| Author | Message | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Folks, OK, it turns out I need to be much more specific about my problem than I was in my previous post. I say this because I have followed up on all the well-intentioned suggestions I received and have still come up empty. Here in a nutshell is the problem: I have a German-built coach, which has German-spec axles and hubs. The wheel studs are a metric size. This is not a standard part that would be in-stock at any US shop. What I need is a recommendation for a shop that can: 1. Hammer out one of the studs from a steer wheel and one from a drive wheel. 2. Identify the stud mounting mechanism either by sight or using whatever sort of gauge is normally used for such tasks. 3. Order sixty new studs that will fit my hubs, but which are 1/4" to 1/2" longer than the ones I have now, more or less (actual delta to be determined upon measuring the thickness of my existing wheels). 4. Install said studs into said hubs. Preferably, this will be a shop that can also supply me with six shiny new Alcoa wheels (which will also not be in stock, but at least I have Alcoa part numbers) and eight brand new 12R22.5 tires, then mount, balance, and install same. However, this is not strictly required -- many of the shops that have been recommended to me already can source the wheels and tires. It is the studs which are the hang-up. I had originally requested recommendations in California, but this is turning into such a hassle that I would be happy to hear about anyone west of the Rockies. Thanks! -Sean | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Sean - for your studs you might try Road Equipment in Atlanta @ 800-660-9884 - or Kimbell in Columbus Oh 800-233-1294 - if not maybe they can send you in the right direction - Niles | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Would a Volvo semi tractor also use metric wheelstuds? Maybe a heavy-truck shop? | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
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Sean, if you're going to replace your studs, maybe you could replace the studs and lug nuts to a more common style/size. It might make finding Alcoas that fit, a lot easier. Just a thought. Ed | ||
| John Feld (Wvobus)
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I assume you are looking for the shinny wheel look. Why not have your wheels cromed instead? Less expensive and requires no change of studs. John F. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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I may be wrong, but I remember something about the chrome plating process causes the wheel to be more likely to crack and chrome wheels are not allowed on steer axles. Some states do not allow simulators on the steer axle either, something to do with not being able to easily inspect the wheel for cracks. | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
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I had looked into powder coating my wheels and was told the heat could cause cracking. On my budget at present I'll be lucky to get a nice coating of Rust-oooo-leum. How many alum cans do I have to save so I can cast a set of Alcoas? Vin a.k.a. Bones | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
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Sean ...what I did was to remachine the angle on the wheel nuts. On standard inch wheel nuts there's a counterbore about 3/32 to 3/16 deep that isn't threaded, on the tapered side of the nut. I remachine the taper, on the nut, back to where the threads started. This gives you the extra lenght req'd for the alcoa's, assuming that you are using steel wheels in the inside of the drivers, without compromising the amount of threads on the nut. The counterbore is for steel wheels. You have to buy new (longer) inner nuts (that holds the i/s driver wheel on. If you require more info email me off line. Ron | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Chrome plating introduces the possibility of Hydrogen embrittlement, which can effectively be avoided by baking at 300-400 deg F for a couple of hours. Powder coating likewise requires heat approaching those figures to "fuse" the "paint". Not enough temp to hurt steel wheels, IMHO. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Uhh, Ron -- You're talking about Budd wheels. My wheels are hub-piloted. There are no "inner nuts" nor is there any "taper" -- hub-pilot wheels use flat nuts that are threaded all the way. -Sean | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Sean - don't tear my head off - but this may help - understanding that you don't speak German - here is the number for a distributor in the UK - at least they will speak English (albeit the queens) - maybe they can research the parts necessary by your VIN# - and ship the correct size studs with the requisite extension - +44 1709 700600 - hope this helps - Niles | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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think I would FORGET about alum. wheels if I were you... | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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OR forget about alum for now - get new tires NOW on your wheels since you need them badly, and research studs at your leisure. Yes, wasted mounting/balancing and redoing that later, but compared to driving on worn out tires for months desperately trying to find a one-source vendor... (like I know what I'm talking about- duh) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Niles -- thanks for all the pointers. Everyone -- thanks for the help. Just for the record, yes, we've thought about alternatives to aluminum, and we've discounted most of them. If we have to stick with the steels, we will paint them, but, as you know, that's a process that needs to be repeated every couple of years or so, and we were hoping to avoid it. Also, we'd like to save some unsprung weight. Our real motivation is to get rid of our hub caps, which need to be removed (via two nylock nuts each) every time we even want to check tire pressures. One reason we'd really like to do this now, before we put new tires on, is I would like to check my tire pressures daily, as well as inspecting the lug nuts. The hub caps dissuade me from doing that way more than they should. Lastly, the hubs are already 20 years old, so replacing studs now is a good idea in any case, even if we stayed with the steels. -Sean | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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stay with the steel....yes on removeing hub caps....get in the habit of feeling your hubs after you stop..if you can't hold your hand on the hub because it's too hot...ya' got a problem. | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Paint the wheels white, nothing Al looks any better than nicely painted white wheels. You can buy epoxy white in spray cans. Really!! I didn't believe it myself until I tried it. I painted my airplane nose bowl with it and it is great. Unfortunately it only comes in white and black. Steel is always better than Al, especially hub piloted. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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SEAN: Another one of my shots in the dark, but have you tried checking with corporate Alcoa for a source, or perhaps a regional distributor for Alcoa. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Sean: I just went out and measured the thread dia. of my studs on the Jetliner. My wheels are not precisely like yours, although hub piloted. I have a smaller hub hole than what u described last week and my rims are "Firestone" (but then I have a US made model). Anyway, the studs measure 22mm thread dia. If that matches what u have I will get a length and check my parts manual for the Jetliner and see what is specified and that may lead u somewhere. I don't have Alcoa's, but steel, so I know they won't be long enough, as I only have about 1/4" out of the nut with steel rims. Let me know if the 22mm matches up and I will check further. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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James, Thanks, that would be great. Yes, my studs appear to be 22mm, to fit a 26mm lug hole. Also, to let everyone know, I did get an email today from Neopart (even though, after two weeks, I had given up on it) with some part numbers. These would have to come from Germany on a 3-week lead, though. My experience thus far with Neopart has been that they never send the right thing on the first try, so the possibility exists to order 60 studs, wait four weeks, and receive 60 studs that don't fit. So I am holding off on that as a backup plan, and moving forward trying to find someone who can identify the studs and order replacements locally. Thanks everyone. -Sean | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
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Sean, as I also own a unique bus, I know the 'thrill of the hunt' for parts that (according to some that post) 'do not exist', and the joy of meeting new friends while finding the part. Good luck on your quest, and let us know the results. Kyle | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
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Hey Sean.. you could try a machine shop with a CNC turning center. It might be close to the same price as getting them from Germany and you would be getting what you need. You would have to pull one stud out of each hub on one side of the bus...It may be worth a try. Ron | ||
| Ken Turner (Pipesusmc)
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Ron "You would have to pull one stud out of each hub on one side of the bus..." Studs = right and left hand THREADS ? | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Ken: Not necessarily so. From the factory w/Meritor built axles and hubs, my Jetliner uses all rh thread studs, r & L side (22mm fine metric thread). Hub piloted and use a different nut arrangement than Budd type. | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
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Hi Ken ...All you would need is one side pulled for dimensions OD & lenghts ect., plus lenght req'd for Alcoa rim, on rim side only. Then spec 30 pcs r/h thread and 30 pcs l/h thread on rim side. Ron | ||
| Ken Turner (Pipesusmc)
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Ron.. I mentioned it just in case the machinist Might not be aware of them being right and left/ hand on truck/bus wheels should have explained my self a little better EH. would be a costly mistake.$ PS I am allowed to say EH.eh. I was born up there EH ......OOPs James I just read your post. your answer is why my note was short with a question mark.. In the back of my mind I thought "maybe" some studs on big rigs are not bi-sexual. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Sean, have you contacted ABC? With Van Hool as their major vendor, (European) they may have a clue? And they work on all types. Here's two locations: 13261 Garden Grove Blvd. Garden Grove, CA 92843 ABC Service America 6165 South Decatur Blvd. Las Vegas, NV 89118 SOUTHWEST 800-222-2877 WESTERN 800-322-2877 http://www.abc-companies.com/contact.htm | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Ron -- Good suggestion. Ken, et, al, -- On hub-pilot wheels, like mine, all the studs and nuts are the same (normal) thread. The opposite-thread stuff is only for stud-centered (Budd-type) wheels. -Sean | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Chuck, Yes, I've talked to ABC, thanks. Van Hools also use European-spec wheels, and I had talked to them hoping to get some Alcoa take-offs, as many operators are changing 8.25" rims for 9" ones. The Van Hools have longer pilots (AKA "lands") than the Neoplan, so they can dual the aluminums. This lets them get away with using Alcoas with larger lug holes and a special "sleeved" cap nut that Alcoa makes just for this purpose. It allows you to mount aluminum wheels on studs long enough only for steels. The problem with this arrangement, in my case, is that the sleeve on the special cap nut would bottom out on the steel inner wheel, which is required because my lands are too short for dual aluminums. I asked Alcoa about drilling out the steels to accept the sleeve nut, and they hemmed and hawed about the possibilty the sleeve would even bottom out on the hub without a second alumninum wheel in there. Bottom line is they said "don't do it." So ABC has never had to put longer studs onto the Van Hool hubs -- they just stick with the standard length and use the sleeved nuts. More than you wanted to know, probably... That being said, it is a good suggestion to ask them to do the work. At least they've *seen* a Euro-spec wheel, which is more than I can say for most of the wheel places I've already talked to. -Sean | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Sean: Sorry, but I started down a dead-end ystdy. I rechecked and my studs are not 22mm but 7/8 14 NF. Also, on measuring, my stud bore on the wheels are 1 3/16" (approx 30mm). Threaded length of stud is 1 3/8". The stud is doubled ended w/thread and uses a backing lock nut to secure it in the hub. Stud is shouldered behind the lug nut thread which pulls against the outside face of hub by the backing lock-nut. The wheel also pilots onto this shoulder by some amount that I cannot measure w/0 removing a wheel (as I recall from having had them off it is about 1/8"). I also have no idea what the length of the un-threaded portion is that passes thru the hub flange, if it is serrated, knurled, or what? From the design i'm speculating that it is merely a tight slip-fit thru the hub flange. They are Rockwell/Meritor and even my factory maintenance manual lists the studs as "special". Just for info. so that u will know that u DON'T want these part #s, they are: Drive axle, Neoplan Part # AO07.00.001.088 Steer & Tag: EA08.00.001.036 Sorry | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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James, Thanks anyway. I had thought it was odd that you'd have a Meritor with metric studs -- your current description makes more sense. These Mercedes hubs take the press-in-from-the-back sort of stud, anyway (so far as I know, without taking a wheel off) vs. the shoulder-and-nut variety that you have. BTW, in case you ever need them, Rockwell spun off Meritor some time ago. It's now ArvinMeritor (although they seem also to market under MeritorWabco), http://www.arvinmeritor.com. -Sean | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Sean: Reading your prev. post just prior to my last one, there is a set of simulators made that use a stud sleeve, they refer to them as stud extenders (Versa Liner by Dicor Corp, Elkhart, IN); I have these simulators on the Jetliner. However, I did not use the extenders because of price; they get $25 ea for them and their method requires 2 for each wheel. I devised a different method of attaching that totaled $2.00 each wheel. The extenders I have seen were for standard 1" studs and Budd wheels. As used by Dicor, they do not bear the load of the wheel but they do appear to be heavy duty and could. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Oouuuch!!! I just finished clarifying pricing with Neopart on the studs they quoted me. They will cost between $25 and $35 EACH -- meaning $500-$700 per axle. This does not sound right, so I have a new question for the group: Has anyone here bought any wheel studs at all? What *should* they cost (rough order of magnitude -- $2 apiece, $10 apiece, $20 apiece)? Also, they quoted me longer studs for the steers than the drivers, which just sounds wrong. The one other person with a Neoplan that has done this says the parts they sent him were all too long, which tends to corroborate this. -Sean p.s. Lest all this fidgeting with wheel parts give anyone the wrong impression, I *love* my Neoplan and would not trade it for any other shell. I don't perceive my level of problems to be any different than for any 20-year-old, out-of-production coach. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Long Shot - Heavy Duty Parts Ltd. Cross Street, Sturton-le-Steeple, Retford, Notts DN22 9HW, UK Tel: +44 (0)1427 881109 E-mail: sales@heavydutyparts.co.uk www.heavydutyparts.co.uk Specialists in coach parts for Neoplan, Setra, Mercedes and MAN | ||
| Connel Smalling (Connel)
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Sean, I purchased metric studs to replace originals on my Eagle 05 steer axle & bogies to accommodate new style alum wheels. They were $6.55 each and from the company below. They have a whole catalog of them. Good Luck Betts Truck Parts 20 North 48th Avenue Phoenix AZ 85043-0000 (602) 352-0032 | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Sean: U should have told Jean that u could buy a used MetroLiner and swap out axles and all for that kind of money. Few months ago I bought a part from Neopart's vendor for $100 less than Neopart wanted, and the supplier had the correct part, unlike Neopart. Standard 1" studs generally run $7-10 depending on source. | ||
| Syd Pygott (Sydstoy)
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When I put aluminum wheels on my bus I put stud sleeves on and used alum on the inside dual. The sleeves cost me six dollars each times ten times four. Maybe it would be cost effective for you to use alum instead of steel on the inside. Syd | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Syd -- You can't do that with hub-pilots, only with stud-centered (Budd-type) wheels. Hub-pilot wheels have to engage the hub itself, and Alcoa specs a certain pilot or land depth for dual aluminums. As it is, even with a steel on the inside, the hub lands will only engage about half of the outer, aluminum, wheel. -Sean | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Update on the great wheel debacle: I've given up on changing the studs. Neopart wants $23 apiece or $34 apiece for studs, depending on wheel, and then they're on 3-week lead from Germany. Kamax, the manufacturer of the studs, has a US office which does not believe they are available here, or possibly even made any longer. If I could get Mercedes part numbers, I could likely get them through Freightliner, but I'm guessing they'd also be well over $10 each. I've decided to try a different strategy: Alcoa makes a "retrofit" wheel to be used when the studs are too short. The studs are 22mm metric items, and the lug holes on a "normal" wheel are 26mm in diameter. The retrofit wheel has much larger 32mm lug holes. A special sleeved nut is used, which threads on to the 22mm stud *inside* the 32mm hole -- the sleeve is 32mm diameter. The sleeved nuts are expensive -- $12 each vs. $3 each for the standard flange nut. But this is still less than I would pay just for replacement studs, it appears, let alone the cost of hammering out the existing studs and pressing in new ones. I'm aways a skeptic about these sorts of things, and it remains to be seen whether these items fit my weird coach properly. After doing as much advance research as I can, I decided to bite the bullet and order six wheels and sixty sleeve nuts. I will post an update when these come in and we see if they can be properly fitted. If they don't work, we're going to paint the steel wheels black and call it done. Les Schwab, who could neither change my studs nor supply me with these wheels (I bought them through Century Wheel) has agreed to mount them up, as I will be buying a full set of tires and a SmarTire pressure monitoring system from them. Incidentally, we are going with Bridgestone R250F rib tires on the steers and tags, and M711 traction tires, which are M/S rated, on the drivers. Now I just need to find a shop that can do a full-coach alignment for us and we'll be all set. -Sean | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Sean: Glad to hear that you found a solution to the dilema. In all of this I was wondering if NeoRuss had come across the same problem since I think he has a Neo similar to yours in age, although I think a diff. model. I had a p/u a few yrs. ago with Craeger Mag wheels on it and it used sleeved nuts in oversize holes. They held up good on it but then they were not carrying the load that yours will be. If u have difficulty with the alignment and u come thru Redding on I-5 headed North there is a heavy alignment shop that enjoys a good reputation up here. They are at Oasis Road and I-5, Hunt Alignment. Many of the bus people around here have used them and been well satisfied with their work. They primarily do heavy trucks. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Postscript: Well, I've finally got my new wheels installed, and I promised to update everyone here. The Alcoa retro-fit wheels with the extra-large lug holes and matching Alcoa sleeve nuts worked like a charm, and I did not have to replace any studs. I bought the wheels from ABC as they had them in stock in Florida for the Van Hools. Most of the story is in our blog here: http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/03/we-are-at-laguna-seca-recreation-area.html We are still waiting on some replacement steel inners, which are also coming from ABC in Florida. The other item that I did not post in the blog is that I also ordered $365 worth of hub center caps and lug nut covers from Hub King, and those turned out not to fit. The domes for the steers and tags would fit in the unmounted wheels, but they hit up against the flanges on the sleeve nuts, so they will not fit once the wheels are mounted. The cans for the drive hubs are smaller diameter than the hubs, so leave quite a bit of the hub showing. And the stainless acorn covers for the nuts don't cover the flanges on the nuts (the same flanges that the hub domes hit). So we will be returning these items, paying the 20% re-stocking fee, and call it a lesson learned. We actually decided that the bare hubs and nuts have a nice, albeit "industrial," look to them, and we will probably just clean them up and leave them uncovered. -Sean |
