| Author | Message | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Two Dogs brought up something in another thread that piqued my curiosity: It's not so here in CA, but it's my understanding that in some states, it's required by law to operate your flashers when on the Interstate and moving slower than the legal minimum, such as pulling a long grade. Curious to know what states require this. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
requirements are different in different states...not getting hit in the ass is MY requirement...even pulling out from a rest area,left turn signal till I get out there & flashers till I reach speed of traffic...all the time I was driveing big trucks ...I told EVERY boss I ever worked for..."IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY LIGHTS....OR SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY STEER TIRES....THE TRUCK IS PULLED OVER & WILL NOT GO ANYWHERE TILL FIXED"...know you guys think I'm some kind of hard ass...I'm still around &...lots of people have gone to meet Elvis | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
RJ, Id just do what you see the Big trucks doing. Do you plan on going that slow? I would If I was driving slow not going up hill becouse of somthing wrong and cant get up to speed. I would also use them when comming up to some traffic that suddenly slows down or stops on the Hwy to try to warn others comming up behind me at 70 mph not looking more then 2 feet in front of there car. I have driven in every state But only remember 1 or 2 that had signs saying to use flashers but dont remeber what ones. I just dont think its a big deal . Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Florida Statute 316.235(5) - A bus may be equipped with a deceleration lighting system which cautions following vehicles that the bus is slowing,preparing to stop,or is stopped. Such lighting system shall consist of amber lights mounted in a horizontal alignment on the rear of the vehicle at or near the vetical centerline of the vehicle, not higher tha n the lower edge of the window or, if the vehicle has no rear window, not higher than 72 inches from the ground. Such lights shall be visible from a distance of not less than 300 feet to the rear in normal sunlight. Lights are permitted to light and flash during deceleration, braking, or standing and idling of the bus. VEHICULAR HAZARD WARNING FLASHERS MAY BE USED IN CONJUNTION WITH OR IN LIEU OF A REAR-MOUNTED DECELERATION LIGHTING SYSTEM. I believe your flashers (at least in fla) will suffice just fine. Niles | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
OK, let me rephrase my thread question: In what states is it required by law to operate the 4-way flashers when moving slower than the minimum posted speed limit, such as when pulling a long grade? That's all I'm asking, guys. Not what's common practice, not what you yourself do in certain situations, not how fast/slow I plan on driving, OK? Just the simple question. . . Thanks, RJ | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
I understand you question R.J. but I don't understand your reasoning...if you are not going to do it unless the law says you HAVE to...then...tell us what you want done with your remains  | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
The reason is just to add some additional trivia to the memory bank. . . In case you've forgotten, TD, I spent 25 years in the bus industry, I KNOW when to use flashers, just like you do, 10-4? | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
30-12 | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
RJ - the operation of your vehicle below the posted minimum is itself an infraction of any Motor Vehicle Code - The MVC would not proscribe the correct way of operating your vehicle under conditions that are already illegal - I assumed you were asking the question related to legal operation - as described above and below - Florida Statute 316.155 (3) - No person may stop or suddenly decrease the speed of a vehicle w/o first giving an appropriate signal ........ when there is an opportunity to give such a signal. for "appropriate" signal - see above post - my summary is that simply moving at a speed slower than traffic or the posted speed limit (as long as it is above the posted minimum) does not require any signal - if you operate below the posted speed , I would assume you would be ticketed for that, and I don't think it would be legal for an officer to ticket you for improperly operating your vehicle illegally - Niles | ||
| pete hyser (4501pete)
Rating: N/A |
lol RJ, PA is one....i dont think i saw one answer to your question.. pete | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
I don't think its answerable - Niles | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
I saw signs requiring flashers on some grades if below 40 MPH on the Interstate in West Virginia and have seen them in New York. May not be universal law in those states, but I have seen it posted on some grades. It is hard to operate a bus at 40 MPH or above on a steep grade without grossly exceeding the speed limit on the previous downgrade. I have a turbocharged aftercooled engine and I find some grades that slow me to 35 MPH. Rare, but they exist. It is not illegal to go less than 40MPH in that circumstance, but even if not required, the trucks seem to use flashers. | ||
| Jim MC9OH Rating: N/A |
PA Turnpike is at 45MPH. I drive for a large LTL trucking company,so my rule is if I'm doing under 20mph I've got them on.Same with my MC-9 with a 8V71. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Niles- As far as I understand, Florida Statute 316.155 pertains to turn signal usage only, in the context you have read. Section 316.235 deals with commercial bus (public sector transit systems) Florida Statute 316.155 http://www.dot.state.fl.us/ctd/a%20Web%20Page%20layout/4%20Laws%20and%20Legislation/2004/P DF/14-90.pdf Legislation prescribed for commercial use does not encompass the private sector. I personally do not want the gubberment to further encroach on my personal space. Not to go too far off-topic (and hijack RJ's thread), but in my opinion using a signal that will alert the motorists behind you that you're using your Jake Brake, is not being well thought out. Your Jake might be holding you back for a few miles while descending a long grade. Exactly what is it, that you're trying to alert the guy following, of? After a few minutes, he's going to be ignoring that flashing light and looking to see if he can get around the flashing nuisance and possibly ignoring the fact that you've hit your brakes and in process of a complete and prompt stop. I always used the 4-way if and when approaching stopped traffic. The alert is effective as well, when approaching a toll plaza. If travelling under the posted limit, I would use 4-ways. But to use 4-ways while simply descending a grade? ================================ Florida permits, but does not require, use of emergency flashers to alert motorists of an impending hazardous condition. (There aren't many hills down here) KY 189.950 Prohibitions: http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/189-00/950.PDF 3) No motor vehicle, except those designated under KRS 189.910 to 189.950 as public safety vehicles, shall be equipped with, nor shall any person use upon any vehicle any yellow flashing, revolving, or oscillating light. This subsection shall not apply to the use of yellow lights for turn signals; or to emergency flasher lights for use when warning the operators of other vehicles of the presence of a vehicular traffic requiring the exercise of unusual care in approaching, overtaking, or passing; or to vehicles operated by mail carriers while on duty; funeral escort vehicles and church buses (simply going down grade?) NC Dot: http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/driver_services/drivershandbook/download/NCDL_English.pdf (Specifies that emergency flashers are to be used when stopped) NY State § 375 (41). Colored and flashing lights http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/emer-vt.htm#sec375 The provisions of this subdivision shall govern the affixing and display of lights on vehicles, other than those lights required by law. (for emergency vehicles; excludes private, non-emergency) (Although most states will accept the lights that are mounted that are legal in the state of registration, the use of those lights may be severely restricted; fines may be levied for improper use) | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello RJ. Hey you guys! RJ is a student of the highway law, and was interested in what your statutes might have to say, not what you might have to say. Those of us on this great board who know what we're doing use our flashers when we are hazards! (I'm wondering if I'm approaching the age I might have to leave mine on all the time...) In Ontario, the Ministry of Transportation has kindly put up signs at the side of longer grades indicating that flasher use for slower moving vehicles would be right and proper. However, IIRC, the Highway Traffic Act does not make their use a requirement. The Act does provide direction to stay to the right when not keeping up. The lack of appropriate warning to other motorists for slower than expected travel will be more than taken care of in the civil courts, if one was irresponsible enough to not give warning to other motorists, in this day and age, and with the available equipment (lights and flashers). I expect that the US courts would hold similiar views, if someone came to harm, a statute in place or not. Duty of care to others and all that. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello JTNG. If one is taking a jakeless bus down a long grade, the speed will be a fair bit less than the automobile traffic pounding down from behind. In order to protect expensive brake parts, and even more expensive personal posteriers, it is not uncommon to descend grades at 15 and 20 mph below the posted car speed, and as we know, the cars are often going faster than the posted speed. Closing speed is getting pretty high. There won't be anyone but another large jakeless vehicle following you, the rest are passing at speed. Here's the problem that the others are trying to address: The car driver will be mightily surprised to find the back side of the bus looming large in the windscreen, and also be mightily surprised that their car won't slow down like they expect... A bit of warning when driving at lower speeds is not a bad thing! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Jtng - F.S. 316.235 is contained in Title XXIII of the Florida Statutes - Motor Vehicles , State Uniform Traffic Control - and contains codes for all vehicles - unless otherwise stated the code is for all vehicles meeting the definition unless specifically excluded - I left out the part which says " as defined in s. 316.003(3)" - and that is defined as; Bus- Any motor vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons.......... You are, however, right about the frequency of mountains in Fla - Do you think thats why this particular subject is not addressed in the MVC ? LOL - Niles | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
I know what assuming leads to, but I assume that it is an ICC regulation, since they refer to them as ICC warning lights. If that is the case, any ICC commercially registered unit on the National Highway System would be bound by the reg. Now, that may or may not apply to private buses, I don't know. So, in the absence of a clear showing here, I'll follow the reasoning of TD's and cover my ass. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
buswarrior- This thread has morphed three times.. Far, far off-topic... Presently: The issue isn't the 4-way use alone, it involves the idea that the Jake Brake should trip an added warning/flashing light at the rear of the bus. Although the idea sounds great at first glance, the fact is overlooked, that the Jake Brake will be functioning on down grades when the vehicle speed is not under the posted limit, and/or not necessarily under the average speed of other motorists.... The automatic functioning of the added light, would then be considered a nuisance and a distraction to the vehicle's warning lights that do matter. The statutes and legislation that regulates the use of "emergency flashers" does not include non-regulated, privately added warning lights used for purposes other than what is covered for "emergency flashers". The laws for commercial vehicles and private, being different, further complicate the issue, but both commercial and private drivers have been cited for lights that did not conform to the regulations of the state they were driving through (and/or the federal regulations that apply to all vehicles). Colored lights (as well as clear), as well as their brightness, are always subject to legislation. (ps: we're -all- "students of law") | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
BW - looking forward to meeting you soon at B'2005 - I understood that RJ was looking for specific statutes - that is why when possible I quote them, chapter and verse - Florida Statutes are found at www.flsenate.gov/statutes - and can be read by anyone, but be careful the lawyers who craft laws down here often use tricky and vague language - Although it is not the practice of Law enforcement officers to ticket buses traveling grades (and we do have a few of those) at less than the posted speed when ascending or descending such grades, it nevertheless is illegal - There is no fine print excluding certain vehicles depending on their ability to maintain the minimum speed in certain conditions - As mentioned above, others have noted seeing signs providing allowances for vehicles traveling below the posted minimum for certain stretches of roadway - Most MV Codes require operators to honor roadside regulatory signs, as they are superior instructions to that of the code - Not saying your common sense approach isn't the one I would use - Me, I got no problem with it, I never travel below the minimum posted speed - LOL Niles (totally legal) | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Niles- I don't own a "bus" and I'm not converting a "bus". My vehicle is licensed, registered and titled in Florida as a "motorcoach". It (for all practical purposes) is a "motorhome shell". It does not need to conform to any "bus" legislation, nor can it carry the passengers it could, if it had been licensed as a "bus". The legislation you cited covers "bus", not "all vehicles". But that aside, for the sake of avoiding redundancy, my preceding posts should suffice. Hey..... the guys can do whatever they want. Take your risks.. It was simply my personal opinion, that adding warning lights and using warning devices when no real warning is needed, can complicate life unbearably. We're out there driving vehicles that make it difficult enough to remain in low profile. There are people that would love to see you stopped and hassled; some hate RVrs... Why would anyone want to add what's not required and further complicate the issues? Just convincing some rookie officer that you're not driving a bus, can be difficult enough, without trying to explain why lights are flashing when you're not facing dangerous traffic situation, or coming to a stop. | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Niles- A number of restrictions and conditions on the type of red lights which may be used are imposed in s. 316.292(1) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Jtng - I understand your common sense approach - but I have been re-defining definitions w/ Florida regulatory bodies for many years now and if you would re-read the definition above you will see it says "any MOTOR VEHICLE 'DESIGNED' for carrying more than 10 passengers....." - in this case the code is not referring to use, but to design - it is my experienced opinion that they would hold you to that definition - Kinda like the people recently ticketed in their F-250's for not having CDL's , they obviously weren't commercial vehicles , but the definition in the code made them such - Thats the beauty of livin in the land of Sunshine - Niles | ||
| John some newguy Rating: N/A |
Hey.... I'm on the wrong thread!? This is the: "In what states is it required by law to operate the 4-way flashers when moving slower than the minimum posted speed limit, such as when pulling a long grade? " thread!! Sorry RJ! | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Niles- New to Florida, but not totally to the snake pit. Arguing with the interpretation of legislation is both time consuming, expensive and never final. With private vehicle operation, the law can be too vague and too broad. My argument on these "let's add flashing lights" threads, is we should not further complicate the problem by adding to it. I'm retired, I can't afford to challenge the law for a whim.. The local bus operator tries to avoid complications by just doing what is required and only having equipment that is required. Anything added that is not required, becomes subject to question. Any vehicle inspector knows how to determine if the stop or turn signals are working as they should. Where are the specifications for "Jake Brake in use" warning signals? I prefer not opening cans of worms. Your comment, by the way.... is best described and explained by the document itself: (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/ctd/a%20Web%20Page%20layout/4%20Laws%20and%20Legislation/2004/P DF/14-90.pdf) (2) "Bus" means any motor vehicle as defined in Subsection 316.003(21) Florida Statutes, other than a taxicab, designed, constructed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation. Please note the "and used" wording. Cheers! | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Jtng - that document is not the Florida Statute - the specific STATUTE can be seen at - www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0316/Sec .003.HTM (you must input a one space under line where the blanks are - BBS would not let me do it) And it says under (3) - Bus.-- Any Motor Vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons (one definition - for non-commercial vehicles) and any motor vehicle, other than a taxi cab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation (second definition - for commercial vehicles). The reference you gave was regarding ONLY Public-Sector Bus Transit regulation. Hope this clears it up. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Oops - try www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0316/Sec 003.HTM sorry - Niles | ||
| Ole Bubba Rating: N/A |
Well RJ, so much for gettin' the answer you wanted! LOL Ole Bubba | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Some questions don't have answers - Niles | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I'm old.... what the hell were we arguing about? I'm reading the same document and whatever pertains to a "bus" is not required in our converted bus shells. The same "and is used" language applies. That aside, the law reads - that a signal must be used to indicate the turning, slowing or stopping vehicle. The signals used may be a hand signal or lights. The motor vehicle codes will describe the type of lights, the intensity, and the placement. It would be a chore.... near impossible... to find any codes to legitimize lights used in conjunction with any engine brake system, since the system may slow a vehicle not more than a simple down gearing of the transmission, or the application of a transmission braking system, or of an exhaust braking system. We should engineer some sort of centrifugal configuration of sensors and lights, that will indicate the slowing of the vehicle regardless of method......?? This is nutz.. There's two arguments going on.... 1. The use of 4-way flashers when we're moving slower than the rest. 2. The addition of vehicle rear flashing warning lights to indicate when the engine brake is operating. Number 1 is almost a no-brainer. Use the 4-way to alert whoever's behind you, that there's reason to stop soon, or that you're either about to be going slower, or already are going slower than the minimum posted speed limit. State laws vary, but you won't be cited for doing what's safe. (riding in the breakdown lane at any speed, is often legally taboo) Number 2? Is number 2. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Well this went out of control. I beleve the if you orderd Jakes form the factory on a GMC 4905 they was wired to the brake lights when they was being used. And if Im going slow I just drop Road flares (fusee) out the window. And if Im going to back up I just blast the horn 3 times and put the padel to the metal, LOOK OUT run for your life here I come. Brian GMC 4905 , Dash 9, Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Brian - Sounds perfectly legal to me - LOL Niles (not a bail bondsman) | ||
| Dan C in NJ
Rating: N/A |
Hello all. Just to add to the opinions. 1) In NJ we have signs posted along the interstates, mainly, that specify vehicles going slower than 40 mph to use flashers. I assume it is a state law but never thought enough about it to look it up. 2) I live in NJ and commute to NYC via bus, Coach USA. The newer MCIs used all have an additional set of lights high on the back that are Amber. These lights are activated when the Retarder is engaged. I beleive lifting the accelerator and slight brake pedal brings them on and I assume slightly more brake pedal pressure also brings on the brake lights. Dan C in NJ | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Brian. Thank you for putting this all in perspective! I'm going right out to buy one of those big boxes of fusees for use through W.V. on my way down to Arcadia! What rate do you suggest for tossing them out the window? Any tips for avoiding those nasty burn marks on the polyester pants when lighting them off? Would a lit cigar work better for starting them while driving than the strikers on the bottom? Thank God for William Grant's off-spring... 5 generations of independent distillers good kids all happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Dan. The New Jersey MCI D commuter coaches are wired to show steady amber lights when the retarder is engaged, and the brake lights come on with a brake application. From following them around, down there on charter work, it appears that the retarders are either set or the driver has set it to come on when the accelerator is lifted. Does anyone know how much control the driver has over the retarder activation on the NJT fleet? It is popular to remove control from the driver in these types of transit operations, where extending brake life is king, and passenger ride comfort is not considered. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Philris Rating: N/A |
RJ, A quick look at the New York Vehicle & Traffic Law did not reveal anything. That would not eliminate the requirement to obey a "traffic device" (sign!!) requiring their use under certain conditions. | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
Personally, while I understand the question, and wanting to know the law in individual states is great, I'm with Two Dogs, I'll be signalling in some form or fashion every chance I get. And I think fusees are a great idea... But I'm thinking Air Force flare launcher... Brian | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
the main thing to remember..reguardless of 'law' is wheather your little head gets to hit the pillow at nite... "LAW"...especially CA. law is silly to study...I got in a big arguement with Ca. D.O.T. years ago..they got very mad and read the "LAW" from "THE BOOK"...saying that NO trailer shall exceed 35 feet on Ca. roadways...at the time I was pulling a 48 foot trailer..also.".all trucks shall remain in the right lane"...silly laws made by silly people that have no idea what is going on | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Buswarrior - Ah-hah! Non-flashing, steady amber lights when retarder/engine brake is applied. Even -I- can handle -that-. But flashing, obtrusive lights? No way, Jose'. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gosh, The intensity of this pursuit of flashing lights reminds me of the scene in the Andromeda Strain when the lady Doctor was "mesmerized" by the flashing red light! Isn't it possible that someone bored by the repeated flashing of lights, to the extent that it dropped below their threshold attention level/span, is bound and determined to commit vehiclular sodomy and will not be denied? (LOL !!) | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I doesn't matter, the motorist will be too busy watching the DVD on their in-dash player anyway. I mean if a motorist rearends something the size of a bus, it's just furthering the cause of natural selection, right? All kidding aside, I just do what the trucks around me do. Gary | ||
| observer Rating: N/A |
Actually, there is some research that indicates that too many flashing lights can actually cause confusion and lead to further accidents. Specifically, when emergency vehicles are clustered around an accident scene. | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
Rating: N/A |
RJ I suggest you look around for one of those "trucker atlas" books. I saw one years ago with the answer you were seeking. It also has a listing (sometimes) of low underpasses on major roads, weight limits in certain areas, and other useful information that pertains to us coach owners just by virtue of weight or size. Truck stops and book stores usually have them. This would probably be your best bet to start with. As for the part of the discussion on what our coaches are or are not - look at the registration. That is the governing document no matter what the coach used to be. That works in all 50 states for motor vehicles. A citation to the contrary is easily overturned. Remember, close only counts in farts, darts, horseshoes, and hand grenades. Laws are what they say they are. If you read something into it, you can change the whole meaning. That's dangerous (mostly to you). Be aware then beware! My $0.02 worth Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
In Oregon as far as I know/remember all trucks and busses under 35 mph and maybe all vehicles if low light conditions/fog exists. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Decelleration Light Article Link FWIW http://www.rvtechstop.com/articles/decelok.pdf |