| Author | Message | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Hi guy's, I mentioned in my posting yesterday that we tow a 35 foot enclosed trailer behind our 4501 Scenicruiser. We actually towed a 25 foot trailer all year, and only used the 35 foot for the last meet of the year. The hitch mounts off the engine cradle, and so far has towed great. Total trailer GVW with race car and tow car in it is about 1000lbs. Looking at the new set of manuals I got from the good lady for christmas, and getting under the bus, there does not seem to be a whole lot holding the cradle in place. We have not had any problems, but wondered if anyone on line has experience with towing a large load behind a 4501, and if I should add additional bracing under the engine cradle forward to the rear subframe? I have to modify the hitch to a 5th wheel to be legal in Ohio at 75 feet, so now is a good time to do this if needed. I may do something anyway, but do not want to do anything dumb. I am just having difficulty visualizing how this thing hangs together. Cheers. Dave PD4501-304 | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Dave, that must be a typo. Surely you mean 10,000 lbs right? gary | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the catch Gary, yes I mean 10,000ibs. I actually just calculated it at closer to 11,000lbs, with both cars, tools etc. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The 10% or 15% that is on the hitch is far far above what is considered safe for GM. Usually 300 lb is OK with 600 being considered the max. All the stress of the engine and tranny really hang off the roof structure , and a every bump would multiply the stress on the hitch be a few times. No doubt ther are huge safty factors built in to any GM , but have you considered a "plan B"? With proper breaks on the trailer towing the weight is no hassle , only the tongue load. United Parcel has trailers with 4 wheels that would seem to solve the problem. Might find one of these used someplace. FAST FRED | ||
| John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A |
Check on the GM busnuts board.I recall there being trailor hitches attached to the Radius rod bushing brackes on the bus. I would assume your trailor is tandum axle, Do you know what the tong weight is? John | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Fred, and John. My estimate of the trailer weight is probably in the 600 to 1000lbs range, maybe a little more, but will need to run and get it measured at the local weigh station. It is a 4 wheel Haulmark Elite trailer with 4 wheel brakes, but has the 8 inch extra height and has the cabinet package with tools and generator up front so this does add to the hitch weight. I could try to set the cars and mobile tool chest to bring the tongue weight down, but this may be difficult, and would make the trailer less stable. I would prefer to try and modify the bus to take the extra load, if anyone knows how, but sounds like it may be difficult as the shell is carying most of it. Fred I think your idea of the UPS truck might be something I could do. I don't want to replace my trailer, but have seen some adds recently in the local trader magazines for a device called a hitch buddy (www.hitch-buddy.com). Since I have to mount a fith wheel behind the bumper, I might be able to come up with a similar arangement to the UPS truck using a 2 wheel dolley to take the hitch weight, then the bus is just pulling the total weight, not subject to the loads from rough roads etc. Hmm need to get the old drawing board out. Would welcome any other thoughts on this, I certainly do not want to start overstressing the bus shell, so if anyone has come up with ways to strengthen the back-end for towing I would appreciate the info, and may end up doing both. Cheers, | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Someone needs to document what Greyhound did on the Freight trailers in Canada, that were ring and pintle hitches, so assumably were more than 10Klb hitches. Didn't someone out there in busland have this at one point? | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
John, I did check out the GM board and found some postings on hitches, but the ones I found were for transverse mounted motors so distance to the rear subframe is a lot less than on the Scenicruiser. Will get under the bus and see if I can extend braces further forward, but would still expect the cradle is going to be carying most of the load into the shell. Cheers, dave PD4501-304 | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
balance...is your only hope...the way a bus is made,no matter how you extend the supports (for PULL)...you must limit your tounge weight to 500 pounds,by shifting the load back & forth on the trailer | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
....Or relocating your axles, however, as you know, a tongue-light trailer is VERY unstable. Gary | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
I think the hitch buddy type you posted is the way to go with the weight you plan on moving. There is others out there like ones you see them pulling new horse trailers with them . The only problem I see with the hitch buddy is it does not turn in a turn and with the over hang of your bus it will scuff off tread off the tires fast. I would Like to see some pic's of you bus pulling your trailer. You said you was making your trailer into a 5th wheel? You could make a hitch buddy type your self and I would use the tag axle off a 4905 you would have air ride and brakes. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Randall Hays (Bulldogie)
Rating: N/A |
Why not make your own hitch buddy with one of the many used towdollies out there? All it would take is some steel and the ball mounted at the right highth. Then the unit would be far enough out there to not hit the coach. Randall | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the posts everyone, before designing a buddy system, I though I had better do some ground work and try to figure out exactly what I needed to fix. So I pulled the trailer out this afternoon between the rain showers and loaded the 2 cars in to check hitch weight. Got a pleasant suprise, first check was a little over 500lbs with the cars as far forward in the trailer as possible, and with the cars pulled back a foot, I got right at 400lbs. Checking the Haulmark brochure on line they recommend a min of 300lbs and evenly loaded my size trailer should have around 420 to 460lbs tongue weight. Based on this I should be able to manage the cars and mobile tool cart to get at around 400lbs which sounds like it should be ok without a buddy. Brien, the reason I am adding a 5th wheel, is to keep the length legal. In Ohio, legal length is 65feet. Only exception are permitted vehicles, or stinger steered boat and auto transporters. I contacted DMV and they would not permit me at the longer length, but did approve me to add a fith wheel mounted behind the rear axle and below the axle center line (basically in the same position as the ball hitch) which qualifies as stinger steered and I can go to the 75ft total length. I have a picture of the bus and trailer posted on my profile, but not sure how to add a picture to a post. If there is a way, let me know and will add one. I still need to paint to match, just not decided on a final color yet. Cheers, Dave PD4501-304 | ||
| dave hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Brian, just figured this board thing out. Just click on my name at the top of this post and it links to my profile, copy of bus and trailer posted there. Dave PD4501-304 | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Dave - Besides the Hitch-Buddy, here's a couple more links to similar-concept ideas: http://www.dallasmotorsports.com/easytow.html http://www.tufftow.com/index.html Along with other GMC owners, I'd agree that if you can figure out some way to limit your tongue weight to around 300 lbs, your Scenic will be much happier. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Dave Hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks RJ, I had started drawing a castor type system similar to the links you included, as I want to only have one pivot point, not 2 with a seperate buddy, both of the ones from your message are a lot simpler than a seperate buddy system. I was able to get the tongue weight down to 300lbs with just the cars in the trailer, but not the tools or generator, but can probably get to 300lbs with some careful loading. I will probably still go with some form of buddy system to try and help minimize the trailer impact on the bus, as the trailer does have a long overhand forward of the front axle. I think the main question has been answered, the bus is not capable of taking high hitch loads so need to manage the load into the bus in some way. Cheers, Dave PD4501-304 | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Ok quit it guys you're scaring me with all this rube goldberg stuff. Dave--Greyhound already did it, figure out what they did. Actually search the archives of this board, I think it's here somewhere. Gary | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Actually, I thought the helium balloon idea was worth a try.... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Hell, at least the baloon would let you back it into a parking space. Gary | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Yeah....... but if it ever leaked, you'd soundlikethis... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Only if ou inhaled..... | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
I tried it once, but I didn't inhale. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah dat's what dey all say. | ||
| Ron Rutledge
Rating: N/A |
Add...Add a axle...go to 3 or 4...put a sider tube in your trailer to shorten up when they stop you to tape you...your weight will be on the wheel's where it belong's | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Gearhead Gary said: Greyhound already did it, figure out what they did. Yup, Greyhound Canada did figure it out - on the MCI DL4500s they're running, not on a Scenicruiser. Different animal. Pintle hitch pulling a 20' two-axle box trailer, quick-disconnect 24vdc lighting hook-up located adjacent to RH taillamp pod. I'll try tomorrow to come up w/ a pic. . . Still like the Tuff-Tow unit best. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Rating: N/A |
RJ: I agree, the Tuff-Tow is the best of the pictured setups. Years ago a buddy used a car trailer with a simular setup, only the dolly wheel was not sprung, and the tongue was hindged ahead of the dolly wheel. this made a trailer with 0 tongue weight, like pulling with a tow bar. also easy to move the trailer around the yard without a tow rig. FWIW, Peter | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Makes me cringe. You mean all the tongue weight is on those little boat-trailer tires? Scary. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
no...all the weight of both vehicles is on them ,when you go over a hump | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
That's what I think. I just don't see a substitute for a real hitch. Gary | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A |
There have been many threads on towing trailers behind buses on this board. As most of you know, I have committed to writing an article for George and Sue Myers on the subject (even apologized to them at Bussin 2005 for being so tardy). The article will address some of the issues involved and hopefully let the reader make a better decision. I can’t begin to go into all of the details here, but the following are some brief thoughts. In general, buses were never designed to pull a trailer. Most do not have strong frame rails like a truck. Instead, the trailer hitch must attach to the engine cradle system. I won’t go into all of the problems that can occur there. There are two major force components when we pull something: horizontal and vertical. Pulling a toad is basically a horizontal load and an engine cradle in sound condition with a well designed hitch can handle any reasonable sized toad. It is when a vertical load is introduced that problems can occur. Reinforced engine cradles combined with good hitch design and equalizer hitches can handle reasonable sized trailers. Bear in mind that equalizer hitches can introduce their own frame issues and care must be exercised in how the hitch is attached to the engine cradle. As was pointed out earlier, that static load are only a part of the picture. The dynamic loads from bouncing down the road is what makes the forces significantly higher and fatigues the structure. Several of the thread have discussed trailers up to 10K pounds (and more) and that is just more vertical load than we should think about putting on a bus trailer hitch (I know it has been done before, but that does not make it generally acceptable). I had mentioned in one of the previous posts that there are good trailer tongue dollies. RJ sited the two web links that I had mentioned previously. The first one seems to be custom built and I can’t get much information out of them. The Tuff Tow is an excellent unit and I have seen many race car trailers with them and the comments are generally good. They have been used by a couple of OEMs and have a bunch of them out there, and I have never heard of any problems. Remember that the wheels only have to handle around 1000 pounds and there are two tires with enough rating to handle quite a bit more load. I hope to get the article done in the next couple of months. Several of you folks have given me good input and I appreciate that. Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO ’85 Eagle 10 http://rvsafetysystems.com Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 8/7/04) | ||
| Dave Hartshorne (Yeeolde48)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Guys, and thanks again for all the posts. Jim, thanks for the last post, I had just pulled some of your comments off the archives from previous posts. I spent a couple of hours in the rain today under the bus, needed an excuse to give her a run, since the weather was warm (but wet) so pulled her up on ramps and took a bunch of pictures under the body to study in my spare time. I still don't see a good way to brace a tow bar without stressing the bulkhead or transfering all of the load through the engine cradle, as everyone has indicated. I spoke to a guy at work, his brother has a 38 foot boat with an early design of tuff tow, and swears by it. He has also used a tag dolley and told me it was better towing forward, and takes all of the vertical load off the tow vehicle, but it was a pain reversing as his was was not a rigid design. His boat is a formula and came with the tuff tow installed. I plan to do some more checking around, but am leaning more towards a dolly of some description. Cheers, Dave PD4501-304 | ||
| Russell Barnes (Neoruss)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, For what it's worth; I happen to have a xerox of the engine cradle page from the parts manual for a Prevost H 45 and it lists two optional tow bars. One for 10,000# and the second for 20,000#. When you're writing your story, why don't you find out how they do it? If they weren't designed to pull a trailer, why two HD hitches and if they can do it, what can we do to modify our buses to do the same? I've the motor, my repowered S60 has the same 500hp program as the Prevost. My Neoplan has a very heavy duty rear frame structure, but I would hesitate to pull 20,000# from the cradle. We all would like the facts of what can work and what can't. Thanks...... | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A |
Thats Why Prevost Cost 10 time more then most other buses. I would think you could use a load equlizing hitch like rease makes that the load go to the front of the car or truck I remaber in the adds the car pulling a boat with no rear tires on it. Thats no down load on the hitch. Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Be careful with load equalizing hitches on a bus, the can rip the tongus right off your trailer. Gary | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Rating: N/A |
I had to get tow when my 82 Prevost broke down on the road. I phone Prevo service and asked if it could be towed backwards...with the tow truck lifting on the back of the engine cradle, they said that that was OK to do. So I don't think that you can use Prevo as a comparison. Ron | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A |
I had heard that some Prevost buses in Canada haul trailers. If anyone has detailed information or can point me to a resource, I would love to learn more about how they get that high of a trailer hitch load rating. I would especially like to have a direct factory contact if anyone can help. I am still on the road returning from Bussin 2005, so I do not have my Tuff Tow file with me. However, they rate their unit at 2000 pound load and I recall that the tires they use have a pretty safe margin over their rating. jim xatx rvsafetysystems ydoty com | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
My discomfort with things like Tuff Tow might be considered a plain irrational fear. I have the same problem with aluminium boats in saltwater. There's jut no talkin' to me. I wtill think a real hitch is the answer. gary | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
So, Gary - How are we going to put "a real hitch" on our GMCs, RTSs, MCIs, Eagles or Prevosts? Define "a real hitch" for us, considering our chassis design, please. RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Geez man, I don't have all the answers. I just talk like I do.  I just keep going back to "What did Greyhound do" because their CA Freight trailers definitely hung from "Real hitches" Gary |