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905)
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I just youmight like to I have 4905 and I pull a 30' trailer and I usally have to unhook in a camp ground. Pain but sometimes needed.Total of 70'. Mike4905 | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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...Why would you need a class A CDL, or Class 1 Canadian equiv? It's not a tractor-trailer; it's a permanent trailer artic... Class B CDL, or Class 2 Canadian... Just need a bus license.. .Even if you need that. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
From everything I've read, RV use of any type of bus is specifically exempted from the requirement of a CDL, because it's non-commercial. It doesn't fit the requirements of a CDL... So a CDL can't be legally required, period. The state I'm going to be moving to (Oklahoma) has a specific statement in their codes that exempts the exemption (!) if the vehicle has seating for 16 or more, including the driver. In which case, a CDL (chauffer's(sp?) license) is required... I don't plan to have seating for more than 10 people, excluding the driver... so that knocks me out of the loop back into standard RV classifications. The only thing that might be a hitch is the length of the bus... but as Derek said and I mentioned previously... it's basically a bus with a permanent 30 foot trailer... it just happens to have the propulsion in the trailer, which is a bit unconventional if you think about it. If I have to, I'll hire a lawyer to find the loopholes to get it registered and on the road legally. I know it can be done, I'm one of those people that just doesn't take "No" for an answer, unless my wife's the one saying it, but even then I'll argue until at least one of us is blue in the face before giving up! Mike... I really thought hard and serious about getting one of the older GMC's or an MCI. I really love them, they're very nice looking, and can be a real pleasure to just sit down and look at... and the basement area is a real advantage... I wish I could have found one in great shape for the right price, but.... for $6k, and a 1991 60 footer... There just wasn't a better bargain for me to find. Even with the lack of basement storage, there's plenty of room for me to build cabinets and hide the various components. The only thing I'm going to have to be REALLY careful with is weight distribution... Which brings me to the next question... Where the heck should I put the bathroom? It will have a grey/black and clear tank all for itself. The clear will be a 105 gallon tank for the jacuzzi/bathtub alone. It's not for drinking, and will have an active filtration system and be chemically maintained.... These three tanks together will weigh a considerable amount... Should I place the bathroom in the very back? Or should I put it in the middle, just forward the artic joint? I can see advantages and disadvantages to both strategies. My biggest concern for the back is that the rear end itself will be loaded down pretty severely with all the water, but at the same time, the middle would be just as prone to the same problem. I absolutely do not want to place anything of major weight just behind the joint, for accellerated wear and tear reasons... I don't want to give that joint a REASON to fail prematurely. Anyone with any kind of experience/ideas with this? -Kevin | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Wherever you end up putting the tanks, you oughta' look into getting a macerator/pump for dumping. I seriously doubt you're going to get too close to any conventional dumping station. You may need a LONG, smaller diameter hose, and be able to pump the waste into a toilet somewhere. | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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Kevin; try to look up the definition of a vehicle that falls under a Class A-type in your home State... And argue from there. "It bends, it's a class A." "It cannot uncouple though, it's a bus." "But it bends." Enjoy! (FWIW, the transit guys up here are running those new D60LF's with just Class 2 (Class B).) | ||
| MCI Larry (Eurof3)
Rating: N/A |
Wow $6,000 what a deal. The tranny is worth that much ! I spent that much just looking for a good bus. Better look out ! My state made me take our 40 ft coach to have it inspected. You know, make sure it had all the motorhome stuff in it and check the tires, break linings, lights, wheels, center links,air bag, windshield glass chips, steering wheel play, stopping distance, the weight, and on and on..... JUST KIDDING ! I think that must of been what I was expecting to happen. But fact is. All they wanted to do was put a new set of vin numbers on it. Go from commercial to Motorhome so I could get insurance. The inspector asked me if I needed seat belts. Heck I would have thought he should have known that. I got to listen to his story about the motorhome he just bought! With your determination and good attitude. You will have a great adventure bays or no bays. My first bus caught on fire on the way home. That was an adventure too. Oh yes 1 way 1 day rental cars are a cheep way to get 1000 miles. But you only got 24 hours to get there. Get the car reserved in advance and it will be only about $100+ gas. Take a credit card with lots of money available for the ride home. Buses are top dollar breakdowns. THE VERY BEST OF LUCK, Go Man GO let us know how you do ! Larry | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
First thing to practice will be backing up, as a poor choice of roads is bound to happen someday. At 60 ft for long vacations, what will you do for a towd? Should be a really interisting/unique bus to camp with. FAST FRED | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
In most states you have to get a permit to use it. Second it does exceed the lenght laws of every state and it is not a truck trailer as the rear is not detachable. Finally check with your insurance agent and make sure you can get insurance. This could be your biggest hurdle. There used to be a BusNut in Washington I believe who had one, but kept it parked in a park and did not use it to travel. | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
Second point the seller must be over joyed that you will pay that much money for dead inventory. In Minneapolis they would have given me one if I just would come and pick it up. Sorry to rain on your parade. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
John... I had planned on permanently installing a mac pump, just because I've read of the horror stories about dumping the tanks, especially the black tank. It's nice to hear another reason for it though. Derek... I just don't know what they'll do yet. I'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully, it won't be too difficult to talk some reason into them about it. Larry... $6k just for a tranny? Wow, that's rough. Guess I bought a tranny with a free bus included. Sorry to hear about your first bus though... was it salvagable? Were you able to save it from its self destructive tendencies? As for inspections... I have a story of my own in that regard. I also have an old "Bookmobile". It's built on a 30ft skoolie chassis. I took it up to the station and ya know what they did? Nothing. He climbed up into the seat and put the sticker on the windshield... I debated on whether or not to ask why he didn't even bother starting it, and he said he's not a bus driver nor a bus mechanic, so the only thing he could do was this: If I drove it up, it must work. That was it! I was amazed! But... really not surprised. As for car rental... I can't do that. I'm actually going to be moving at the same time I get the bus. So, I'll be renting a big UHaul trailer to put everything in and haul it with my van (it's a 3/4 ton, but I upgraded the engine to a 350 with Edelbrock modifications for extra low end torque). I built it up to pull a 30ft travel trailer I recently sold in order to get the bus. I've basically got an entire household and a woodshop to take with me! As for credit cards... I have none... and I'll never get into that mess again... if I break down, I'll have to fix it. That's one reason I bought a copy of the service manual. I'll eventually have to buy the tools I need to go with it, but I may also go to school to train for diesel mechanic. I'm rather tired of the IT industry, and am just ready for a change in everything. Change is a good thing if it's controlled. Fast Fred... Backing up is the one thing I'm really scared of with this thing. It's HUGE. I've backed up the little 30 footer I've got, but it's nothing compared to 60 feet. As for a toad... I might be in for it on that one. I think the best thing I'll be able to do is a Geo Metro, since it seems 70 feet is the maximum length of any vehicle plus a towed vehicle... I may have to find something even smaller, but that doesn't really worry me that much. I also have a motorcycle I can throw on a back platform if I absolutely have to. All I can say about that is... "I'll figure something out". Isn't that what we, as a group, do best? Yes... It'll be very interesting. The reactions I'm getting to the pictures from the people I work with is absolutely great! At first glance, they think it's just a normal bus, then I ask them to look at the wheels... and their eyes start to bug out... they see 3 sets... 10 tires... and they ask just how big that thing is... when I tell them 60 feet, the look is priceless every time! I love it! Pulling into camp grounds and truck stops is going to be an adventure every time too. I'm sure people will want to get a closer look, it's not usually every day you see one of these things, and apparently very few exist as motorhomes. It's going to be really fun... I can hardly wait to get her and get started. Oh yea, since I'm a FarScape fan, I've named her "The Road Leviathan". I think it appropriately fits. I'm not sure what the policy is on linking to an eBay page, but since it's not something for sale and it's something I bought already... I will go ahead and post it. It includes pictures of her, and a video of her running. She sounds great... and when the shot goes in through the front door, take a look at that dash panel. I've got high res pictures of that too. I've got to get a server up to post them tho... my ISP only allows like 5 megs of data for free... crazy when I have 2GB on a yahoo email account and a GMail account... heh http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2496354118&rd=1&sspagename=S TRK%3AMEWN%3AIT Enjoy! I have to go to work out of town for the day, so I won't have access to the board again until later, probably this evening sometime. -Kevin | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Figures someone would get a post or two in before I got that long reply put back up. hehe... I've already checked with my insurance agent, they'll insure it as long as it meets the definition of a motorhome. As for the length laws... It's something I'll have to figure out. I'm sure there's a loophole or exception somewhere for private non-commercial owners. There's always a way to do any given thing in the world of humans, the trick is just finding it. As for giving one to you... Heck man, give me the number, there were 4 other people wanting this thing for this price right behind me. I'd make a small fortune! And don't think you can rain on my parade at all... My parade has boats, floats and umbrellas! Did I mention it has the worlds largest automatic awning, too? -Kevin | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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Kevin; "Fast Fred... Backing up is the one thing I'm really scared of with this thing. It's HUGE. I've backed up the little 30 footer I've got, but it's nothing compared to 60 feet." Think of it as a 30 foot truck with a 30ft trailer. They're not hard to back up at all, I've seen novie drivers do it with those Prevost H5-60's no problem... | ||
| Robert Wood (Bobwoodsocal)
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WOW, Kevin, that is a beast! Looks like a clean motor in there. It will be interesting to see it once you get going on the conversion. Better get an intercom so you don't have to shout from the front to the back! Keep us posted, OK? Have fun Kevin! Bob | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Derek... That's what I've been told... but I've never driven a 30ft truck with a 30ft trailer. :D The bus I have in my back yard right now is 30ft, but I've never had anything attached to it... Heck, I've only towed a boat once in my life... so.. I've got a good learning curve to hit! Robert... Thanks. She's a beauty, isn't she? As for the intercom... it has one! -Kevin | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Does anyone know if there are the same or similiar to the ones that were used at the Cape for hauling visitors? Seems like some of them were on the market a few years ago but they had no takers. Richard | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Those were not articulateds though were they? (Just bloody big busses) I was looking about for eurostyles and ran across them, they said something like, 155 passenger bus....real big....price?....real cheap....Hmmm.....Waaaitaminute, I remember these... You can't take them anywhere, oversize in almost every direction. If a guy could shorten one, it would be a whoppin' deal, something like a 550 HP engine IIRC. Gary | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert)
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Sorry But you are wrong about Iowa( I work for Iowa Dot) Here is Iowas Laws. Vehicle Dimensions The maximum legal dimensions allowed on Iowa roadways. Length 40’ single vehicle 45’ bus 61’ articulated bus 45’ motor home 65’ motor home towing another vehicle, or any vehicle towing a travel trailer or 5th wheel travel trailer 70’ combination of three vehicles other than truck-tractor Combinations of four or more vehicles are not allowed, except power units saddle-mounted or full-mounted on other power units. They shall not exceed 75’ in overall length. 53’ maximum – Semitrailer, loaded or empty 57’ lowboy trailers used exclusively for the transportation of construction equipment when used in a truck-tractor semitrailer combination 28’6” maximum – Trailers or semitrailers when used in double-bottom combination No overall length limits on truck-tractor, semitrailer combinations. 65’ maximum – Power units designed to carry cargo when used in combination with a trailer or semitrailer. When used exclusively for transporting automobiles, boats or recreational vehicle chassis; 3’ overhang in front and 4’ overhang in rear is allowed in addition to the overall length. 75’ stinger steer auto transports Width 8’6” Height 13’6” 14’ auto transporters hauling passenger vehicles, light delivery trucks, pickup trucks or recreational vehicle chassis | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin Here is OKlahoma Law §47-14-103. Except as otherwise provided for by this chapter: A. No vehicle, with or without load, shall have a total outside width in excess of one hundred and two (102) inches excluding both tire bulge and approved safety devices when operated on any road or highway in this state. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to any person engaged in the hauling of round baled hay with a total outside width of eleven (11) feet or less when the hay is owned by such person and is being hauled for any purpose other than resale. B. No vehicle, with or without load, shall exceed a height of thirteen and one-half (13 1/2) feet. C. 1. No single truck, with or without load, shall have an overall length, inclusive of front and rear bumpers, in excess of forty-five (45) feet. 2. No single bus, with or without load, shall have an overall length, inclusive of front and rear bumpers, in excess of forty-five (45) feet. 3. a. On the National Network of highways which includes the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways and four-lane divided Federal Aid Primary System Highways, no semitrailer operating in a truck tractor/semitrailer combination shall have a length greater than fifty-three (53) feet, except as provided for in subsection C of Section 14-118 of this title which shall apply to semitrailers exceeding fifty-three (53) feet but not exceeding fifty-nine (59) feet six (6) inches. On the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways and four-lane divided Federal Aid Primary System Highways, no semitrailer or trailer operating in a truck- tractor/semitrailer and trailer combination shall have a length greater than fifty-three (53) feet. b. On roads and highways not a part of the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways or four-lane divided Federal Aid Primary System Highways, no semitrailer operating in a truck-tractor/semitrailer combination shall have a length greater than fifty-three (53) feet and no semitrailer or trailer operating in a truck-tractor/semitrailer and trailer combination shall have a length greater than twenty-nine (29) feet. Except as provided for in subsection D of Section 14-118 of this title, no other combination of vehicles shall have an overall length, inclusive of front and rear bumpers, in excess of seventy (70) feet on all roads and highways. For the purposes of this paragraph, oil field rig-up trucks shall be considered to be truck-tractors, when towing a trailer or semitrailer. 4. No combination of vehicles shall consist of more than two units, except: a. one truck and semitrailer or truck-tractor/semitrailer combination may tow one complete trailer or semitrailer; or b. vans, suburbans, blazers or other similar types of vehicles and self-propelled recreational vehicles with a three-quarter (3/4) ton or more rated capacity, may tow a semitrailer and one complete trailer or semitrailer for recreational purposes only, provided the overall length, inclusive of the front and rear bumpers, does not exceed sixty-five (65) feet. 5. Poles and gas lines used to maintain public utility services, not to include new construction, may be moved during daylight hours, and during nighttime hours only in an emergency, subject to traffic and road restrictions promulgated by the Commissioner of Public Safety, when the overall length does not exceed eighty (80) feet. When this length is exceeded, these loads are subject to the requirements of Section 14-118 of this title. 6. For the purposes of subparagraphs 1, 3, and 4 of this paragraph, the length of unitized equipment, which is defined to be equipment so constructed and attached to a rubber-tired vehicle that the vehicle and load become a unit and are for all practical purposes inseparable, shall be the length of the vehicle itself, and shall not include any protrusion of the equipment load so constructed or attached. Said equipment shall not protrude for a distance greater than two-thirds (2/3) of the wheel base of said vehicle, shall not impair the driver's vision, and if less than seven (7) feet above the roadway, shall be safely marked, flagged or illuminated. Any such protruding structure shall be securely held in place to prevent dropping or swaying. Unitized equipment shall carry such safety equipment as shall be determined to be necessary for the safety, health, and welfare of the driving public by the Commissioner of Public Safety. 7. For the purposes of subparagraphs 1, 3, and 4 of this paragraph, a truck-tractor, when being towed by another vehicle with the wheels of its steering axle raised off the roadway, shall be considered to be a semitrailer as defined in Section 1-162 of this title. 8. The provisions of subparagraphs 1 and 3 of this paragraph shall not apply to any contractor or subcontractor, or his agents or employees, while engaged in transporting material to the site of a project being constructed by, for, or on behalf of this state or any city, town, county, or subdivision of this state. 9. Special mobilized machinery, as defined in Section 1102 of this title, which exceeds the size provisions of this section shall only use the highways of the State of Oklahoma by special permit issued by the Commissioner of Public Safety or his authorized representative. Such special permit shall be: a. a single-trip permit issued under the provisions of Section 14-116 of this title, or b. a special annual oversize permit issued for one calendar year period upon payment of a fee of Ten Dollars ($10.00) plus any amount as provided by subsection D of Section 1129 of this title. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
But see, the problem lies in the fact this excludes any mention of "motorhome" or "Recreational Vehicle". Once it's classified as a motorhome/RV, it's no longer a "bus", they're different under the law. Which is where I think my "loophole"/exception will be. "I'll figure it out" seems to be the catch phrase.... -Kevin | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Many have gone before you on this one, there's no way out. You can't legally have a 60' coach. Straight up. many states had to create special laws to allow 42' motorhomes, (Up to 45') Start thinking about your options on this one. Gary | ||
| Abajaba Rating: N/A |
Didn't the IOWA DOT person say that an articulated coach can be up to 61 feet? I guess it said bus. But it said a Motor home pulling another vehicle can be up to 65 feet. | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert)
Rating: N/A |
Even If you Get it through in oklahoma it wont do you much good to have it! Unless that is the only state you will travel in. I happen to know someone who spent lots of time and $ and Home built a motor home from scatch. Got it licensed in there state and got it inpounded in AZ. IT Did not meet there laws to be on the road! I know there is a misunderstanding about what the DOT can do! Just because you are not commercial does not mean they cant pull you over and check your rig out for safety! In Iowa the Dot can pull over any vehicle Car, truck, what ever! Not real common But they can and will. none cdl private person in a pickup can get a ticket for being over there registered weight! Just a little more info! All I can say is good luck and if you do go on with this bus check the laws for each state you travel to. Hate to see you go through all the work and then loose it in some state!! Iowa Dot Ethan 1981 Eagle 10 | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
Holy crap kevin! That's a big one! I'd be up for the challenge. I'd give myself some time to work on it though. I'd be concerned about the gear ratio. Beefin' that up may cost a bit, but can be done. I drove around with a permit taped in the back window of my Eagle for over a year. I would just buy a month permit whenever I was planning to drive. When I finally licensed it, they didn't even check the "motor-home" status. In MN they could not agree what kind of license I personally needed. They finally agreed on a class B with an "exception" and then the lady called me back and told me she discovered a class C would be fine. It's different at every DMV, even within the same state. I think the rules are up to different individuals interpretations. Many years ago I traveled around in a band and drove the bus all the time. We were stopped on occasion and the officers never said anything about my license. I used to like when they would send the drug dogs into the bus on the Canadian border. Talk about disciplined dogs. We had no drugs, but the floor was always full of popcorn, cough drops and crumbs. The dog would never even hesitate at the potential snacks. As far as legal length in any given state... I ain't touching that one. I haven't got a clue. It's kinda' scary reading through the posts and seeing all the rules that could be a problem. Good luck! | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
State Laws can be different; local regulations more so. What should concern the owner of an odd-sized/over-sized vehicle, is how the laws will effect liability in the case of an accident. Ignorance of a law does not provide exception to it. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Well, if it's an unfortunate fact that I must have a special permit to travel, then that's just a fact I'll have to deal with. It'll be cheaper than property taxes, any day if you ask me. I think I can challenge the state(s) on it with the right argument, but if it turns out to be a bigger hassle than it's worth, then I'll get a 45ft coach. Either way, I'm going to have to "make do with what I've got". I don't have the luxury of switching gears right now, it's an impossibility. As for gear ratios, it's capable of cruising at between 60 to 65 on the highway the way it is... I really don't see a need or a desire to go faster in a vehicle this size... Even in my van, I tend to take it a little slower than everyone else... Now, stick me in my 280ZX (when it's running), and I'll just about run people off the road to get them out of my way... Don't ask me why, but the bigger the vehicle, the more relaxed I am driving... So I drive slower. :: shrugs :: who knows? My insurance company has already told me that if it meets the state requirements and definitions of a "motorhome", then they'll insure it as such... So I'm really not worried about it. They are aware that it is, in fact, 60 feet and articulated.... So, if my insurance company isn't worried about it... I'm not going to either. One step at a time, one hurdle at a time, and one day at a time. I really can't think of how I can do it any better. There's a lot of complaining about how big my bus is... I'm sure I'll hear a bit from the DOT too, but the simple fact is... I bought it. It's mine, and I'm going to have to deal with it one way or another... Instead of finding reasons why I CAN'T put it on the road... why don't you find ways that I *CAN*? Productivity isn't accomplished by telling someone they can't do something, only by showing them the way to do something is something accomplished. Let me explain first that this isn't a vacation rig. It's a HOME. On wheels. I'm going to be moving it maybe four times a year total, so it won't get a significant amount of mileage. I plan to retire in it, honestly. We may take it down to Florida now and then for a vacation on the beach, we may take it to Cali instead, I don't know... but point is, I can get by with permits if that's what it's going to take. So... Tell me how I CAN do it, instead of how I CAN'T. -Kevin | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Kevin- Your right - its quite easy to do - contact a trucking company that does overdimensional transport interstate - they can give the name of a permit agency or two - give them the vin# of your rig , dimensions , dates of travel , and your location and destination - they will contact all the authorities along the route - in turn, they will provide approved routing directions , and the required permits for each jurisdiction - Price and route is usualy based on dimensions - so it shouldn't be that bad to just be over length - Hope this helps - Niles (the CAN DO GUY) | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Thank you. Finally, someone with something positive to say about the ability to travel! Now I have a direction to look in, and work with. See? Why couldn't that have been said 20 messages ago. -Kevin | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
kevin... i'm the owner of an old '54 gm tdh 5105... bought it on ebay last december for $1500... spent $600 getting it towed, 'cause it hadn't been started or driven for over 7 yrs... i'm a caterpillar mechanic, and work on detroits and allisons too.. woodwork is easy, 'cause ive got the tools... the old 5105 has lots of corrosion... and it'll never be a traveling type coach....but i can make it a nice condo-on-wheels....so good luck with yours!!! | ||
| scenic 529 Rating: N/A |
Kevin, You can just apply for permits yourself. You don't have to use a 'service'. Different states have various time windows; the shortest I recall is Maryland at 7 days. In your home state, you may be able to purchase an annual permit. Tennessee charges $30 for my annual oversize boat permit. Most if not all states have a DOT website, where you can get all info, download applications, etc. As I recall, most 'one time' permits range from $15 to $30 depending on the state. | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
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Kevin, I know it is rude to be nosey, but I am just curious. You are planning to sell your home at some point and live in the coach until circumstances make you want to settle somewhere? That sounds like an exciting adventure. I really hope everything works out. That would be considered an alternate lifestyle. I'm all for breaking the mold. Life is short. Adventure is good. Just keep smiling and driving. My wife and I already have our coach about half way finished. We plan to put a studio in it so we can travel and I can still work on the urgent things. We are saving for when my son graduates and I retire. At that time we want to sell the home and buy a large boat and do the same to it. By land or by sea will be the big travel question at that point. Big boat, big bus, no house... Just a lot on the sea shore with a dock and bus parking. People always laugh about my ideas, but we do them and enjoy life a lot. I hope we get this one done too. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Kev... I've had enough dealings with insurance companies to know if they say: "if it meets the state requirements and definitions of a "motorhome", then they'll insure it as such... " it better be meeting the requirements of the state you happen to be in at the time you find the need to make use of their services. Be careful and read their fine print. Get a rider if possible, to make sure you're covered regardless where you go. Or best, pay an attorney for his advice regarding your policy. It sounds like a fun thing to have, but like anything that's unconventional, it carries an unknown price tag. Don't take all the negative sounding comments to be simply negative comments. There's some pretty knowledgeable people out there, trying to make sure you're aware of all the consequences before you get too deep into it. (I'm not one of those; I'm just a pain in the arse, but there are others!) | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Hello Kevin. Sorry for getting into this late... Good for you, and shame on the rest. The first person to try converting an old bus was told he was nuts and a fool. Why are we, now that converting a "standard" bus is "acceptable", slagging a fellow that is heading off into the next frontier? Where is the encouragement? Half you chickens wouldn't be here, if you were the first ones. Followers you are, myself included. Again, I say, shame on you for trying to wreck this fellow's dreams, instead of offering encouragement and assistance. Kevin, I have a fair amount of artic' experience, and am familiar with Flyer's 40 footers of that vintage. Please e-mail me off line and I'll give you whatever I can in the way of help and regulatory advice. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Jim... Sorry to hear your bus had those kinds of problems from the start... That's harsh... Did you get it running already? Do you plan on trying to fix the corrosion and rust? Scenic... I figured as much... I'll have to do some research into that in the next few weeks... among other things. Bob... No, not rude or nosey... If I didn't want anyone to know, I wouldn't have stuck my nose out there to begin with. We currently rent, and are just tired of the same stuff day in, day out... we need a change... this will provide us with the ability to make a change whenever we feel like doing so. Molds are meant to be broken at some point anyway... John... I know, and I understand. And I wasn't saying what I said just to be a jerk. I've run into so many situations where I was told I couldn't do something, just to dig a little deeper and find a way TO do it anyway. I try to approach every situation this way, because if I don't, then I'd give in too easily, and give up on things before giving them a real chance... which would just be a shame.... This bus I have really is what we need... I'll find a way to make it work, one way or another... or I'll at least exhaust my options before giving up. It's all I can do... and I don't give up easily. My message was meant as a challenge... Instead of telling my why I can't do something, try to find a way that I can.... That was all. I am aware of many of the legal problems of this bus... but like anything else, I thing there's a way to overcome the problems and still come out ahead in the long run. As for meeting the requirements of a motorhome... since it'll have all the facilities that make a motorhome, a motorhome... meeting any state's definition of what constitutes a motorhome will be easily accomplished. It'll be a completely self contained vessel, complete with a 12500KW generator. -Kevin | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
BW - I'm beginning to like you - look forward to meeting you - BTW - I'm an admitted chicken - had to buy a 'professional conversion' - but still appreciate 'do it yourselfers' Bob - your on the right track - my three wishes - 1) to be judgement proof (in the true legal sense), 2) pay no property taxes and only the Tenn. $25 year registration fee, 3)finding a "young" lady who is cute enough to be with , but isn't interested in a family (been there, done that) Scenic - thats true - but for what a 'service' costs - its well worth the $$$$ Niles | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Buswarrior... You snuck your post in while I was writing responses to the others. Otherwise I'd have responded to ya in my reply to the others... You are a fellow who follows his heart, as I am. I like that, and it's an admirable trait. I think the others have forgotten what "Busnut" is all about and have gotten used to going with the flow, rather than shaking things up a bit. I can't fault them for that, it's hard to go against the grain and rub the law the other way. But it is us busnuts that got the laws changed to allow for 45ft motorhomes it would seem... So, you bring to light a different aspect of this that I had not thought about! Why NOT make this the next frontier? If enough of us begin converting these things, and requesting the law to be change again... Why shouldn't it happen? The only reason it hasn't yet as far as I can see, is that everyone's ACCEPTED that 45 feet is the max legal... why? Why have the pioneers that began this whole busnut thing given up at 45 feet? Doesn't seem very logical... especially considering a 60 foot artic *IN REALITY* is nothing more than a 30 footer with a permanent trailer... I'd rather drive a 30 footer with a 30 foot trailer than a 40 foot with a 20 foot trailer any day I think... But that may be my inexperience in driving these things talking, I don't know. So... I agree with your sentiments, but I can't say shame on them... they just don't know what else to do, they've been told it can't be done, which is probably why they have 40 and 45 foot conversions instead of 50 and 60 foot conversions. They don't really know where to start any more than I do at this point... But I will. I will do this, and I will be successful. Determination is a hard thing to sway when you have nothing to fall back on... I'm doing this, all or nothing. If I fail, I fail big. Real big. I'll have nothing to go back to and absolutely nothing to make up for it. But... that's what makes me... me. I take risks, sometimes bigger than I should... but it always seems to work out in the end somehow... --- Niles... Did you buy a pro conversion because you were chicken, or was it really because you didn't have the luxury of making mistakes along the way? There's a difference... Given the opportunity, WOULD you convert one yourself? If you can say yes, then you aren't a chicken... You're just pampered. ;) On using the service... since I really won't have a physical permanent address, I may be forced to use this type of service, it depends on how I can obtain the permits and paperwork without a real address. Remember... I'll be living in this thing full time, but won't stay in any one place more than 6 months at a time for the most part... It really depends on what happens in the next couple of years for me, personally, what will happen to my "residency". -Kevin | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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(double post revised to delete text) (oops) | ||
| Don/TX
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Dream it, do it, drive it! I say go for it and good luck. Way to go Kevin. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Life is full of challenges. I guess you're reading the posts through different eyes than I am, since all I see are posts attempting to warn you of the hazards and nuances of various State's requirements. This board is great, since you get input from people across the nation. Each individual can only speak of their own experience. Some problems are very valid and some may be the cause of the individual. And asking too many questions is not always a good thing, when it comes to the bureaucratic government systems. That alone, can lead to answers you would prefer not to hear. In Florida, in my county, and at the registry in my town, I registered our MC9. I told them it was an MCI motorhome shell. They put it into the system as a "motorcoach" and changed the weight to under 20k. It is now registered and titled as such. If it did not conform to the specific weights and dimensions of what is presently legally/legislated to define a "motorcoach" or "motorhome", or "RV", then it would not have been allowed to have been registered as such. Any visitor's vehicle must also conform to the requirements of the state he is driving it into. Sure, you can likely gain a permit in most areas, nothing is impossible. But legal/liability issues should be investigated fully. I can't speak for the others, but as a "friend" that's full-timed for a brief period, I am tossing my comments to you as a "heads up". It's a bit scary to take all your belongings and family, pets, etc, and live in a vehicle, not knowing what you'll run into around the next bend. Not having a home to go back to, adds to the anxiety. When one multiplies the hazards of living on the road; the vehicle as one's sole and only home, with the pitfalls of having a vehicle that will likely not conform to legalities of every state/county it's taken into.... well... Consider the comments of those "nay-sayers" to be helpful warnings, you're going to need as much advance warning you can get. Stay healthy! | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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snip "complete with a 12500KW generator." WOW, thats a BIG mother and equates to twelve million five hundred thousand watts. LOL Richard | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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John... Don't misunderstand me... I take everything I hear with a grain of salt. Typically, when someone says "It can't be done", it usually is because they've been told by someone else it can't be done.... When it comes to vehicles, I know some things can be done, and some things can't... If I have to get special permits to up and move, then that's fine... I'll get the permits. It's really not as big of a hassle to me as it would be to rent a huge U-haul, pack up the house, find a new rental house, unpack, set up and go on... It's just part of the headache that is today's life. This is why I came to this board... I know there have to be people that HAVE done what I'm in the process of doing... And some of you have mentioned that you knew people that have done so... so I wasn't wrong to believe it. I also knew I'd run into stiff "you can't do that" posts, too... it doesn't discourage me in the least... I will find a way to make it work. I simply have to, I have no choice. I'm tired of renting, I'm tired of relying on others for a helping hand during moves, I'm tired of the hassles of living in a house on the ground... I need a change, my family needs a change... and this is it. If it turns out to be a bad decision... then it does. Point is, I'll have tried it, and can say I did, but not just for the sake of saying I did. Some things in life aren't worth the risks... others are... this is one of those things that IS worth it to us. We want a change of pace, a change of lifestyle... and quite honestly, a change in the type of people we associate with. We like to do things for ourselves. We don't like having other people do things for us, makes us feel less useful to ourselves and each other. It'd also be nice to be able to visit family for extended periods of time, without having to rent a hotel room for two or three months at a time... gets expensive. We try not to impose on the people we love and care about... it just raises stress levels and causes problems. "nay sayers" have a useful message, don't think I don't understand or know what it is... but at the same time, those "nay sayers" have typically only looked for the reasons something CAN'T be done... I'm trying to provide an opportunity to show that, some how, some way, it CAN be done.... And I'm just trying to get them to help me find that way. As for answers I prefer not to hear... That's part of life, my friend... We get answers every day we don't like to hear... but I like to think I can get answers changed to something more palletable. In this case, "You can't do it" has now turned into "Well, you can if you pay for a permit to do so"... much better answer, and now I know that there *IS* a way... and if more people do it, then the laws are bound to change if we exert pressure to cause change. That's hour our legal system is SUPPOSED to work... not that it necessarily does, however. --- Richard... oops. typo. was supposed to read 12500W, not KW. Thanks for pointing that out. ;) --- So... to those "nay sayers" that I may have offended, please accept my apologies. Offense was not an intention... Getting you to think a little different was... I really hope to do this somehow... and if I'm successful, AND *SHOW* my success in it... it'll open the door to others doing it... which is EXACTLY what we need if we're going to pilot these kinds of rigs down the road without government/state interference, which is a luxury you folks enjoy with your 45ft and under rigs... Wouldn't it be nice to add another 15 to 20 feet to your rigs? -Kevin | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Well said JTNG (<--Did I say that?) It's not my intent to be a naysaer, but you have a finite amount of energy to work with, I'm not sure it's best spent "Fighting City Hall". Many have considered using a bendy-bus, yours truly included. when I learned of how they are allowed on the road only by special permit, I walked away. (And realized why they were so cheap to buy). I have never heard of one being completed. (If anyone has, I'd like to see it). If you are moving from place to place on rare occaision, it's not really a bus conversion, but a self-propeled mobile home (Which requires a permit to travel). Something constructive? Rent a place with a nice flat, level concrete floor; block it up, cut out the hinge and 15' of overall length. then you will have a 45' shell that is legal in all 50. Do what you want, I'd hate to see a guy spend all the time and resources required to do a conversion (Especially on a transit) only to end up in something that is such a headache to drive that you never take it anywhere. Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Gary... I might end up doing that in the end, the bus itself is in excellent shape and everything works wonderfully. I like the body style, and the fact the front driver's window isn't sunk in... I'd, of course, rather not do that.. but it's an option I've thought about but not really considered. I haven't talked to anyone at the DMV yet... And, in essence... it will basically be a self propelled mobile home... not an RV, per se. So, it'll fit the lifestyle we have in mind just fine... having to get a permit to move is far easier than packing up a house and moving. I will work the floorplan in such a way that if it turns out necessary to cut it, I won't have to do much reconstruction to put it back together. This way, I'll only lose one of the bedrooms. A 45 foot transit with 320HP output would be very nicely suited... What would it cost to have the cut/splice made, out of curiosity, if it comes to that? Any ideas? -Kevin | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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If you're going to stay in one spot for extended periods, then maybe it's OK as-is. Self-propelled house and all. Most busnuts want to travel. Look at Two Dogs, he pulls up stakes just to air things out. (But we all know he's trolling for blondes). as for the pivot removal, you would probably want to keep all the axles. find a point aft of your axles on the front section, and lop the frame off. Find the point just forward of the drivers and make a cut there. Of course, you have to pull back the tinwork too, you'd want to go one panel beyond the frame cut so that when you reassemble, you can panel over the splice without any undesired artifacts from the job. If you don't know how to frame splice, this might not be the place to learn. How much to to have this done my a shop? forget it. Way too much. Of course everything I've said has no value really, I've never even seen the same model bus like yours, you'd need to work with someone that knows what they're looking at. maybe a self-propelled mobile home is the best way to go after all. Gary | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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I just went and looked at the Ebay pics again. Holy crap what a long space to work with. Have you gotten this home yet? Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Gary... No, it's over 1000 miles away from me, across several states. When I go get it, I plan to move too... so temporarily, it'll become my moving van as well! I plan to go get it in the spring, after the thaw. It's in Minnesota... I'm in Louisiana. But yea, my travelling needs will be fairly minimal compared to most of you guys. We will be, for all practical purposes, snowbirds. Move twice a year, maybe go on a real trip once a year just to change scenery and get down to the coast or a nice getaway spot... And yea... this thing is HUGE. It's very long... Basically, I plan for it to have a master bedroom and either two small rooms for the kids, or a master and one room for the kids with double bunks.... It's going to be a fulltime rig, but not on the road fulltime. I'm going to have to rig up a pre-lube system so that I can keep the engine lubed up and runable, without actually starting it and frying the bearings through excessive wear from lack of immediate oil... It'll be a challenge, for sure.... but I'm up for it. As for cutting the frame... I'm not qualified to do such a thing... I've never used a cutting torch or a welder... All I actually have is a small gasless welder I haven't even fired up yet... I just got it in case I needed to fix some lawn equipment or something... and it'll be useful for small metal jobs in the bus too. This will be a great fun project for us... and it'll be a learning experience too. It'll keep us busy with our hands, and keep our minds occupied trying to come up with ways to use all that space wisely and effectively, without wasting it because we actually HAVE it. -Kevin | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Kevin - Intersting find, and an interesting challenge! Artics - wiggle worms - bendy buses - whatever you want to call them, are certainly a unique niche w/in the industry! Might want to look into "domiciling" in SD - lot's of full-timers are doing so. Check some of the RV forums for more info, as well as the archives on this site. Just looked at the CA DMV's Vehicle Code book. Articulated coaches are mentioned only twice - once in the driver's license section, and once in the maximum vehicle length section. Nothing there of any note different than what you already know, other than CA allows bike racks on the front. . . One comment I'd like to share with you is one made to me by a fellow transit trainer. Their fleet had artics with both mid-ship engines and pusher models. He noted that the shop had to pay very close attention to the artic joint's condition on the pushers, moreso than the mid-ships, due to jack-knifing concerns. I don't know exactly what's different between the two model's configuration of the joint, but there must be something relating to controlling joint movement. Worth exploring, and perhaps Buswarrior can elaborate? When driving your new toy home, be aware that the rear end pivots on the middle axle, and on tight corners, you'll lose sight of the trailer in your exterior mirrors. You can still see it, however, by adjusting the inside mirror to view the trailer out the windows! (Something to consider when you start the conversion, too!!) Artics have warning lights on the dash that come on whenever you are turning in such a manner that exceeds the capability of the artic joint. If you can avoid having the lights come on, you'll do fine, and the joint will thank you! HTH! RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Hello Kevin. The joint must be treated with a lot of respect. In a pusher, like your Flyer, the forces on the joint are more complex than in the Ikarus/Crown/Orion mid-engined models. In a puller, the joint is simply a trailer, with the conventional forces the automitive world is used to. Your joint has to withstand extensive compression forces. What wear might be there that requires some heavy overhaul? There are also flexible coolant lines that cross the gap. These will need to be checked, and perhaps isolation valves installed, if there aren't any, to stop the loss of coolant when one fails. Also, power steering lines cross the gap. You need to pay close attention to corrosion, and Flyer was famous for rotting out from the inside in those years. If it has been south, it will be better, but rarely good. You will break your bus into two pieces, if you back it up and jack knife it. You must not rely on the warning system for the hinge, unless you have confirmed that it is adjusted correctly. No one makes complex adjustments to old buses that are going to be sold... it can't be trusted now. The trouble is that the bodies make contact and then pry the joint apart or break it at the frame somewhere. If you misjudge a corner, and are nose to pole, (and you will be...) In all the excitement, how are you going to get it backed off and re-directed without snapping the bus in half? You just need more room than a one piece bus. You are already in full turn, with little room left at the hinge. As you reverse, you can't get the front moved over far enough in relation to the pole, that the front half and back half of the bus don't reach a critical angle. You have to back up directly back on where you came from for a bit of room, before you close the angle to get the nose re-aimed to miss the pole. If you misjudged badly, you almost have to completely back up around the corner and start again. You need someone to come with you who can be calm and help guide you out, when you go drive this beast for the first time. RJ, we need to get that mobile training service started up! If I was retired.... Kevin, I know a retired trainer who might be pursuaded to take a vacation in that direction if someone gives he and his wife a reason to head that way. Also, you want to start practicing backing up a short trailer. Preferably, one which is short behind the tow vehicle. You want one that reacts quick to steering errors. A longer trailer won't help you learn what you need for that artic. Guys with little box trailer experience can outperform tractor trailer drivers the first time backing one of these artics. Reversing a tractor trailer is too forgiving of careless steering or attention deficit. Find out where that bus operated. One of the best places to get rid of the seats is take 'em home to mother. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Buswarrior: I think it may help tight maneuvering if he doesn't think of this as a BUS, but as something like pulling a tagalong trailer with a single-axle truck. Having seen where the MBTA can bring an articulated bus, they're plenty nimble. They won't go everywhere the RTS II's can, but they're not that bad. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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BusWarrior... I know about the joint being a tender thing. Treat it like a lady, so they say. Brittle as a glass and hard to work with but a dream to drive. Or so they say. I plan to do a very thorough lookover before I move it. I'm aware of the lines and stuff that run through the joint, and will look at all those before moving as well. I will do some practicing somewhere before I really get it into traffic so that I get a feel for its limitations and capabilities. It's currently parked at a farm the guys father owns. I'll drive it around in the grass a bit and figure things out. I'm already trying to think of this thing as something other than a bus, it just doesn't really fit my vision of a bus, and it's much more than a regular bus in my opinion... but I am just a newbe to this. My first choice before this bus was, in fact, an RTS II. I just couldn't get my hands on one before I found this one... I think I'll actually fare better with this than I would have with the RTS. An older GMC 4104 or 4105 was my next choice, but couldn't find one of those in decent shape either... Oh well. Maybe next time. -Kevin | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Kevin - I guess i'm pampered - I bought my conversion because 1) I'm lazy 2) I enjoy the traveling - not the building 3) There were few of the type coach I wanted available on the market 4) At the price I paid for my coach I doubt I could have bought the shell, bought the components and paid for the outside work I was not qualified to do .......... and I get to use it now! Niles | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Niles....... As I continue the task (now at about 8 hours worth across three evenings) of removing the toilet in my MC9, your option makes more and more sense. I spent time and effort looking, but could not find what I wanted. Now......... hopefully... eventually... I'll manage to do something with this bus. Or.... Maybe sell it and do what you did.... | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Definitely all pluses, Niles. I wish I had the money to buy one to my specifications... But I don't... And I don't have enough time to save up, and I'm too impatient to save for it. So... I'm going the long, hard way and will have fun too. (And I was trying to be funny, not insulting... Hope ya know that. ) But don't think for a second I'm not lazy... ;) Maybe someday we'll meet at a busmeet somewhere... All of you, for that matter. It sure would be nice to meet other enthusiasts. -Kevin | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
John - there are a few benefits of doing it 'your way' that I will never experience - like every time you have a problem w/ your rig , you will know where to look and what to do , cause you built it - I have to call someone and try to describe the problem (loosing some 'friends' this way) or tote her down to a shop - I also will never benefit from the pride you will feel when someone says "nice work" , cause I didn't do any of it - and working on it keeps you out of trouble I bet - Kevin - no offense taken - I have managed in my first 47 years of life to maintain a reasonably good sense of humor - good luck! - save some of your enthusiasm for when the going gets rough , and use this board cause mainly these are the guys(and gals) who have been there and done that and know the desolate feeling I can only describe as "uh oh" - As an aside I have operated overdimensional transport in Florida on and off for 25 years - to pull a permit all you need is a phone , a fax, and a credit card - you never have to leave home - also some states like Fla have year long 'blanket' permits you can purchase - so theres no hassle running localy except you have to be careful to run the proper routes - I can just see myself logging on this site many years from now answering a post to the effect .......... has any one ever converted an H5-60 ........ and I'll have to answer ........ there once was this guy named Kevin who ......... Niles | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
With 40' buses a dime a dozen; parts, labor and willing shops to service them in every locality..... and with 20-30' trailers easy to buy and tow with a 40' bus.... I would make a list of the "pro" and "cons" of continuing to move ahead with a 60' albatross. Living full-time takes a toll out of you and your family to begin with. Adding the stress of trying to live full time in a 60' articulated unorthodox vehicle that will not allow for navigation or parking in any conventional area, is just asking for trouble. Sure Kevin, we all wish you the best of luck, and absolutely nothing in life is beyond one's grasp, if they want it bad enough... But at what price? Posters to this forum wouldn't be "friends" if they didn't give their blunt and honest opinions. If you haven't lived in an RV full-time, ask those that have; If you haven't tried to find a place for the night in the middle of a blinding rainstorm, in the dark of the night, off the main detoured route, on some dirt road..... Or followed signs to your place for the night, to find that it's not where they said it was... Or they're deep in the woods..... Ask anyone that's full-timed what perils await the unsuspecting camper. The list is endless. If this were just a "vacation" RV, I'd understand your annoyance with those that try to discourage you from a "dream". But knowing that you will be attempting to live life in this vehicle and travel with it...? Anything short of a discouraging remark would be "just being kind". I really think you need more than that right now... But..... I've said all I'm gonna' say. Hate me if you must; I do wish you luck.......... but I do wish you'd reconsider. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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He's not using it as you and I would. We want to twist the key, pull in the shore connections and rock and roll. He's building a self-propelled Mobile home (which is kinda cool). He's never going to be looking for a place to park in a blinding rainstorm. Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
John... I would never hate someone for giving their opinion... That would be not only foolish of me, but self centered and egotistical. I'd also have to think I'm better than the person giving the opinion... and I know for a fact I'm no better than anyone else... I don't like snobs, and I simply don't ever intend on becoming one myself. Believe me, I understand what everyone is trying to say... and I do take them into consideration... Which is why I posted in the first place, but... the fact is, the bus is mine now... It's step one of a multistage plan. I'm set on the 60 footer because it meets my space needs. Travelling may be a hassle, it may be nearly impossible to do things as a normal RVer would... but as Gary said, my situation and use won't be the same as most folks who do this. It will be a home that stays in one place most of the time and move maybe 4 times a year total... One of those being a vacation movement, two being actual movement across the country and one being an "unplanned event". Having a 40ft or 45ft rig will be too limiting internally with two kids. Granted... once we find a place that we'd like to actually settle down in, the rig will become a vacation/travel rig, but even then... having to get permits to move it around is ok with me. I'll do it, and be happy doing it. As for finding a place to stay in a blinding snow/rainstorm... I don't even travel for my job in the rain... and I do keep an eye on the weather forcasts when I am planning to go somewhere. The people around here are too nuts to drive side by side with when the ground is wet... I don't blame anyone for giving me a discouraging remark, but I take it to heart because it's the general attitude that the 60ft rigs are just bad news. They really are a big risk in more ways than one, but the benefits to them *for me* outweigh the negatives that everyone has thusfar mentioned. My question is, what do I need to look out for during the conversion itself that would be problematic for me? What might be in my way, what can I do about it? How do I handle plumbing and electrical between the two halves through the pivot? What kind of umbillical connection will I need to make, what kind of wiring will I need to get my hands on for it? Where should I route it and how do I avoid problems in that routing? Stuff like that... -Kevin | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
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__. Mine is 66 ft. long -- it's just that it's two 33 feet long sections one on top of the other. Lots of room is a good thing. Bruce Henderson, North Carolina USA (1976 Daimler Fleetline double-decker bus) | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Bruce - if he jacknifes it just right he can have a 30 footer - but they'd be side by side - he'd have to end over end roll it to get a coach like yours - LOL - Niles | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Yeah, but he'd have the world's first bus with a sidecar. Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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But then, I'd have to use the reverse gear to go anywhere, otherwise I'd be forever backing up! -Kevin | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
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"Bruce - if he jacknifes it just right he can have a 30 footer - but they'd be side by side - he'd have to end over end roll it to get a coach like yours - LOL - Niles" __. Yeah, but that would do away with the stairs tho! But I kinda like the stairs ... I can ask my lady friends "wanna go upstairs and join the 'upper decker' club"? :^) B, NC, USA | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Bruce - Or you could go under a low bridge and make it a sun deck ;-) Niles | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jeeez... Bruce... "The 14' club".. Not quite a mile high, but ya' don't have half a foot, either? HAR HAR.. (skuze me) Kevin.. PEX tubing will bend just fine. If you turn that bus so tight that it would break the tubing, you're going to be fixing more than water pipes, anyway. And PVC pipe for your drains can be fitted with rubber boots between the halves to allow for flexing. A truck inner tube should hold well. I wouldn't go concealing it, however. Anything that can break and leak would be best kept outdoors and visible. It'd probably be easier (and better) to simply have two systems, at least for the wastewater. It would seem to me, that converting that type bus is not much different than converting any other type. The only problems I would anticipate, are the ones discussed regarding permits, licensing, insuring, etc.. I mentioned your project to a friend down here (part-time state cop), and he wondered if you'd need a lead and/or chase car for the oversized vehicle; some areas require one. He said some towns also require the assignment of an officer to lead the vehicle.. It's all about $$$... Just more food for thought. | ||
| Mike (Busone)
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You could use that flexible PVC hose. You can buy it at any pool/spa supply house. You glue it with regular PVC solvent primer and cement. They even make some clear PVC tubing that is renforced with nylon. Though you might not want clear tubing for your sewer lines. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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All very good ideas... And to answer you John, I do intend to have separate grey/black systems for the front and rear, but have a mac pump on each with the forced drain hose leading to the rear tank dump, so that although the systems will be separate, the dump ports will be at one location. I also plan to use the automatic valves so that this can be done without much muss, fuss and mess. Clear water, however, is a different story. I do plan to have just one system for that, but the bath/shower will have its own tankless water heater, and the rest of the bus will have another tankless. I really don't want to use a tanked water heater... they seem more hassle than they're worth, and not enough water for us. The tankless variety can be had in many sizes. Since I *DO* plan to be in a northern climate, how can I protect everything from freezing? I've been in the south for so long, that I haven't had to worry about that for quite a number of years. How do you all keep your tanks, lines, hoses, etc from freezing up when it's 20 below out? Heat strips? But then, how does that work if you're not plugged up or have the gen running? As for flag cars... I think those are pretty much required only for loads over width, not length... I've seen LOTS of trucks running around here in Louisiana and Texas that are over length, marked as oversized, but no flaggers... but everything I see that's wider than the lane has a front and rear flagger... Just an observation. I'm really wondering if I'll even need permits once the thing is titled / insured as a motorhome... I'm not sure why I think that, I'm probably completely wrong... but I just have a feeling it'll make a difference in how it's treated once it's livable. Just have to wait and see, I guess. I'll get it figured out... no worries! I've worried enough in life to last me the rest of it... One thing at a time from now on... yup. ----- Mike... I've seen the hosing you speak of... in fact, we have some of it on our pool out back.... Excellent suggestion. Thanks! -Kevin | ||
| Steward Berkley Rating: N/A |
Hey Kevin, I'm the proud owner of two artics....Crown Ikarus (mid engine) and a Mann (mid emgine). I also had RV plans for the Crown-I......then the Mann came along.....then fuel prices sky rocketed. I was told by two transit companies (Champaign/Urbana and Spokane) to expect 3-5mpg so now they are parked on our mountain property in northern Idaho. The first thing I did was to contact states I would be traveling through to find out if I would be legal.....the responses were varied from overlength permits to nothing at all. It turns out that the states that use artics in their transit systems say that all buses must not be longer than 40-45' except artics which cannot exceed 60'.....those states realize that the turning radius of an artic is better than a 40' bus......so my advice would be to contact the states you will be traveling in ahead of your trip....get legal....save $ for fuel ( or learn to make biodiesel, you might have room for processing on the road)......" A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving"......enjoy and keep us posted | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
We moved from the northeast. When temperatures go below 20, there's little you'll be able to do to keep anything that's not kept continually at above 60 degrees from freezing. Sure, a heat strip on a pipe will delay the freeze, but you'll have to wrap every inch of the pipe, including fittings. And plastic pipe doesn't allow for the transmission of heat too well. Keep in mind, that the waste system will freeze as easily. Once a tank is frozen, there's not much you can do, but get it into a 60' heated garage. You'll need heated fresh and waste tanks, and heated piping. All valves will have to be heated/kept warm. A close friend of ours is building a house in Massachusetts. They've lived for the past several years in a 38' travel trailer next to the house site. Each winter they've had a total freeze of their systems that's required at least one solid day of running two fuel oil space heaters under the trailer. The trailer is totally wrapped in layers of insulation, by the way. By the time the thing is unfrozen, the entire place is uninhabitable due to the fumes. It takes awhile to air out. Prior to selling our home and going full-time, we lived in the RV - in our driveway, just to see if we could do it. We did two stints of that... The first lasted 6 months, until winter set in and everything froze solid. The next year, we lasted 9 months, until January.. when there was no way I could keep everything (including things in the back of the cupboard), from freezing. I guess when we've had to thaw pipes in the house for years, it was silly to expect less from any RV.... Home brew, or commercial. I would strongly suggest that anyone considering full-timing, try it out in their driveway for a year before they hit the road. Once out there, there's no looking back; no garage to repair things in, yourself; no place to park it while you make any repairs; no comfort of home for any member of your family to recuperate from a serious illness. But you will have all the stress of not being where you're most familiar with... and where your family feels safest at. Re: "A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving"......enjoy and keep us posted" Incredibly profound. | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Steward... The bus I purchased apparently gets 8 to 10 mpg as it sits now, fully loaded with passengers... What *I* will get is entirely unknown. Since it won't be used as a travel rig (for the most part), I'm not as concerned with fuel prices as most people are. It's just not a significant factor for me at this point due to my intended usage. How much did you pay for your artics? I'm just curious... By the way, from what I can find in specifications and such, the Flyer I bought has a 45 foot turning radius. I don't know how that compares to other buses though. ---- John.... You have to realize that our family has moved around for years, with no "home". It's always a different place every few years... At least this way, we'll have something familiar, wherever we go. And we'll have the knowledge that no one can kick us out of our own home, or sell it out from under us because they're tired of having to deal with renters. At least this way, we can rent a pad in an RV park somewhere (that's capable of handling the length) and just go with it... When it's time to pack up and go again, all we'll have to do is clean up, stow things, turn the key and drive off to the next adventure. As for the pipes freezing and such... that's why I said early on that we'll be "snowbirds"... stay in the warmer areas throughout the year. Since I'm used to short jobs (contract labor you know), it's not really a problem there either. The job I have now is the longest I've held one down for 15 years. My typical job lasts 6 months to a year. I've had this one since '99, and the contract is coming to an end either at the end of December, or the end of March. So, time to move on again. As for trying it out in my driveway... well, that's not really an option. We're used to living in a much smaller space than the bus will offer us to begin with, so it'll be an expansion for us! Hopefully by now everyone can see and has realized that I've put a lot of thought into moving into a bus, and hopefully my reasoning is sound enough to be convincing. No matter what happens, things can't get much WORSE for me than they already are. Sure they can... but it's not far from the little mole hill I'm currently standing on! Trust me. -Kevin | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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Kevin; The only person you need to convince of your reasoning is *you*. From here on in, you just have to take care of your choice, problems or not. By the way, 45' Prevost H3-45 is about 44' radius, 45' Prevost LeMirage XLII (2004 model) has 40.something' radius... | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Oh, I don't need convincing. I already bought it, I was convinced long ago... but I know in order for me to get much help in the way of answers, it helps to explain to others why I'm doing what I'm doing. This way, the people I'm asking for help from have a better idea of what my intentions are, and can be in a better position to give an opinion better suited to my situation. Hopefully that makes sense, I'm writing this while on a conference call with work. heh. But... It sounds to me like my turning radius is pretty much in line with most other buses out there, so I'm happy about that. I was hoping that was going to be the case, but wasn't sure. -Kevin | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
RVing in cold CAN be done. It just takes thought. For the road, semi-truck fuel tank heaters can help keep water tanks liquid. I'm putting mine inside the bus (long-nose school bus), which is a big help. If you're a power-pole camper (and with a 60' rig, I'm guessing so), think heat tape, insulation, good airflow...and a few gallons of pink RV antifreeze. Possibly run the plumbing inside the vehicle? | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Looking at this thread brings a question to mind - What is the longest thread ever on this board ? - inquiring minds want to know - Niles | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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110 I believe, I have to find it. | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Lets set a record ;-) | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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It got Deleted, I think. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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It was the hanging tank thread. Deleted? Bronzed and put on display more like. Gary | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
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Where at? I can't find it. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Prolly printed and hanging from I@n's bay ceiling.. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Huh, I guess you're right, it's gone. Gary | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
There's a 101-post thread a couple pages down. IIRC, it's "How old is everyone" or something similar. (I plead the fifth.) | ||
| Syd Pygott (Sydstoy)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin, I just got back from a month in Hawai'i so I'm late to this thread. I have driven artic's for 25 years and they are really easy to drive forward as long as you know where you are going. You will have trouble backing up untill you get used to it. If you turn wrong the brakes will lock up then you will learn new words that can't be used in front of children. Also do not try to drive on ice or snow. About the engine in the back, have you ever tried to push a string straight. Syd | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Syd, I've already been told about the "safety" mechanisms on this bus causing things to happen that normally wouldn't be expected. I'm ready for them! Pushing a STRING in a straight line? Rather more difficult than pushing a couple of train cars without tracks, don't ya think? ;) But seriously, I've thought about that and how it would most likely react on a slick surface... Needless to say, the weather channel will be my best friend when I move it! What has your experience been with the reliability of the buses themselves? This one seems to be very well built... but I've honestly never even been on one, much less seen one in person. The only thing I've seen anything close to this would be the move "The Big Bus" back in the 80's... I always got a kick out of that movie and wanted a bus just like that... My "new2me" bus might not be JUST like it... but it's as close as I can get in real life! :D -Kevin | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I've found a couple messages from people that have registered their 60 footers as motorhomes... But... and here's the key... it seems to only be allowed in states which use the buses for their own metro systems. California, for instance, has no tolerance for them whatsoever, but Illinios does. I'll find out for sure when I move.... I've decided I'm moving back to Minnesota instead of Oklahoma. The friends we have in OK have had several near misses with tornadoes this year... it's just not a risk I want to take living fulltime in a bus! Even if it IS 60 feet! It also appears I'm going to be moving earlier than I would like to. Probably in mid-February, maybe the first of March or so. I could be in a bit of financial hurt if I don't get job right away. I've been in worse pickels though, I'll manage. As for how I feel about the bus... I'm still quite excited to get there and get to work on it. Even if the only thing I'll be able to do first off is to just remove the seats and move my "junk" in. Tools, conversion supplies, etc... I'll have to wait until after I get a job again to really begin the conversion, which will kindof kill the mood if it doesn't happen right away... but I've got a lead I'm pursuing, so.... hopefully... with any luck... I'll get a call saying "When can you start?" by January. Oh, incidentally... I visited Easter's Bus Sales (www.easterbussales.com) on the web, and lo-and-behold... what do I find for sale? Have a look... http://www.easterbussales.com/buses3.htm Very top. 60 foot Mann Articulated buses. I called and asked about them, just for the heck of it... they had 5 of them when I called last week. They want $5400 each. I asked if they were legal to put on the road as motorhome conversions, and without hesitation he simply stated that they'd sold several of them to buyers with the intent of converting them for motorhome use. At least I know I didn't pay too much for my bus now. The purchase price was $5400 for mine, plus $600 for storage for 6 months (or longer, if needed). Since the guy I bought my bus from was willing to finance it for me, I didn't feel bad about the storage price. I'll have it completely paid off next week. Chalk one more message up to this thread to bring it closer to the "Board Record", heh! -Kevin | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Kevin - Might consider "domiciling" in SD. Lots of full-timers do. Not sure how they handle an artic, but it might be worth looking into. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
You will not be able to license your 60fter in MN or even drive it unless they have changed the law in the last 5 years or so. The metro uses them, but they run on permanent permits and only allowed on certain routes. The MTC would have given me three if I would come pick them up. Keep in mind Easter bus did not answer your question. Saying others plan on converting does not address the question of usablity or legality. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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IL has a max OAL of 60' total. CA uses artics all over the place, where do you think Gilligs are made? I think your still stuck with trip permits there Kevin. Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
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Yes, I know that Easter's didn't answer the question, but it was still encouraging to hear that others are taking the leap into the vast darkness below as well, and that I'm not the only one! And, if I can move to IL and register/drive/use it NORMALLY like any other RV, then I'll move there if MN won't let me... but I'll give it a try before I start packing up to move again. Even if I can move to Canada and use it, that's what I'll do. I know I have lots of family up there, I just don't know who they are! heh. As for SD... I've always wanted to go see the Black Hills. I've heard it's an absolutely spectacular place to see. Montana is a nice place too, albeit, quite unpopulated compared to the rest of the states.... which honestly suits me just fine too! If I have to start trying to get traffic laws changed to do this... then I'll give that a shot too. I'm not one to hear "you can't do that" then just accept it. I'll kick, scream and bite until I either CAN do it, or just get knocked flat on my back with the wind kicked out of me. I'm very bull headed... and quite stubborn. ;) -Kevin | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Gary - Gillig doesn't build artics. . . Kevin - Another advantage to SD - no personal state income tax. . . Are we having fun yet?? RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert)
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Sorry to send you this but You need to see it! looks like you will have to find anouther state to move too! Good luck Minnesota Statutes 2004, Table of Chapters Table of contents for Chapter 169 169.81 Height and length limitations. Subdivision 1. Height. (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), no vehicle unladen or with load shall exceed a height of 13 feet six inches. (b) A double-deck bus may not exceed a height of 14 feet three inches. Any carrier operating a double-deck bus exceeding 13 feet six inches shall obtain from the commissioner, with respect to highways under the commissioner's jurisdiction, and from local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, an annual permit to operate the bus upon any highway under the jurisdiction of the party granting the permit. Annual permits shall be issued in accordance with applicable provisions of section 169.86. The fee for an annual permit issued by the commissioner is as provided in section 169.86, subdivision 5. Subd. 2. Length of single vehicle; exceptions. (a) Statewide, no single vehicle may exceed 40 feet in overall length, including load and front and rear bumpers, except: (1) mobile cranes, which may not exceed 48 feet in overall length; (2) buses, which may not exceed 45 feet in overall length; and (3) type A, B, or C motor homes as defined in section 168.011, subdivision 25, paragraph (c), which may not exceed 45 feet in overall length. | ||
| Ethan Tuttle (Mrert)
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looks like illinoise will work for you! Check this out! http://www.dot.state.il.us/road/bt753.pdf | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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"Gary - Gillig doesn't build artics. . ." Seriously? I swear I saw gillig on the back of some of the ACTransit Artics. I'd say I'm losing my mind, but its been gone for a long time. Gary | ||
| Kevin Allen, Nebus (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Ethan, thank you for finding that. The stuff I had found suggested that IL was a state tolerant of my type of rig, but I hadn't had time to do any real research yet on it. Additionally, I had already found the MN statutes, and have downloaded a copy of them to my system. However, for the time being, this is still fine, as I really don't want to move it far before converting it. I'll stay in MN and find out what it takes to make a change to the law. Perhaps, if enough of us band together and start lobbying state governments, even the federal government, we can make these buses a reality nationwide. Realisticly, there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed. They allow 40 foot motorhomes to pull 20 foot travel trailers in many places... which is essentially what the 60 footers are, but with a walkway between them! I think it can be done... and I think it SHOULD be done. And, RJ... "Tax" is a subject I'd rather not get into in this forum. ;) Many do not like my personal views, or actions regarding it... I'll just leave it at that. But, it's nice to know about. G'day! -Kevin | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Gary - Was "Gillig" on the license plate frame? AC Transit's Division 6 garage in Hayward is only six blocks from the Gillig plant, and AC buys a LOT of Gilligs. . . not to mention parts for same. . . Kevin - Understand the tax subject, isn't it everybody's "favorite", after politics, money, sex and religion?? (J/K!!!! ) I was just pointing out that SD's one of the few states that has no personal state income tax, like FL and NV, which is another reason it's popular with full-timers. . . Back to the bookkeeping. . . RJ |
