| Author |
Message |
Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 1:07 am: | |
Out at the storage yard yesterday I changed the fifteen year-old oil in my new ’06. Nothing eventful dripped into the pan… no antifreeze or metal shavings, so that’s always good. By the time I got to the canister filter, daylight was fading, and I didn’t feel like firing up the noisemaker for a bit of light, so I tightened up everything blind. Big mistake...
I added six gallons of 40-wt. and then ran up front to hit the start (rear start has been disconnected for some reason). I was hoping to feather the start a little bit, but she cranked right off. In a flash I ran back to the engine to check for leaks. Boy did I have a leak! I hit the stop lever as fast as humanly possible. Two gallons of black and amber oil must have puked out onto the dirt.
Hopefully 30 seconds of basically dry-running the beast didn’t just take several years of life outta my DD. I had zero daylight and zero morale left at that point. So, I still need to ascertain the issues at the filter. Obviously I didn’t get the gasket on right, since the bolt sure was tight. It took a few tries to get the seal right on my first and only canister change on the Fishbowl. But that thing took an act of God to start it, so I had plenty of warning of the leak.
Now, I’m contemplating going spin-on for the new bus. Yeah, it's some $ for the adapter, and maybe $10 - $15 more for each filter. But, between the wasted oil (@ $8/gallon) and the possibility of damaging the engine (@ $$$$$$), I don’t know if the “cans” are worth it… at least with my “shadetree” skills.
I called around to Napa today, and no one could find a part # for the adapter I’ve read here that they make. I also called Stewart & Stevenson and Denver, only to be put on hold for 20 minutes. I eventually gave up. So now I’m hitting up you sage folks at BNO…
Anyone got any magic tips for the “cans” or would you go spin-on? I don’t think my engine can take another dry start if I have another seal failure. Also, can I get some oil up in the heads and nether regions of the block by pre-lubing it via some homebrewed gravity method? I feel like I finally got a good 8v71 and don’t want to blow it (literally).
Thanks!
Brian Brown
PD4106-1175
Longmont, CO |
Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 2:02 am: | |
Brian
I have used the canister type for 20 years and never a problem. Just use a small screwdriver to get the old gasket out and put in the new one. The filters I buy come with 2 gaskets so make sure you use the right one. Mine uses the flat one that is about 1/4" wide and fits in a groove so it should be impossible to put in the wrong one. Once you fill the canister up with oil to prevent a dry start hold it in place and tighten the center bolt without allowing the canister to turn. Hope this helps you. Bill |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 5:33 am: | |
Somehow I never learned the art of prefilling a canister with a bolt thru it, allways seemed to leak LOADS before I got it in place.
The spin on has no center hole so is great to change as it CAN be refilled (to lessen zero oil time on restart).
After the coach is run a while it may pay to change the oil out sooner than the usual milage (we use 7000 as that's the shortest in Da Book).
The oil change will get the most grunge IF you only change after a long , 5 or 6 hour + run.
This gives TIME for the detergents in the oil to get as much gunk back in suspension , and hopefully carry it out .
Spend the bucks for an oil sample kit , so you can begin a baseline for the engine.
FAST FRED |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:40 am: | |
be SURE you get ALL old gaskets out.. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:01 am: | |
Two gaskets come with the cannister filter-- a flat paper one and an "O" ring. The one you want to use is the flat paper. Like Bill says use a small screwdriver to get the old gasket out, then work the new gasket in making sure it is seated in the slot. When you put the cannister on, push up on the cannister with one hand while turning the bolt to get the threads started. Once the threads are started you just hold the cannister so it sits evenly on the base and tighten her down. That's all there is to it. Also, ALWAYS change the gasket-- don't try to reuse it even once because it will leak.
As far as converting to the spin on filter with an adaptor, those things work okay for a while then the paper gasket you normally change with the cannister will start leaking. Yes-- you have to use the paper gasket for the cannister filter to mount the adaptor! Personally I don't think the adaptor is worth it-- it is better to just change the filter housing itself to the newer type that uses a spin on than to put the adaptor on. Get one from a bus wrecking yard if you want to convert.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA
P.S. You did not damage your engine in any way when the filter leaked-- it has to run a lot longer than 30 seconds without oil pressure to hurt anything. |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
just another caution...I have found up to 6 gaskets up in that crack.. |
Vin (Billybonz)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 8:22 pm: | |
Someone ripped me a "new one" on another board for bring this subject up...you would think I would've learned a lesson but, oil changes are one of the reasons I want a prelube system. I can't get the canister filled with oil and installed without taking a bath in it. The last oil change I just installed the filter canister and turned the engine over a few times without starting it, then I grit my teeth and let er rip.
Bones |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 8:33 pm: | |
that's what I do....put filter on dry....have always done that and NEVER had a bearing failure..
rather than a pre lube system...I would choose to plug the block heater in for a little while ...Detriots are SOOO happy to start when they are warm....
did you find out why the leak ?? |
Jim Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:02 am: | |
Some filters can not be filled. The lube filter on a 4104 (6-71) is horizontal. Doesn't matter whether it's a cannister or a spin on, it can't be filled.
Really big engines need a prelube pump. Car & bus engines don't. Your Detroit will last around 500,000 miles without one. Most of us won't drive our bus conversion 1/5 of that.
Jim-Bob |
Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:12 am: | |
Well, I spent a good chunk of my Sunday afternoon, trying to get the canister filter to work, giving it the good old "college try" … and failed miserably.
Turns out that there was an old paper gasket still in there, which led to my original deluge. I used a paint scraper to painstakingly remove it. I put the new one in, got the can on, started it and it still leaked. I pulled it off again and discovered some bits of the old gasket stuck in the groove, keeping the new one from flattening out. This took about 30 minutes with an awl and scraper to get the last vestigial bits of 15 year-old gasket out of the groove.
With the new gasket now properly seated, I tried to get the canister back on the housing. And tried, and tried. For whatever reason, even though I'd done it three times before, I couldn’t get the bolt to go in the hole... at the same time I was holding up maybe fifteen pounds of steel canister, filter and about a gallon of oil. I even took the filter out and tried to bolt it up and it went in on the first try. I must have tried a dozen times with the filter in place, my arms straining and shaking each time. It seems that the spring became progressively stronger… or I just weaker. My fingers were raw from spinning the bolt. My hands are still shaking as I type this.
To me, this isn’t a fun way to spend time at the bus. I don’t really want to dread oil changes… or I might just delay them to my engine’s peril. My first experience with a big DD was on my MC8 and it’s spin-on filter took about five minutes to fill-up and screw on. I’ve got maybe five hours into this canister… and still no joy.
I admire you guys that can deftly bull one of these monsters on your bus… but I’m going to pony up the $ for the spin-on adapter to make oil changes as easy as they are on my car. I’ll filter and use the three gallons or so of wasted oil in my air filters. And chalk up my time spent to “lessons learned.”
Thanks for the advice and support.
Brian Brown
PD4106-1175
Longmont, CO |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 12:58 pm: | |
extra gaskets huh....somebody diagnosed that
glad you got her fishbowl....and yes...spin ons are VERY nice... |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 2:55 pm: | |
Brian: You are blaming the system for your failing to do it properly the first time. If you are still using the gasket you got with the filter you may never get it to seal. You have damaged the gasket by putting it on improperly. You need another new gasket. I am sorry you had so much trouble but you should never haver have the problem again unless you ae real slow learner. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 12:03 am: | |
Blue Velvet ain't no slow learner. Except when it comes to deciding which bus he wants. ;) |
Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 1:43 am: | |
Success!
Today I bought a spin-on adapter for my filter housing. A $44 part, and well worth it for me. It was a surprisingly easy, five minute job to convert. I'll do up a page of pics if anybody's interested.
The huge spin-on (Napa #1970) holds about a 3/4 gallon of oil. I spun her on hand-tight, cranked her off, and the pressure built up to 60psi right away. No leaks or drips. I'm a happy camper.
I'll readily admit I'm just too much of a wuss for those 15 pound canisters. The spin-ons are just sooo slick and easy.
Brian "Blame the System" Brown
p.s. thx for backing me up, Chuck. |
Peter E (Sdibaja)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 10:04 am: | |
OK... I went thru this here a couple of years ago and was not able to find an adapter. Still want to make the change... NAPA guys at 3 stores came up empty.
Can anyone give me the NAPA part numbers for the adapter?
Thanks, Peter |
Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 10:41 am: | |
Napa wasn't able to help me, either. They even called the national warehouse and couldn't track down a part or #.
I got mine at Stewart & Stevenson. Part is a Fram K3390. If you don't have an S&S nearby, you could probably set up an acct. and have one shipped to you... or try Luke.
FWIW, this part can't be found on Fram's site either. My docs. with the part say "A Bendix Company," so now that they're owned by Allied Signal, maybe it's not available anymore. That'd be a shame, because it's a nice, high-quality part.
Good luck,
Brian Brown |
Peter E (Sdibaja)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 12:57 pm: | |
Thanks Brian!
there is a S&S kind of near by in Corona, I never dealt with them but I will now.
Peter
http://www.ssss.com/Home/BranchLocations/NorthAmerica/California/Corona |
mel 4104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 1:52 pm: | |
i also was going to change to the new spin on but yesterday i stopped at a logging truck shop and the had a case of new sock filter that the shop foreman sold me the 12 filters in a sealed new box for $5 so i will be a while changeing over. |