| Author | Message | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: |
Thinking again and that means trouble. I have a 17.5KW genset with 12 T105s, 2500 watt Hart with built in charger (100amp). 12 volt system. I have been scratching my head on how to get more charging capacity as it takes forever to charge this bank of batteries. With this large generator I have lots of spare HP in almost all cases. So why not mount a 150 amp on the generator engine? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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the chevrolet diesels have 140 amp...you can get a 140 amp one wire G.M. alt. at autozone ...simple hook-up...hook the positive side of the battery to the lug on the back of alt....got it's own regulator...if the batterys need chargeing the alt. charges.. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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I think the limiting factor here is at the Heart inverter/charger. You can disable it's charger function and run a separate smartcharger of more capacity. Iota makes 110-powered chargers with up to 90amp output. You buy two of 'em and for $35 buy the IQ4-duplex smartcharge adapter, for a total of 180amps of smart battery charging off of TWO 110v legs. This site stocks the DLS-75 and can order the 90: http://www.solarseller.com/_iota_battery_chargers___battery_tender_battery_chargers__insto ck_and_ready_to_s.htm Note: you do NOT want a DLS series charger with built-in "smartcharging", because first they won't allow duplexing and second they don't support AGM/gel batteries. Dual 90s is about the most battery charging that I suspect you can get. | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
be very carefull that you vent your battries when you are charging them at a fast rate as the gas that is created makes a very explosive bomb, when you see what happens when a battery blows up and the damage it causeseven when using a 135 amp charger, so when you just parked and charging your batteries be sure to open the door to the compartment and let the air circulate. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
A larger alt powered charger will definatly get a faster charge to 90% full, but that last necessary 10% is slow ,,how ever you do it. Solar works great as its slow too. An Ample Power or Balmar 3 stage regulator is necessary to controll the alt (temp sensing) and proper charge curves if any increase in charging speed is desired. The one wire style is NOT suitable to a fast charge , the regulator there thinks its recharging a truck , not a large half dischaged set of deep cycles. FAST FRED | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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works for me  | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Gary, Basically you need more charging current with that huge battery bank. Jim Jim's suggestion of adding the Iota chargers is excellent but there is no reason to disable the charger you've got. So with the two 90 amp chargers added to your 100 amp you would charge almost 3 times as fast. The Iota site says there chargers can be parallelled. You might even go to 4 of them but watch your wire sizes. Each 90 amp Iota charger is only using 1210 watts from that huge generator so 4 of them is still only 1/3 of it's capacity. I'd contact Iota, I'm sure they can adapt the smart charge controller to handle the 4. I believe it's a simple matter of adding a 3 pole relay to the duplex controller. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Gary, Your battery bank has about 1200 amp hours of capacity. Most battery manufacturers will say 1 hour charging is ok for flooded cells. So you sure won't hurt the batterys even with 460 amps (4 of the 90 amp Iotas and the 100 amp inverter). It'd still take 1 1/2 hours to charge them from the half discharged state (as low as you should take them for long life). Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Ah. Yeah, Jerry is right, except let's add one caveat: if you're going to run the existing 100amp smartcharger too, you might want to run one or more Iotas as "dumb chargers" with no "smart capacity" at all and then use them in a completely manual mode. A single 90 on top of your existing 100 would help, or double 90s, or triple... In other words...with a battery bank as big as yours I'd assume you've got a good monitor panel on it. You would use the Iota(s) to "boost the charge rate" until you hit about 90%, then shut the Iota(s) down and let the inverter's smartcharger top it all off at a lower rate for maximum battery health. If you're in a hurry, you can run it up to 95% or so with the Iota(s) but that's not "best practices" I believe. I don't know how you could automate the Iota shutdown process at 90% or so. Here's a thought: if the inverter/smartcharger is one of the "highly programmable" types, you could maybe convince IT to shut down charging at 90% charge capacity...and maybe turn off the inverter's "smartcharge functions". In that event a duplexed Iota 75 or 90 pair with the "duplex smartcharger" could finish out the top 10% of charge properly, and that whole combination would be automated. You could run only two Iotas, as that's the max possible when "smartcharging" with the duplex-compatible smartcharge adapter. The Iota 45amp smartchargers are available at a very good price point. Two of those with a duplex smartcharge adapter would still be damned useful if "stacked" on top of the inverter/charger's 100amps. And if you still need more you could add more 45amp Iotas, pull the duplex smartcharge adapter and run them in series. Take a look at Iota prices and you may find the 45s have the best "watts per dollar" ratio as they're the most common and most widely produced. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Am I correct in thinking that two smartchargers tend to confuse each other? That's what my previous message above is based on... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The batterys will be brought up to the Absorbtion voltage by the charger(s). If chargers are too small the amperage output will not bring the batts to that V , so two units together may get to the voltage. ONLY after the charge V is enough will which ever is smarter begin to cut back on the amps. SO YES 2 alts or two batt chargers can work on a huge bank. You can easily spin a coach sized 300A alt with your size noisemaker , and that would be the fastest charge rate < IF you remove the imbecile stock regulator , and install a Smart unit, made to do deep cycle recharge in min time. Sometimes the Hog fellows are right , "Don't use Force, GET a BIGGER HAMMER! FAST FRED | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Is it possible to have two or more chargers putting out identical voltage? To increase charging current you have to increase voltage, and curent will only flow from the higher voltage unless you connect the chargers to separate batteries. Do the smart chargers somehow overcome this problem? | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Jim Jim, I wouldn't say they confuse each other, I'd say they may need to be 'synchronised'. After starting a charge cycle each 'smart charger' will deliver it's rated current(constant current) untill the voltage on it's output reaches the level chosen to switch from bulk to absorbtion, it will switch to constant voltage at that voltage for the 'absorbtion' phase of the charge cycle. Each will stay in the absorbtion phase for either a predetermined time or until the current drops sufficiently (there are two design approaches to ending the absorbtion phase. Obviously the voltage chosen to switch from bulk to absorbtion will vary among chargers, as will the end point chosen for the absorbtion phase. The only way to get minimum charge time would be to synchronise all the parallel chargers. No harm to chargers or batterys will occur, however, if they are simply connected and used. It'll just take longer to complete the charge as some of the units will 'back off' prematurely. BTW, from the prices on the site given above the 55 amp Iota @ $150 is the lowest cost/amp. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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"BTW, from the prices on the site given above the 55 amp Iota @ $150 is the lowest cost/amp." Ah. Yeah, you're right. There was another site somewhere that had the 45 as the "sweet spot". In all cases, don't buy any Iota that has an "integral" smartcharge function. Those can't deal with AGM/Gel batteries and they can't take the duplex adapter. (You might be able to run 'em in series though, dunno about that.) The standard Iota smartcharge adapter is only $25, the duplex is $35. I'm almost certainly going to go with an Iota just for the scalability. I can start with a single like the 55 and the standard smartcharge adapter, and if I need more get another 55 and the duplex smartcharger. Nothing else I've seen is as expandable down the road with such a low initial buy-in. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Jim, I as an electronics engineer (retired) apreciate the Iota as an elegant and economical charging solution with outstanding scalability. But they don't offer temperature compensation or true equalization (Trojan calls equalization charging at a voltage higher than absorbtion 15V + for 12 volt system) I'd use them but I have a more modest battery (4 L16's) of only 700 or so AH and a Trace SW2512 that'll deliver 2500 watts of charging power(over 200 amps at the beginning of charge and 175 amps at the beginning of the absorbtion phase). The inverter's charger is also temperature compensating and offers programable equalization voltage plus many more features. And I rarely use my generator for charging because I'm usualy not 'parked' that long but travel more and the 300 amp coach alternator does most of my charging and the inverter tops off the batterys when I plug in somewhere. If you don't yet have an inverter and must have a 12 volt system now is the time to buy an SW2512, they are out of production but still available. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Huh. No battery temp sensor available for Iotas? Sigh. Yeah, that IS a problem. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Oh and Jerry, the SW2512 is getting scarce. The replacement seems to be the RS/MS (RV and marine versions of the same thing): http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/inverter-charger.html Only 100a charge output BUT the surge ratings are way high... | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Jim, Look hard. The RS have only a 30 amp transfer switch. The 60 amp in the SW2512 allows all my circuits to be on the inverter. The SW2512 works out so well with a 7500 W generator it's sad they discontinued it. And I wonder about things like being able to 'suplement' a small shore cord (I can run a 20 amp load on a 15 amp shore cord with the batterys suplying the 5 amps). If I couldn't get an SW2512 I'd opt to convert the coach to 24 volt and use an SW4024 just to get all the features. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Ah. Ohhhhkay. Hmmmm. Are Outbacks any better? -------------- I'm also considering getting a lower-grade but still decent modified sine/charger like the (yuck) DR or better yet a Heart Freedom series to run "cheap stuff" (and high loads like AC while going down the road) off of and get a 600w pure sine mounted inside the coach for high-end electronics (computer, sat. internet, etc.). Total cost combined would be WAY less than either an SW2512 or Outback. Or...what about the Prosine 2.0 or 2.5? | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
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Jim, I do'nt know about outbacks. Prosines use a different method of making sine waves, they are much lighter but don't tolerate motor loads and surges near as well as the Trace SW's and don't offer many features like 'suplementation' generator autostart etc. The motor loads like AC are what really needs the better wave shape. Motors will run much hotter and waste all the energy in the harmonics hence consuming more watts. Also anything with a transformer like microwave ovens will be way less efficient on a poor wave form. Things with switch mode supplies like PC don't care. I had a mod sine inverter charger in a class A stick and staple before I learned about busses and it made so much RF noise that it should have been sold as a TV jammer. I know of no way to duplicate the features and flexibility of the SW at any price, that's why I'd swap the stator in my coach alternator and use a 24 volt regulator with the coach alternator only connected to my 24 volt house battery and run a Vanner equalizer to the 12 volt coach batterys So I could use the SW4024 if I couldn't get an SW2512. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 |
