| Author |
Message |
skoolbus nut
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 9:42 pm: | |
I am thinking of the 12 volt wiring for my bus.
Is this an okay thing to use?...
I found some extension cords for sale CHEAP!
they are 12-3 guage. At only 14cents a foot
(100'- $13.95)
Of course, each cord actually has 300 feet of wire inside it! Now the price comes down to less than five cents per foot.
Already inside a protective jacket, wouldn't this be a good way to do lots of the DC stuff?
thanks!
Mark
75 Gillig 636D 3208 cat turbo allison automatic diesel pusher type skoolie bus (AKA S.U.B.) |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 10:04 pm: | |
it'll do fine........ |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 10:08 pm: | |
I have used the same sort of stuff. The only issue is the colors. It's nice, even with the 12volt dc, to stick to black/red as hot. |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 11:08 pm: | |
Actually, very often white is used in many DC aplications to denote positive wires.
I think it's a very good idea, in fact I used extention cord wire to rewire my oil pressure sender!
The only caution I would have is against using wiring with rubberized insulation... only use plastic insulated.
Brian |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 11:37 pm: | |
Just the term "EXTENSION CORD" should have shot CAUTION Signs up before your eyes.
As far as the conductor is concerned, depending on the current you plan to need and the length of the cable, #12 conductor could be ok. The Third conductor could be used for switching or a second circuit.
HOWEVER, if this is the "throw it on the floor" type extension cord you are talking about you need to do some serious thinking.
Most EXTENSION CORD jackets are soft, fragile and TEMPORARY. Generally life is speculated 3 to 5 years, tops.
The Cover on the indiviual conductors is also soft.
EXTENSION CORD is ment to be thrown on the floor, used to vacuum out the car or use a temp light in the yard or use a power tool in the garage and pick it up and store after words.
EXTENSION CORD drys with time and will crack, is not UV protected and generally does not hold up.
If you put excessive load on the EXTENSION CORD, it will crack/short due to the created heat.
Search BNO archives and look at what the other recommentations are.
IF you are looking for cheap, than thats the type of conversion you will have. Also, using EXTENSION CORD will cause problems with insurance and resale price will drop.
I used boat wire, tried and true in the marine industry.
You got to pay, if your gonna play.
cd |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:21 am: | |
While we're on this topic....
In our commercially made "Georgie-Boy", they used 35' of
welding cable to feed the front mounted 12v battery power
to the rear mounted genset. The insulation was cracked and
had totally disintegrated in numerous places between front
and rear, causing numerous shorts and obviously hazardous
conditions. I replaced it all with battery cable..
Some wire is for temporary and non-concealed use; some isn't. |
Glenn MC-9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:25 am: | |
I agree with CD.
When I think of "extension cords", the word temporary comes to mind. Most extension cords are made to use to run drill motors, saws, lights, etc. for a short period of time. Now, I'll go on and say that I've seen cords run to stuff and forgot about.
What I've seen happen to most cords is the outer jacket will "break down" due to UV, oils, gas and heat.
I wouldn't dare use a cord that has a "SO" rating. Any oil or gas that gets on it will soften it and could be dangerous if not detected in time (been there/done that).
Personally, I'd go with a wire or cable that has a "THHN" jacket. It has a tough jacket plus it's made to withstand oil and gas. As CD stated, marine wire is even better.
Usually there is a reason we can buy stuff cheap.....because it is.
Glenn |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:08 pm: | |
Some newer china made elchepo cords are crap. I have had extension cords last for almost ever . I have one tempary across the driveway and being driven over every day. The cheepo ones 100' for 5 dollers are crap.
But a good one would out last most of us. I used a good one 15 years ago to wire my car trailer wiring and is open to the bottom road grim and dirt and still looks as good as when put in. So I would think in a wall of a bus where it gets no UV's dirt or heat it would last as long as it does sitting on your self in you shop.
I never heard of welding cable going bad like john said . I had welding cable in my 79 ford pu running a aux battery in the service body .It had oil heat diesel on it for the past 25 years .
Unless it was out side next to a hot exhust pipe of a over worked gas motor where I seen the pipe glow red I dont see good welding cable going bad.
Even one of my 24 volt enverters come from the factory with welding cable for the leads.
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:22 pm: | |
If u are talking about the contractor grade power cords like u typically find at Costco or thereabouts, they will suit your purposes fine. They are intended for rugged usage and withstand a lot of abuse over long period, although I have never found one that will withstand a Skill Worm Gear Drive Saw. If u are talking about cheapo household extension cord, I have to agree, no. |
DMDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | |
I used boat cable also as I worked in the marine trade. Unfortunatly it is approved by the coast guard but "not up to code" for conversions. Its not approved by the NEC. It works its just not approved. George Myers' "Designing Electrical Layouts" covers it pretty well. Anything goes until it goes wrong. Its going to be hard to rewire our coach correctly from the random hodgepodge of us and the before folks. Might better do it right the first time Mark. (cheeper in the long haul) |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 6:07 pm: | |
DMDave, isn't the marine spec stuff stricter than the conversion code would require? If so, ya can't go wrong with that.
Vin |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 6:20 pm: | |
First, You must think safety of the cable. Talking about buying an EXTENSION CORD cable for .05 cents a foot, this is a temporary use cable, built flexible for that purpose which weakens the insulation covers, and then to bury this inside a wall, probably made of wood which will experience extreme hot and cold temp changes forever, or until the insulation fails causing the conversions to burn to the ground.
Have you thought about SAFETY?
When thinking about wiring, the bus must be of a type that is permanent, not TEMPORARY, that will handle the environment over time.
I have seen these extension cord cables fail from mild use, insulation peel off exposing the conductors. I have had a heavy duty construction cable fail as well. I can never consider any of this cable to be adequate to hide inside a wall of a conversion.
<<<>>> Thought on Marine grade cable
I've known about the "not up to code" comments about Marine cable for conversions. Quite frankly, I don't understand the comment.
The cable is stranded copper and each strand is tinned to prevent oxidation or corrosion. (a benefit excellant for our conversions.
Stranded conductors resist breakage from vibration and is used in all cars(Minus the tough outer jacket.
The theory of electrical power is that the little electrics run along the outside of the conductor, limited in a single hard conductor but given additional surface area to "run" along multiple stranded conductors.
The insulation is tuff as heck, much like that of the flexible white underground cable used in and outside of homes. Some is very difficult to strip the insulation from the conductors. Even the white jacket is made of very tough material, not found on "contractor extension cords" or the cheap variety of extension cord.
So I am wondering just what the NECs problem is when addressing suitability with marine cable. They allow household SOLID cable in RV's which is not as enduring as a stranded cable so what gives?
One would think Solid conductors would be put on the "Not Suggested" list. The Marine Grade cables have been tested through environments that an RV or BusConv would never see in a lifetime. Did they not care for the color code of the conductors? It seems to be the only difference I can see.
Any Ideas out there? Still seams to be the safest cable to buy. I am curious what exactly the NEC is looking at since it doesn't seem to make sense.
cd |
skoolbus nut
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 9:55 pm: | |
Cory - and others,
Is there any symbol or code numbers on any of these extension cords that will help me to decide if they are any good?
The ones that I found are direct from the manufacturer, wholesale - closeout priced. My brother-in-law buys their submersible pump cable all the time, he says the quality is as good as any he has seen.
No, I'm not about to bury anything in my walls that would be dangerous just for the sake of cheep! But I did think I found a good source for these cords.
no, no, NO! brown light duty cords. C'mon man!
thanks everybody for your input. I'm hoping to figure out how to tell the quality of these extension cords...or the wire inside.
Mark
skoolbusnut |
airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:20 pm: | |
http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/fredhobe.htm
Go read an expert on wiring. |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:48 pm: | |
Mark
I am sorry to say, I don't beleive any kind of extension cord belongs in the walls of a bus.
Go get some good wiring, follow the codes if you must but the stuff you are looking at is for temp use at best.
Do a good job on your conversion and you won't be sorry, but you will be very proud.
Your safety is at risk here, if you know you will be safe with a certain cable, great but please, Don't guess.
cd |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:28 pm: | |
John, welding cable is fine for battery cable. They probably used too small a cable and constant heat from carrying too high an amp load for the size cable caused it to age and crack, or it was just bad welding cable. If you go to a battery shop the buy welding wire and sell you battery cable. On a GM 4905 they used 4/0 cable for a 35 ft run. What size was your cable.
I have never seen an extension cord last like home electric wire. I would not use it. |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:55 pm: | |
Mark, I'm not promoting any one company here but since this is the catalog I have handy...Waytek, 12 awg automotive primary wire, your choice of 14 colors, 500 foot spool for $42.75, just under 9 cent a foot (plus shipping). No need to bargin hunt on this one.
If there ever is a wiring problem, you will be glad you used proper gauge, color codes and wire markers on your work. There really is a method to this BusNut madness!
Bones
1973 GMC T6H4523
Just go to their website and request a catalog. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:53 am: | |
Isn't it simply amazing, that manufacturers make, label, and market
cable for welding and cable for battery wiring, rather than just
make, label, and market it all the same? It's a wonder they stay
in business!
http://www.quickcable.com/32.html
(I wonder if the experts can see the difference?) |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 4:55 am: | |
"isn't the marine spec stuff stricter than the conversion code would require? If so, ya can't go wrong with that. "
There IS a differemnce between what is unquestionably the "BEST" wire for a coach (marine boat wire) and what the self serving RVIA choses to "accept".The CHEAPEST house CRAP
AS somehow the RVIA considers RV's as fixed structures and none of their wiring practices are suitable for any mooving vehicle , its interesting that NOT having House code wire is BAD but having the best and safest is UNAPROVED.
Most boat wire IS UL aproved (and rated by a dozen hard agencys all over the world) but it hasn't had the House Test that RVIA claims a RV is.
Catch 22, Anyone?
FAST FRED |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 7:06 am: | |
That's because to the RVIA an RV is a fixed structure. Given the poor designs and specs of the average sticks and staple box, would you expect anyone to drive one any significant distance?
Most of them tend to rot in their owner's driveway.
I've rewired battery boxes with welding cable and plan to do so on my coach as well. Welding cable has finer strands than standard stranded cable and is easier to handle, in my opinion. Probably handles vibration better, too. The insulation jacket is usually synthetic rubber, which stands up well to most acids.
Mark, a good way to tell the quality of the cords is to cut one open and examine it. Another way is to stress it and see if it fails. Rig up a test fixture to pass 20 amps through a 100 foot section of the cord, then check its entire length for hot spots. This will tell you how consistent the production of the cord is. Hot areas will reveal areas where the conductors have more resistance.
Of course, you'll have to have a fuse in the circuits using such cords. While 12 guage wire is rated to 20 amps, having a larger safety margin is a good way to ward off trouble. Consider limiting these circuits to 10 amps and fuse them as such.
Electron flow through a conductor uses the entire cross section of the conductor in DC circuits. The "skin effect" of electron flow only becomes a concern at radio frequencies.
I have what I consider a healthy contempt for those who wave a code book and look down on anyone who thinks outside of the box, proclaiming the code to be as valuable as the words of the Almighty and anyone who chooses not to follow them to produce something that is inferior. While some building codes are devised for good reason (fire breaks in vertical walls every four feet, for example) others are designed to serve the economic interests of the field of industry they govern. Do a Google search on "optimum value engineering" for an example of the latter.
If you choose to go it alone, you had better be very confident in your engineering abilities so that you don't create an incendiary device when you really just wanted some reading lights. Remember, this is a metal box that you'll be sleeping in.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with using extension cord stock to wire low voltage circuits. I would however test the wire as described above and limit maximum current to what I feel is a safe level. Others will most definately disagree. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 8:38 am: | |
Man, the speculation..... how about another one:
Since the recreational vehicle was designed to be used on
land and make use of typical land designed services, the RV
industry conformed to the standards of land type services.
Manufacturers that are designing products that will use
typical household services, will try to meet the specifications
of those household services.... if for not any other reason than
to protect themselves against liability in the event of failure.
The marine industry conforms to different specifications for
reasons that should be obvious.
Phil-
You can use fabric covered wire; Use whatever your heart
desires. After finding all the shorts due to disintegrated insulation,
I did enough research to learn why it should not be used in the
manner they had used it (35' under the rv). If what you need
is battery cable, and it's going to be exposed for a long period
of time and used in the manner of typical battery cable... use
battery cable.
I despise the self-serving "codes" just as you and FF do. Marine
wire (and other specifications) usually exceed specifications for
land type. There is no "safety" reason to avoid the use of marine
products in the making of your RV. If we want to pay the higher
price, there is no reason not to. But it must be understood that
things like electrical hookups, telephone connections, and plumbing
connections may be different between marine and RV. It's best
to use what is most commonly used at the point of service entry.
As a last comment Phil... That "incendiary device " you talk
about would have been my Georgie-Boy, had I not found the shorts.
The cable feeding the genset starter was not fused (they usually
are not fused). The cable missing the insulation was grounding
against the chassis and frame... Routed between gas lines, brake
lines, over the fuel tank, and among wires for other services,
it could have been a disaster.
It was welding cable and marked as such. Battery cable does not
disintegrate when used in that type of environment; welding cable may. |
DMDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:24 am: | |
is it better to get a coach with marine wire and an automatic trans or extension cord unit with manual? (comedy folks, just kidding!) |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:31 am: | |
Battery cable also disintegrates . Any cable exposed to heat, cemicals, oils will disintegrate. Mostly its heat that dammages cable.
My battery cable on my 4905 where it goes over the muffler had cracks in the insulation I had to fix .
Had they run the cable on that georgeboy on the inside it would have out lasted the motor home.
For short runs in the battery box I would use battery cable but out side of there for runs to feed other things welding cable would last forever inside the bays and walls of a coach.
Most of the problems in faulty wiring come from where the wires are connected. Lose connections , screws getting into the wire,too big a load on a over fused wire . I dont care what type of wire you use spend 10 times more for boat wire . Put 15 wires in box made for 4 with wire nuts and poor connections inproper fuses and you will have problems.
All I know what ever wire I end up using I will get at Homedepo I will just do a good job putting it in and not have it where I can not get at it to make changes. I have a bus not a boat floating in salt water.
What does marathon use for wires Im sure its not boat wire.
Brian 4905 Klamath Falls Oregon |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:15 am: | |
"That's because to the RVIA an RV is a fixed structure. Given the poor designs and specs of the average sticks and staple box, would you expect anyone to drive one any significant distance?"
167,000 miles on my friend's Dodge-chassis Coachman class C when sold. Saw it last week, still going strong.
And for the record, the battery cables (chassis & house) in that motorhome & in almost everything I own are heavy-gauge welding cable.
The block heater cord for my truck is at least 15 years old, and gets run over, walked on, & dragged across cracked concrete daily--no damage yet. It's no cheapie--it's a heavy-duty contractor-grade 20-amp cord (IIRC, my block heater pulls ~12) I bought at a lumberyard. In the summer, it runs my string trimmer or chainsaw. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:28 pm: | |
My neighbor's grandfather ate fatty foods all his life, drank like a
fish, and smoked like a chimney...... Died at 94..
(ya'know what I'm sayin'?) |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 8:41 pm: | |
A little further information from someone who has BTDT.
The National Fire Code requires that all construction in this country be built using Code approved material, including wiring. The NFPA does not cover the marine industry. It is covered by several other agencies.
It is quite expensive and time consuming to manufacture your equipment (or wire) to meet UL. My first experience in building a piece of machinery to meet UL cost well over $10,000 and many months of labor to document everything and pass their on site inspection tests. Follow up tests were required and on a random basis so you never know when the inspector was going to pop in for a surprise visit. It was a lot of work, and expensive, but I had to maintain UL listing to sell in the US market place.
When I entered the marine market with the same identical product, I no longer had to maintain UL listing since products for the marine marked do not fall under the purview of NFPA and the associated listing agencies. I therefore did not spend the time or money to maintain UL listing on the marine products.
And by the way, UL does not “approve” anything and they are very quick to let you know if you happen to indicate in your advertising that a product is UL approved. It is “UL Listed“ for a specific application.
Richard |
Cory
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:32 pm: | |
What is BTDT?
I have commented on the so called "UL" listing testing procedure before.
As Richard says, they only test for a SPECIFIC APPLICATION.
That means it is listed for what it is tested for and may not be suitable for a similar use such as an RV interior vs a cabinet wiring.
I read an article a long time ago that blasted the UL label for exactly that same reason, saying that the listing will be placed on an item that can be used for 100 different applications but the listing only applies to 5 of those applications.
As for defending the code or not, I am not defending the code, nor am I discarding it.
I believe there has to be a model to follow but, the codes "model" is helpful during construction.
I would not recommend using anything Less capable than the code recommends, but there are better options too.
I am sure that Extension Cord is not even considered in that code.
If you must run Extension Cord, put it INSIDE CONDUIT. This will do two things for you.
1.
When the extension cord insulation fails, it will help prevent buring down the RV
2.
The conduit will make it easier to replace the failing cables. You will thank yourself in the long run.
Much luck, choose well
cd |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:44 pm: | |
(B)een (T)here (D)one (T)hat |
...? ...?
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:24 pm: | |
So what makes an extension cord any different than any other type of cord>?
What I mean is, if I cut the ends off of an extension cord that is contractor grade - heavy duty commercial type stuff, how is it any different than other types of wire?
Are there any markings ? As long as the wire is UL listed, is it okay? |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 12:23 am: | |
[sarcastic humor mode]
Oh no! Once the manufacturer molds those ends onto the cord, it downgrades and permanently makes the cord no longer suitable for any other purpose, even if you cut them off! It's always an extension cord, inferior in every way to equivalent cord stock purchased for three times the price.
[/sarcastic humor mode]
If you want to buy some cheap extension cords to use to wire your bus, by all means do so. It's a free country, and you're the one who has to sleep in it. It would be wise to test it first to ensure it won't catch on fire in use.
To John that newguy...
I don't really put much stock into anecdotal stories as "research" because there are too many variables involved. I'm also willing to bet that the "welding cable" you claim was under your RV was probably the cheapest stuff the manufactuer could get his hands on. And I doubt it was truly welding cable at all, no matter what the manufacturer printed on the cable jacket.
When I'm talking about welding cable, I'm not talking about the stinger lead that comes with your typical Harbor Freight 120 volt buzz box. I'm talking about REAL welding cable, designated with a couple of zeroes to specify the conductor cross sectional area, and with a heavy rubber jacket around a 1/4 inch thick for insulation. This kind of cable is used with trailer mounted gasoline or diesel engine driven arc welders. REAL welding cable is made up of hundreds of fine strands of copper wire, and the insulation jacket is designed for the most severe service you can imagine, being dragged through jobsites and junkyards without damage, and being able to carry several hundreds of amps efficiently. Such cable is not cheap (a couple of dollars to tens of dollars per foot) but if you want a superior conductor you have to pay for it.
The advantage of using welding cable is that it is very flexible, far more than battery cable. You can thus use a larger capacity conductor and still be able to easily connect and disconnect your batteries. It can be routed through conduits and around corners with ease. The insulation is much thicker and impervious to most anything, including weather and acids. The cotton cords that run along with the conductors prevent the cable from stretching when under tension. All in all, to the coach owner it's worth the added expense. |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 12:42 am: | |
...?...?
Extension cord just isn't economical. If you get say, a 250 ft spool of quality wire, you can cut it to the length you need....i.e. 3 feet from the breaker to a switch, 5 feet from the switch to a light fixture. The extension cord has 3 conductors in one jacket. That works great if you need 3 conductors going to that junction but if you don't, what then? Slit the jacket? NO THANKS!
As I posted eariler, 500 feet of good quality #12 wire is about 9 cent a foot. I don't even look for UL list when I buy bulk wire.
Is the wire gauge you are using able to handle the load? Then you'll prolly be OK.
Bones |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 6:02 am: | |
Welding cably is not "tinned" ,
good marine battery cable may be (depending on supplier) and is also fine stranded.
Tinned lasts far longer if exposed to most anything.
FAST FRED |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 6:12 am: | |
The Extension cord all comes down to the insulation.
The conductors are usable in the proper guages. I would not use the factory attached plugs or sockets. They would heat up with load.
But the Insulation, even contractor grade, is soft to allow flexibility. This flexibility is what makes them for external use only. Never in a wall.
As I mentioned above, if you must use the extension cord type cable, plan on running conduit to protect the bus from fire when it fails and to make replacing faster.
I do not recommend Ext cord at all.
cd |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 8:29 am: | |
Your attitude Phil, is precisely what keeps prospective RV
buyers away from "home built" motorhome. The commercial
outfits make enough of a mess of things, and they attempt to
follow "rules" just as a CMA...
I posted a link to a one company that makes cable for welding
and for battery connections. Did you notice the coverage for the
difference in insulation? The welding cable is made to be flexible
to allow for the job and purpose; the battery cable is designed
for "permanent" application and to be used continually exposed
to the elements.
Home type, or any "extension" cord should not be routed
through enclosed places. I believe if you read any "caution" on
any container for any one of those made, you will read that
wording. As it is in a home, there can and likely will be, more
appliances attempted to be used than one originally planned.
Do you really think an "extension cord" is going to stay cool
under unexpected adverse conditions? Put it in an enclosed
wall or conduit, and you've raised the risk factor 100%.
Hell man, I ain't no engine-ear or have no sofistikated edukation,
but even -I- can see this problem. |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 8:37 am: | |
I think what you are really talking about here (as far as 120v house wiring) - is the difference between Romex and SJ cord - SJ cord should not be internally wired without being encased in conduit - Niles |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 9:47 am: | |
Extension cords are rated at a specific amperage for use in free air. As soon as you enclose it, the amperage rating would/could go down significantly.
Richard |
BrianMCI
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 9:48 am: | |
Okay, since the conversation has devolved this far, let me say that when it comes to 120v house wiring I wouldn't use extention wire anywhere but temporarily in an outlet!
The original question was in regards to using extention cord wire for 12v...
As a diesel mechanic of 25 years experience, I can safely say I have just about seen it all when it comes to DC wiring.
Using extention cord wire for light dc loads (so long as the insulation of the individual wires is plastic) and you follow Phil's testing proceedure for loads of 20 amps, ...AND you properly wire tie the ext cord in place, I see no reason extention cord can't be used in that capacity.
Brian |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 3:27 pm: | |
Egads... is that what the question was? |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 12:30 am: | |
John the newguy...
If you're concerned about resale, then you're in the wrong hobby. If your concerned that my opinions somehow reduce the value of your coach, then, oh well. My attitude is a positive one, and I have no desires to be the code enforcement officer of the bus conversion community. I'll give you the pros and cons of the various choices, the reasons why I recommend one solution over the other, but the ultimate decision is yours.
As far as extension cord goes, I have some 8 gauge four conductor extension cords which are designed for 3 phase 480 volt AC, which I would have absolutely no problem with embedding in a wall and fused for a 20 amp circuit. As it is, I plan to use them for shore power hookups. Should be handy if for whatever reason I have to park a hundred feet away from the nearest powerpole.
Oh, I know, just because at one point of its existance it was an extension cord means that it is forever condemned to be inferior to any other kind of conductor.
Hell, 12 gauge wire is nominally rated at 20 amps. If your extension cord stock is of quality construction it won't heat up any more than any other 12 gauge wire. My only concern (given the source) is the quality of the wire, hence my suggestion that such cord be tested to find out what its limits are, then fusing to a limit which gives a good safety margin.
Not everyone has a large bank account to do a Marathon or Music City Coaches style conversion with the best of everything that money can buy. I respect and understand that some members of the community do their thing on a shoestring. Rather than tell them to either do it my way or not do it at all, I prefer to offer pointers which will result in a safe and workable system.
Personally, I wouldn't use extension cords to wire my bus, but do remember I live in a place where I can get the wire I need for $1.25 a pound. For 12 gauge stranded wire this works out to something like 2 to 3 cents per foot. I'm actually going to be using mostly 10 and 8 gauge wire for low voltage circuits up to 20 amps because I believe that large safety margins are very good things. Not to mention the voltage drop of the wire becomes insignificant at that low a load factor. When I rewired my dump truck using larger wires like these, the results proved it was worth the added expense.
My philosophy is, if the wire I use is good enough for a 747, then it's plenty good enough for my bus. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 7:58 am: | |
Phil-
This is why this forum is so great. After arguing about the use
of extension cords for a day's worth of pixels, we arrive at
a final, one line conclusion:
"Personally, I wouldn't use extension cords to wire my bus" .
I think we all fully understand that there are some very hi-grade,
hi-tech "extension cords" that are fully capable of serving the
needs of conventional wiring for use in a simple RV.
All the techie banter aside.. concerning amps, watts, voltage
and insulator quality... We are still left with the problem of
easily tapping into a tri or quad twisted "extension cord" for
the addition of a circuit or locating a fault after the wire's been
installed.
Rolls of good quality wire of assorted color and gauge are
available nearly anyplace for very reasonable prices.
Phil, your one line summed it up for near all of us. |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 4:23 pm: | |
I would vote that staying away from extension cords would be wise. While I dis-like most rules, the "code" is still a good way to go (but not the only way). IF you plan to sell your coach later - code may be your only defense in a legal proceeding.
I believe the marine methods and wire types are good for a coach, but they are not included in the code (NEC). As such, while they are, in (IMHO) reality, good or better, they don't meet the standard.
By the way - the National Electrical Code is NOT accepted in all jurisdictions. Most of the localities that have an electrical code DO use the NEC, but there is no requirement to. In addition, they can change or choose not to accept parts as they wish. NEC is national as a guideline only. Since our coaches are not real estate, it is hard to find a jurisdictional authority - hence the saying - We do things "OUR" way. You decide.
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
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