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john (192.9.25.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 5:00 pm: | |
As I work through some of the details, and work up my courage, I want to first of all thank those of you who have listened and responded to my nervous questions. I'd like to presume upon your generous advice and assistance again.
I've been trying to come up with a general strategy for a conversion project that meets my overall goals and plans, and I think I've settled on an approach. I'd love to hear feedback from those of you who've gone through this before, and also get some help figuring out how to get started.
My general goals and plans:
1. My family and I would like to begin a 7-9 month trip around the U.S. starting around January of 2003. We are: me, my wife, my 12-year old son, and my 9-year old son.
2. I'm convinced, and my wife is nearly convinced, that a bus conversion is the way to go. This is based primarily on safety issues with other RV choices.
3. I've become very excited about the idea of doing the conversion myself. As I've related in a few other postings, I don't have much practical experience in the various disciplines involved in doing the work. BUT, I work hard, learn well, have patience and determination, and have shown that I can master most small-to-medium size projects around the home and yard. For example, I was able to do all of the finish work on a room that was merely framed up when we bought the house. This included doing all the design/planning, doing some minor framing to create a closet, sheetrock, some rough and finish electrical, trim, finish painting, carpeting, etc. I've done numerous small plumbing, carpentry, and electrical repair/upgrade/improvement jobs around the house, often consulting some "how-to" books.
Given the above, I summarize my goals as:
- Do the project, from the planning stages (starting now) to finish (ready to drive) in about 15 months
- Spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $50K for the whole project
Other factors:
- I will probably not be working a full-time job during the planning/construction phase, so I will have nearly full-time available for the project
- On the other hand, I expect relatively little help (in the form of brains or muscles), as I don't have any close friends or family nearby that can offer that kind of help.
Given my lack of experience with this type of project, and my strong desire to NOT miss the January 2003 deadline, I'm thinking that the best approach is to buy a shell that is completely mechanically sound so that I can work strictly on building the house itself, and not worry about costly, unpredictable, time-consuming issues with the basic chassis, drive-train, etc. To be honest, that's my real area of interest anyway -- devising the plans for all of the systems and living spaces and then doing the consruction and installation. At least so far, I've not developed alot of enthusiasm for working on engines, brakes, steering systems, etc.
So, here are a few questions:
1. Does this strategy sound reasonable? Have others with similar experience levels had success? Is this enough time to do the project?
2. Given the requirement of having a mechanically sound frame, where do I get started? Am I better off looking for a bus that already meets this requirement, or should I cast a wider net, i.e., if I can get a good deal on a bus that needs mechanical work, buy that one and pay for the overhauls, repairs, etc? I am nervous about the latter course because I fear it will be time-consuming and nerve-wracking, especially if the bus I find is remote (I live in Northern California).
2. Based on the above, where do you recommend I shop for such a bus?
3. Given the above, what recommendations would you have about a bus manufacturer, model and year? This is one area I haven't yet begun to research. I will probably spend the next week or two reading up on whatever I can find to learn about the different models, but some suggested options to consider would be much appreciated!
4. Is there anywhere I can get a look at, or purhcase, detailed system (i.e., plumbing, electrical, A/C, etc.) plans and floor plans? I'm expecting to have to modify anything to meet my needs, but it seems like it would really help the planning process to see such examples of plans.
5. Similarly, does anyone have any ideas on how to create a budget? As I mentioned, I'm looking to spend around $50K total, so I'd like to begin to break that down so I can figure out what kinds of compromises I'll need to make on features, quality, etc.
6. What are the best available "how to" books? I've ordered the Galey "Bible", but haven't received it yet. What other "must have" books should I pick up?
I know these are "big, general" questions, so I'm not necessarily looking for specific, detailed answers, as much as pointers, ideas on how to get started figuring these things out, etc.
Thanks again for all your advice so far, and I look forward to the day I can give something back to this community!
John |
FAST FRED (63.215.236.138)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 5:20 am: | |
THE time required to do a conversion is huge.
I have , what was designed as the "worlds simplests" conversion and I have almost 2000 hours in the work.
I am a skilled builder {of crusing sail boats} that have many more systems , and usually loads more curves in the walls.
TO do the electrical, plumbing HVAC and other systems required almost no research time.
ON boats we call it the 90/90 rule
90% of the work taked 90% of the time ,
the remaining 10% also takes 90% of the time.
IN other words as a hobby its great , on a sked it would be an ulcer.
Although its a bit more pricy there are Real Custom Coach {the name of best mfg} advertised in the $50,000 to $65,000 range that are fine examples of the coach building art.
Angola is fine too.Or Newell.
IN a less costly version , but still fine is Wakefield at $25,000 or so.
Find a coach that was converted from new, it will still have NO miles compared to a million mile ex commercial shell , and although the colors , and somtimes the systems will be old , you will be a few years ahead on just what you need to learn to even wire a coach.
When its time to sell , your selling a KNOWN Quantity , not a backyard special, that could be even better than CC or more likley is lots worse.
FAST FRED |
carlos (152.163.207.53)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:57 pm: | |
I agree, the conversion process is an engineering and design task. most of us lack the professional qualifications and after trial and error end up with a vehicle we are proud of. The reason early british cars were so horrible is that a single engineer usually did all the design work instead of the american team approach. my bus is a fine unit but it took many years of changing things out to get it right and even then i probably would do a few things differently. Solving the conflict between weight, reliability and safety is a continuing problem. Unless you have several years to work out the problems with a series of short trips you may get discouraged. Buy the newest best conversion you can afford and save some of your money for improvements and restoration |
john (192.9.25.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 5:45 pm: | |
Thanks for the advice guys!
I will start to focus on looking at some used conversions that I can upgrade.
I remain very excited about the prospect of doing a full conversion... even though I don't have the background, I can't believe how quickly I've become obsessed with the idea! I guess it really ties together alot of things that I'm very interested in. But I'm getting the idea that my (lack of) background doesn't fit well with my goal of doing a full conversion and having a fit-for-extended-travel coach done by Jan 2003. I need to make sure I don't jeopardize those plans with blind enthusiasm.
I will re-channel some of that enthusiasm into the idea of doing some selective upgrading and improvement of a used conversion, and hopefully that will be a more suitable challenge for this beginner!
Maybe that's the best way to make the transition from being someone who has definite travel interests and is strongly intrigued by the conversion effort, to becoming a true bus nut. Perhaps not surprisingly, my wife was convinced this was the way to go right from the start!
Thanks again -- I appreciate the "dose of reality"!
John |
FAST FRED (63.215.232.133)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 2:24 pm: | |
Your on a great resource ,the best board on the net, there are loads of fine coaches listed FOR SALE on this board.
Go to the first page and click on for sale.
Each Mfg has advantages and disadvantages,
the BEST coach is the best maintained.
With almost everyone having a vidio cam , or a friends with one , you can go shopping , just by returning the vidios.
You will NOT find "your Way" as everyone has a different set of needs.
But if your running post to {power}post , you will find great stuff, if you think you need months in the boonies there are coaches with the systems choices set to do that.
First make a list of what you NEED the coach to do , then add what would be NICE, and figure how much extra you will spend in cash , lost space , and added maint , for NICE.
First decision is peobably how handy the coach needs to be , the 35 or 40 delemma.
Second is probably how long you need to boondock, with or w/o gen set.
Third is how low the temps you contemplate camping in..
Any coach can snowbird , run to fine weather in above freezing , its the below that counts.
What do you think you need?
FAST FRED |
John (192.9.25.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 4:02 am: | |
Here's what I think I need. The general scenario is travelling the USA with family.
1. Something to drive around the country for 9 months with wife and 2 boys (9 and 12). I'll do most of the driving - got lots of driving stamina and did most of our 5-week 5,500 mile trip in a big Class A last summer through Colorado, Utah, Wyoming myself. Maneuverability is probably not utmost priority -- I didn't get stressed taking this beast through the mountains. I'll probably take a bus driving class if available.
2. Probably can't avoid the temptation of 40 feet, so probably willing to accept the trade-offs that go with it. Will tow jeep so access to remote sites in the bus is not a priority.
3. More-or-less snowbirding. Little to no below freezing.
4. Want some room and comfort features since this will be basically full-timing.
5. Relatively little boondocking - but need to be able to be self-contained for 3-4 days "just in case". I found I started to get kinda nervous when we were in the rental motorhome whenever we were running out of water/capacity and didn't know where we were going to end up that night.
6. Lots of space is pretty high priority, given kids needs, all of our toys, the fact that we both like to cook alot (with gadgets), and the fact that my wife is an incurable over-packer. |
Mallie (208.165.105.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 11:22 pm: | |
Hello John: There is not any patented method for converting a bus, and what works for one will not work for others.
In general, you are the only one that knows your capabilities. Don't short change yourself tho, just because you have not done it does not mean you can not learn. You have a perfect group of folks for support, and someone has probably done anything you are contemplating in a conversion.
Choosing a converted bus over a shell has its advantages, but is never exactly what you want, and by the time you get it the way you want it, you might could have built one from scratch. So in choosing a converted coach, get something that is not going to need major changes. As your are going to be full timing, with kids, it may be hard to find a conversion that will fit your needs.
Now,, buying a shell. There seems to be a feeling you can just step out there and buy a shell that is ready to go. Bus companies do not do extra work on their coaches in the last year of service just in order to give you a good conversion shell, in fact, they do just the opposite, and exactly what you would do if you were operating the company for profit.
Since mechanics are a very expensive part of the formula, inspect thoroughly, and buy as good a bus as you can, and expect to take it home and spend at least another 5k to bring it up to snuf. I would recommend you take the time to learn enough to inspect potential buys. This knowledge will not be wasted in the years of maintenance ahead. You might want to learn how to do some of the mechanics on the bus, as the cost of mechanical repair on your bus will be the same as if it were a late model, $400k bus. Shop labor at $75 per hours can eat up your dollars pretty fast. Pesst,, want to make $35 per hour in your spare time working on your own bus?? Or say you are really slow and have to settle of $17.50.
I would say 25k will get you a shell and necessary repairs to bring it up to shape. You can spend more, and some have spent less. There are a lot of mc-9s on the market, and is probably your best bet. A cheap shell can end up costing the most.
Conversion,, You should be able to do a good conversion for 25k if you choose wisely and do the labor.
Value of labor,, regardless of what you hear, your labor does have value, based on quality. If you do a quality work, in a professional manor, on a good shell with a good design, it will have value when you are finished.
Time,,, I have heard of folks that spend untold hours in a conversion, a big lot of it is probably in the learning process. I have built several houses, and the last two was completed in 6 months from the start to move in, the last with no out side labor exempt brick, and sheet rock and Formica and carpet. I was a little younger then, and I knew exactly how and what to do, but there is not more labor in building a conversion than a house. It does take time, and you must put in the hours productively.
Design,,, this is where you have to make the choices. Do you want a raised roof, and new caps, foam insulation, Diesel generator, RV refrigerator, Basement AC, $4k Aqua heat system, designer leather furniture, thermo pane windows?
This is the fun part of a conversion, choosing what you want/need, and balancing it with a budget.
If you are typical, your ideas will evolve as you get into the process.
Good luck in getting your dream unit.
Holler if I can help.
Mallie |
Jerry Hankins (Coachconversion) (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 9:23 am: | |
John:
My wife and I decided to buy a retired MCI coach after enjoying a trip in a conventional motorhome, but hating its poor construction (and its $60k price tag). With "my experience and knowledge", I thought we could [somewhat] easily do a conversion coach, within a defined budget & time limit. I think the endeavor is great and it sounds like you have the time -- a comodity that I don't have a lot of. The budget [may be] tight (is the $50k budget to include the coach?), I think it depends what your needs are. A genset, for example, is gonna cost about $5k (which I still haven't found for less and still meeting our kw needs), which is 10% of the budget. Add batteries, a decent inverter and all the other electrical goodies, you've got a few $$$. Personally, I'd re-review the budget as I know that overages and unexpected things do crop up, although it depends on what the overall scope is (ie: saving coach windows vs. installing new RV-type).
As others have said, this BBS is a great start. The internet has been wonderful for me, and I've visited about 6 professional coverters from CT, OH, PA, FL & IN, where I gained a bit more on-hand visual insight as to how people do things. There are certainly many different ways to do the same thing.
Read, read some more, find the right bus, be realistic about time and $$$ and enjoy yourself and the process. "My two cents." :-)
No major regrets on this end thus far!
Thanks,
Jerry |
john (192.9.25.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 5:00 pm: | |
Jerry and Mallie,
Thanks for the words of wisdom and encouragement.
I agree with the advice of trying to get a sound, working shell. Glad you recommend the MC-9 -- from the research I've been doing lately, and given the seemingly large number of available units, that seems like a good way to go. I also figure around $25K ought to get me a decent shell with solid running gear.
As you advised, I am in the process of reading (and re-reading) everything I can get my hands on. My next two milestones are the Laughlin convention, and acquiring a shell, probably in that order. Prepping for the convention I'm trying to get a "general plan" in place so I can fill in the holes by talking to the experienced folks. Prepping for the shell acquisition, I'm trying to get to see a few MC-9's locally and learn what to look for so I can maximize my shopping by phone. Having to fly out to more than a couple sites to find a shell will start to get expensive and time-consuming. So far, not much luck finding anything local to look at.
Jerry - I think you're right re: the budget. I was initially thinking of a shell in the $15K range. I figure I'm gonna have to dig deep and probably come in somewhere in the 60-65K range by the time I'm done.
Any other pointers on the shell aquisition -- my current biggest worry -- would be much appreciated!
Really appreciate all the help so far!
Regards,
John |
FAST FRED (63.208.87.214)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 5:20 am: | |
Most of the $8,000 - $9,000 MCI 9's have been driven home with nothing bit an oil change and slack adjuster turn.
Great coaches are avil at under $10 grand , call ABC and reserve a couple.
FAST FRED |
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