| Author | Message | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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http://www.grigsby.us/ | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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YUK.................a flim flam man | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff, Yours is a long and sad story without a happy ending. And it doesn't appear to be over, either! I'm so sorry this is happening to you and I would like to help. Please ask your counsel if you legally have free and clear access to your coach from Walker's, making sure you are not bound by any contract to leave it there and that there is no mechanic's lien (or similar) on your coach. Go to the bus and take several pictures of both the exterior, interior, engine compartment, slideout (if possible) and driver's dash area. Email me at bossnut@busnut.com with all the pictures and a description of your bus and an asking price. I'll put an ad online on BNO at no charge to you. Hopefully, we can assist in both mitigating any further loss to you, provide a quality starter project for an interested conversion hobby enthusiast and show you that your experience with Walker's is the exception, not the rule. Please let me know, at your convenience. Best regards, Ian Giffin www.busnut.com | ||
| Jack Gregg (Jackinkc)
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It sounds like your bus is still titled in his name. If so, ask him to transfer title to your name as an act of good faith. Jack In KC Not a lawyer | ||
| R.C.Bishop Rating: N/A |
Geoff...really a sorry story....I offer my help in the only way I know how to be of benefit in this....PRAYER for you and your family. Can't cite the exact location in scripture, but the LORD says....."vengeance is mine...."If you are a believer, remember Psalms 3: 5&6. Gets me thru a lot of circumstances with peace of mind.... and usually a pretty good ending to a situation I had probably determined to be ill fated. ....and if you will post his email address, maybe we can get something started here. I believe the Truckers call it a convoy.......;)  ....how 'bout it guys and gals??? FWIW RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| mclough Rating: N/A |
geoff and family, wow what a story!!!, it sounds like your money went to pay for someone elses coach to be built and so on. business gets slow and you take deposit money to cover other costs and when your coach comes due all money is gone. its like a pyramid scheme that goes awary until it all comes crashing down. i pray that you get an attorney now and be first in line to try to recover anything. especially if coach isnt in your name. GOD bless morgan P S IAN that is a nice gesture on your part. ty | ||
| H3 (Ace)
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Personally if it were me, I think I would now be considered part owner and just go in one day un-announced and start conducting business the way it should be! I don't think sam would call the law since it appears he is running from them anyway so it's either, YOUR in the business or YOUR in the business! You DO have a vested interest in the company by now with all the money you handed over! Why not just do a take over? Look at it this way. If he goes to jail your out anyway so why not just go in and get what you can to recoupe your investment! I know I would! Ace PS If you need any help in any way I would be more than happy to! Just give me some notice so I can make arrangements onmy end! | ||
| Ed (Ednj)
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Wait, I'm cofused. This is Cindy and Andrew Grigsby, not Geoff and Sherry's Right? Geoff with the '82 GMC RTS 40'? Anyhow sad story. | ||
| DebDav (Debdav)
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I visited Sam 2 years ago. I left with a strange feeling. I have been following various threads on his then current condition. This completes the circle. Someone, somewhere needs to stop this man from advertising on ebay and elsewhere. If the PA attorney general doesn't come down on him, someone should. He has caused heartache and misery in FL and now PA. This is not right. | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
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Geoff sorry to hear about your experience with your bus, everyone in bussing is not like this, since i started my conversion, i sweated a few BB's but so far everyone has been really good to me, at one point i thought i was being overcharged but it turned out it was one of the problems of doing business on the internet, i was talking about apples and one of the buddies was talking about oranges. I believe i would hire someone to haul my bus out of there as soon as i could!..........Pat | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I don't allow Active-X or popups witb my browser, so I can't read the story... Can someone tell dummies like me, what's going down? | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Ed gueses it right, it's not me folks! I just posted the link without comment. You people are great with your support, and Sam Walker needs to go back to jail! --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Sorry to hear about your problems. Some people do not have what it takes to run a business. I believe Sam Walker has had some good ideas in the past, though not always well implemented in actual construction. But ideas and handlling other people's money are unrelated. Any time you are handing anybody money as deposit for work to be done you are at their mercy and your only protection is their integrety. Some people cannot keep their hands out of the till until they have earned the money. That leads to a Ponzi scheme type business. SAM, DIDN'T YOUR DADDY TEACH YOU ABOUT HONOR? If Mr. Walker had any integrety left he would abandon the bus business. Mr. Walker, it is time to quit. Finish the buses you have and bow out. You have repeatedly mishandled many peoples money. Let's not hold our breath. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Everybody's giving condolences to Geoff, but I think this is not his own story? I've been following the Grigsby saga for a couple years now -- sorry to see it happen. Also sorry they did not come to this forum (or MAK's) first, since the advice regarding Walker on both has been unwavering and consistent: stay far, far away. I have never had any personal dealings with Sam Walker (and I hope to keep it that way), but I have more than a passing familiarity with the man, and have researched him thoroughly. This is because I moderate a Neoplan-specific board, and he has steadfastly and unscrupulously advertised himself as carrying a non-existant Neoplan inventory, even going so far as to post photos on his web site of a large number of Neoplans (at Neoplan's own facility, no less) implying that this was his own inventory. So periodically, folks pop up on my board asking about Walker Coach and their Neoplans. Thankfully, none of those inquiries (AFAIK) resulted in a contract with Walker. I hope the Grigsbys get some redress, but I doubt it. There is a long line of folks ahead of them, including quite a few who dealt with Walker in Florida. BTW, JTNG -- I did not need any funny stuff to read their site on my browser. I don't use IE, so ActiveX isn't applicable at all. I wonder what browser you are using and/or what settings you have that prevent it? Are you getting an error, or does nothing at all happen when you click the MotorCoach link? The site is Flash -- perhaps you don't have Flash installed (which is nothing like either a popup or ActiveX, or even Java)? Flash is a free plug-in for any of the major browsers (though all the big ones come with it pre-installed these days). -Sean | ||
| Mike (Busone)
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JTNG Send me your email address and I will copy and paste the story to you. busone1@yahoo.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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For JTNG and anyone else who can't load the motorcoach frame, here is the direct link: http://www.grigsby.us/motorcoach/motorcoach.html -Sean | ||
| John Rigbyj
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Well its proved to be true what everyone said about Walker Coach. Very Sorry it happend to the Grigsby family. It happend here in Liberty Texas.The conversion company went belly up, and lots of coaches were tied up in the Mechanics lean. I would go down there Like Ian said Try to have him sign the title over. Take a trailor and pick up the gen set, wheels, anything that should be with the coach ( per the contract ) and bring it all home or store somewhere else. | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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Geoff, I erred, initially, in thinking this story was yours, not the Grigsby's. However, if they should drop in to this web site and see my previous message, my offer still stands. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| John thata newguy Rating: N/A |
Ok.... Here goes: I've read the info. It appears that the original engine rebuild price had to be changed since the engine was not the one designated. The original roof raise had to be done again to revised specs The addition of a sliding window and additional framing. The customer gave the builder a bad check. The addition of a diesel generator not originally negotiated. The addition of a swing-arm assembly for the genset not originally negotiated. The addition of a surround dash, not originally negotiated The addition of a 12 volt system not originally negotiated. The customer instructed a different time-frame of time insensitive consequence. The customer asks for the bus to be sold at auction. The customer did not want the bus, but wanted the money from the sale of the bus. =================== I don't think the Grigsby family has much chance in this situation. The Walker company did it's best to accommodate the Grigsby family. A bounced check from Grigsby added to the problems. The Walker company did it's best to accommodate Grigsby in spite of it's own problems of errant accounts. The Grigsby account was an additional default deposit (bad check) to be considered; it should be considered, since the amount is not minor and it is of sufficient amount to be of great concern to a company already disabled by defaulted checks from it's customers. My suggestion would be to negotiate the price of repairs/conversion and get the coach back. | ||
| Dan F Rating: N/A |
I agree with you Sean walkers web site does list photos for all kinds of Neoplans from neoplans location in honeybrook PA. those buses are no longer there because Neoplan closed there facility some time ago and turn that location into a parts dist only. I know because its only 15 miles from me and I do business there all the time. I purchased the last two buses that they had down there two 1996 citiliners 6 months ago and already resold them. I discovered this one day when I went on Walkers site to browse his site and i noticed the pics of Neoplans facility and I said to myself this guy is a fraud. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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JTNG, Go back and read it again. No where does it say that the Grigsby's check bounced -- Walker had claimed to have received a bounced check from *another* customer. (Even this I don't believe, knowing what I know about Walker. More likely, a check to him was stopped -- if even that much is true.) Also, all the items you mentioned were, indeed, negotiated. The revised contract is spelled out in the story. I did not read into any of this that the Grigsbys wanted the extra work done for free. Their story is consistent with many, many other stories from Walker customers (now plaintiffs) in both Florida and Pennsylvania. And, for anyone who has *not* actually followed the story for a couple years, Andrew is true to his word -- he had said nothing but positive things about Walker even as his project went rapidly down a rathole. Even after things went completely bad, he said nothing at all for almost a year. FWIW. -Sean | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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I have to agree w/Sean; I doubt that Mr. Grigsby will ever see any financial recovery. Unfortunately he entered his agreement before the airing of the recent tv show touting and featuring the infamous Sam Walker; otherwise he could have considered going after their "deep pockets" for pandering him to the viewing public. As a matter of course, I think he needs to obtain both legal and physical custody of his property, or at least put some effort into that pursuit. Quite frankly, and based solely on what I read in his posting on his site, he has been far too "laid back" and to the point of extreme complacency. If he gets his property and title to it, he will just have to assess his situation a little more and go from there. My take is that he does not have title and therefore he cannot legally offer it for sale in an attempt at partial recovery until he does have title. On the other hand, if Sam Walker reacts as I well suspect he may to a demand for title and property and refuse the demand, Mr. Grigsby may well have a case to present for criminal prosecution on several grounds. I also would not overlook the sidekick Nick, who made respresentations on behalf of the company and who undoubtedly made at least a few bucks out of the deal , hopefully enough to qualify it for the monetary threshhold of a felony. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Dan F -- Please email me off-list... I could use a friendly contact within shouting distance of NeoPart! -Sean swelsh (at) stanfordalumni (dot) org | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Sean- My mis-read. It wasn't Grigsby's check that bounced, but another customer's... .... It sounds like the Grigsby's are caught up in the financial problem of the Walkers. But the Walkers have offered their best proposal of a resolution. It's up to the Grigsby's to accept or decline. If it were me, I'd try to negotiate the best and take what I can. It sounds like the Walkers trusted more than they should have and ended up on the wrong end. Grigsby was just a customer that was there at the wrong time. Taking this to court wouldn't net more than can be afforded, than if amiably settling out of court, Take the coach and run. | ||
| John Rigbyj
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I hear you should always try to settle, before getting the lawyers involved. Wise advise Id say if you look at how this countries run. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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HERE GOES NUTTIN - the Grigsby's should IMMEDIATELY take the serial number and any other vehicle or ownership info they have and locate the state of current registry - ascertain the current "owner", if other than Walker - contact that owner to see to whom it is "owned" by and/or whom it was "sold" to and ask for copies of any paper work related to the above - it would be my contention that $6500 of the original deposit was the 'purchase' of the bus (but I have not seen the actual contract) - most state motor vehicle laws require 'dealers' (which he is) to hold the title in their possession when offering a vehicle for sale (which he did) and to transfer title to the new owner within so many days - This is based on a contract with wording that would some how specify the purchase of the vehicle and then additionaly a contract for work performed upon the purchased vehicle - If the contract called for purchase of a semi-converted vehicle (as a completed end product) then state law will most likely have a statute relating to contract time default (if, as indicated, the completion date was not specified in the final contract) in either their MV codes or their Uniform Commercial Code - After compiling this info - contact the State Attorney first to see if they can file any criminal charges (for free), if not contact the State Consumer Protection Agency to see if they can do anything (free also), if not contact a QUALIFIED attorney in Walker's area (cheaper for you to travel than to pay the attorney to). It would be wise and thoughtful of them to contact the State Motor Vehicle Division to notify them of possible violations of the above codes - the State may want to make a visit and audit their records and they have the ability to snap his license to operate at least temporarily - I wish them Good Luck - but as stated above it looks grim - wish I could be more help , but I am unfamiliar with their state codes - Niles | ||
| ansole Rating: N/A |
Unfortunate that there are still some on this thread who are standing up for Walker, even after years of publicity on this and other boards. | ||
| Alton Gattis (Fiddlearound)
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Doesn't Walker advertise on this board? (Editor's Note: Alton, no he doesn't.) | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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Ansole, I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but if you, or anyone, want to know why your messages have been removed from the bulletin board system, email me - don't discuss it on the bulletin board system... that's not what it's here for. My email address appears in several hundred places on this web site, including the link, below. Ian www.busnut.com bossnut@busnut.com | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Sean- I never said I thought the Grigsbys wanted the extra work for "free", but when a customer changes the plans after the work has either begun or has finished, it takes twice as long and twice as much work to make the changes. Since Grigsby requested the changes after the fact, the time to complete the job can no longer be considered to be of the essence; the date for completion is no longer a factor, legally. There were too many changes of major consideration to hold feet to the fire. Grigsby would be better off retaining an attorney to do battle, since Walker may be compelled to file for bankruptcy. It would be best to be on "the list" ahead of time. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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JTNG: My take was that a lot of the additional and new work was covered by a "consideration" of the additional advance money that was paid. In other words, the 10k (as I recall) actually had a little more than face value to the new deal, or somewhat like "for bailing your ass out what are you going to do for me in addition to what this 10k is buying"? Sam Walker didn't get his reputation reading bibles and the most regrettable part is that Grigsby goes down in the books as just another chapter. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
James- Agreed. But knowing when and how to cut your losses has always been a problem big enough to require a lawyer's assistance. The Grigsbys should now turn it over to a professional, before they lose it all. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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I don't disagree with his need for professional help; he obviously, just my humble assessment, needs it. There certainly is enough money involved to warrant professional involvement. The problem I see is Walker's financial condition. As such, a lawyer could end up as throwing more money into a bottomless pit. On the other hand, who knows, ole' Sam may have some assets that are unknown and not obvious. | ||
| Kat Man
Rating: N/A |
Have you guys looked at the prices quoted by Walker. Raise roof with new front and rear caps - $7000.00. 13' slide - $9100.00. Lowest price for a slide installation I've ever seen, especially for a bus you can't put a slide into. I feel sorry for the Grigsbys but the term "Buyer Beware" should have kicked in. Kat Man | ||
| Sojourner (Jjimage)
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It sad to hear that Sam Walker is STILL at it again! My condoled with Grigsby family in their loss of investment. This is no surprise! Worst still the old Walker’s Arcadia customers of 5 & beyond years ago have not yet receive their money in combine of over $200,000. Most all of them end up rusted & scrapped, My hope Sam Walker was still in jail to protect future customers hurting. My question how we as bus conversion owner can keep this from happening again while Sam Walker is on loose? We try to warn on board whenever someone mentions Walker Coach Co. but still someone get hurt. Due to whatever loop hole laws that let Sam get scotch free from long-jail term, there got to be a system to notify all states of his pass business practice with customers. The SAD part is there is no way to reclaim full or partial funds back because of lawyer fees & minimum investment in tools to amount a fraction of repayment. Maybe this time investigator will reopen old case along with this one to put Sam Walker out of business for good. Hope this time that some-how will put a stop from bleeding customer’s investment funds & fraud. Sojourn for Christ, Jerry | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
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I wish someone would report Walker to www.ripoffreport.com Maybe it would save someone the grief the Grigsbys are facing. Bones | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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aren't the Grigsbys' the ones that went to Wally World ??? | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
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No, that was the Griswalds in their family truckster. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I remember their dog "snots", Vin.... | ||
| Vin (Billybonz)
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yep....prolly kept up for a few miles...tuff mutt *sniff* | ||
| Mike (Busone)
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Snots was not the dog that Clark took for a drive. Snots was Cousin Eddies dog from "Christmas Vacation." Clark took aunt Edna’s dog for the "drive." That movie would have been much better if they were driving an old bus instead of that car. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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good ol' aunt Edna...dead & left in her son's backyard,wrapped in a wet blanket... classic movie....remember..."I'm so hungy I could eat a gas station sandwitch..." | ||
| Mike (Busone)
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I love cousin Eddie in Christmas Vacation. His RV or as Clark calls it the "tenement on wheels." Then the next morning when Eddie is dumping the black tank in the storm sewer. "The shitter was full" | ||
| Andrew Grigsby (Andrewgpa)
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First I would like to thank everyone for the kind words and advice. The links on our site are Flash links but for the people that cannot access our regular site I have setup a site with plain html and you should be able to access this site without any problems. I have only tested the sites in Microsoft’s Internet Explorer and Mozilla’s FireFox. The link to the html site is http://www.grigsby.us/motorcoach/adisclaimer.html. I have just come up on this BBS today and wish I had known about it before today, but hopefully someone else can be helped by this posting so they do not end up in the same situation we are in now. We are still weighting out or options and I’m consulting with an attorney. I will continue to add to our story until the end, so please feel free to check back on the site. I will try and answer some of the questions about the conversion that I have read on this posting and clear up a few of the concerns. When the conversion started I devoted a section of our site specifically to the conversion process and updated it every time I visited Mr. Walker. I posted the progress and pictures along the way. (I have removed this section of the site) I have never received title to the bus because it was purchased directly from Walker and he told me I would get title to the bus once it is finished. He told me in order to have it titled as and RV he had provide prove specific changes along the way of the conversion process to the state so that it could be titled as an RV. I don’t have bad things to say specifically against Mr. Walker the story I have told has to do with the business dealings that I have had with Mr. Walker. I truly believe Mr. Walker had good intensions but he can not follow through on them. I knew about some of the problems that Mr. Walker had in Florida when this started but did not know the extent that I know today. Mr. Walker addressed my concerns when we started this and he made me feel comfortable to trust that he could finish our bus. I do believe that people can run into problems in their life, but also believe you use the experience from these problems not to let them happen again. This is the though that I had when we went into this that we would not be a casualty of a past problem. I have had problems in my past but I used that experience to make sure the same problems never happened again and I will always believe that most people have done the same. We did make a change along the way with our roof being raised and made a change to this. When I inspected the height of the first raise I did not like the height so I had them raise it higher. This did extend the first delivery date of the bus and I completely understood it and had not problem with it. Mr. Walker has never received a bad check from me it was from another customer. I don’t know if he actually had a check returned to him or not I did not ask to see the check. I took him at his word that he did. When Mr. Walker contacted me in December and asked for my financial help I was more than happy to help (I believe in helping anyone that needs it and I’m able to provide it). He told me he needed help to finish covering payroll for the week. When I showed up to talk to him about the money he asked for, we started talking about the bus and tossed some more ideas around. He had a new MCI bus in his shop that he was using to mold the front and rear caps with, so we went inside of the bus so I could see it and I made a comment on the dash, he told me they could build me a dash like that one if I wanted it. He also told me they had finished securing a source for their generators and he could sell me 12.5 kw generator with a quite box enclosure for $7,200. By the time my visit was finished Sam told me if I could give him $10,000 the next day he would provide me with the generator $7,200 and the dash and 12 volt wiring and switches at no cost. This is how the other items came about and this happened on 12/5 and 12/6 of 2003. Since all of these changes happened I asked Mr. Walker to sign a new purchase agreement to include all of the changes that has happened and also since the initial delivery date of the bus had passed. I showed back up on December 6, 2003 with the new agreement and a $10,000 check. He told me he needed to review the new Purchase Agreement and he would return it to me. On December 13, 2003 Mr. Walker executed the new Purchase Agreement. I did not put a specified delivery date of the bus in the new Purchase Agreement because I did not want them to be distracted with the pressure of having to take short cuts to finish the bus by a specific date. I did ask for a time frame verbally and I was told by Mr. Walker they would have it finished by the end of May 2004. My last visit to Mr. Walkers place was in February of 2004, I stopped making trips up to his place because of work. When I called on June 2 to arrange for me to pick the bus up I was told the bus had not been worked on since my last visit because they misunderstood what I had told them about our summer vacation that year. Walker was told that we were taking a trip to Germany in August and that we would not take a trip that summer in the bus because of it. He said he misunderstood this to mean I did not need the bus and they would have longer to work on it. This made me upset for the first time, after thinking long and hard about this I made a visit on June 22nd to see about getting our money back on the bus since it was not finished. Now keep in mind our bus is still not back on the production line being worked on. I asked Sam for our money back and he told me he did not have it to give back but he could put the bus up for sale for us. I told him I would talk to Cindy about this and get back with him. This is the first time it came up to sell the bus. On June 30th I called Sam and told him to sell the bus and get our money back. This is 1 month after it was suppose to be finished. I don’t think that Walker tried to accommodate me because my bus had not had any work done on it since February 2004. If I had my preferences I would still like to get our bus because my family loved traveling in our motor home when we had it. But currently it is now almost 1 year from the date we were suppose to get our bus and it has not been touched and it has not been posted any where for sale. But Sam still does not have the money to give back and he still keeps telling us that he can put it up for sale. My wife is very upset with me because I still want to believe that Sam will finish the bus and deliver it to us. I don’t know why I want to continue to believe in Sam except that I find it hard to believe that someone can do another person like this, I think there is good in everyone. As much as I hate to admit it I may be wrong in this case. I hope that I have cleared up a lot of questions and concerns but I would encourage anyone to read the entire story on our website and better informed about Mr. Walker before you choose to deal with him. Thank you for the time and space that you have provided for me to tell our part of the situation. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Well, Sam did finish some buses. Maybe you can get him to finish yours. Your probably have lost all your money unless he does anyway. But if you don't have the title, it may be siezed to pay other debts. | ||
| bruce king
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grigsby has apparently taken down his website. http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=grigsby+walker+coach&ei=UTF-8&u=www.grigsby.us/motor coach&w=grigsby+walker+coach&d=F1998FC226&icp=1&.intl=us | ||
| bruce king
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On a related note, I'm going to point out that deleting negative information on any vendor is doing a disservice to the users of this board, and to bus conversion fans in general. Notice that there are NO negative messages regarding walker on this board or in the archive other than this current thread. Opinions, positive or negative, are what is most valuable here, in my opinion. Deleting threads detailing problems is not helpful to folks hoping to avoid the same pitfalls in the future. Reference this discussion where the archived conversation that is salient to the question is no longer here: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/9000.html | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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That is what happens when lawyers get involved. | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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Bruce & all, Firstly, Grigsby's web site and his whole story are still online. Follow the link from his original message, above. Next, while I don't disagree with you about deleting negative information on any vendor doing a disservice to viewers, you don't make a distinction between slander, libel and valid documented evidence and how they apply to anything that has been deleted. Don't know about you, Bruce, but I put my balls out here on the table every day by hosting this bbs - anyone who has ever done the same, knows the feeling. But I'm also not a complete idiot. I know when to take down messages that can eventually come back to chop those well exposed balls of mine off. Thanks, I like my house. Another major problem is that as soon as a company gets a bad rep, it just starts up under a different name to go on screwing the public. The only solution is to do our best to promote the good guys in this business: Bonagura, Gregory, Grabhorn, to name a few. That way, viewers will see that there are many dedicated, fair, knowlegeable people with whom they can deal. The odd hobbyist is going to miss all this information and, maybe, get burned somewhere. But as long as you and I come to this kind of a venue - BNO, Kadletz, Good, etc., the best we can do is to spread the word about the good guys and hope viewers of these bulletin boards do their due diligence. To his credit, Grigsby has been very careful with his words, both on his web site and on this bulletin board. Let's say it is a "valid caution". He hasn't said he mistrusts anyone, but offers many suggestions that will assist his fellow hobbyist. Let's leave it at that and not bother to analyse the motivation for putting a message on a bbs or that of deleting one. I'm sure we can all read between the lines without causing red flags to pop up over something that is said which may be construed as inapproriate. This thread will stay in the archives. Please bookmark it. Regards, Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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....... even the balls part ? (Editor's Note: Niles, I will occasionally check to see if they are still attached... to the Archives, that is!!) | ||
| bruce king
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Ian, with respect to your liability, you have more liability by editing and allowing some, deleting others, than you would if you allowed either all or none. By deleting entire messages you are implicitly (explicitly, maybe) approving them. By editing their content you are implicitly (explicitly?) approving their content. The salient issue here is the same one that caused prodigy, the sears-backed online venture quite a bit of money. their online forums were also edited, and they lost the ruling because they edited -- the judge ruled that the editing meant approval. Compuserv was sued after that and won based on the fact that the messages on compuserv were 100% user content; You have protection under the common carrier provisions that protect telephone companies, yahoo message boards and other public forums. If I call someone and plot a crime with them using QWEST (tm) or other telephone lines QWEST (tm) is not a party to that crime, any more than the post office, or the owner of a telphone pole I post a note on. Check it out with your atty; prodigy case was in the late 80s -- 88 or 89. Compuserv case was either 90 or 91. Why do I know? I authored and distributed a BBS program and had some 50 sites running at at the time; i followed the cases because it made a huge difference in how I operated the message boards at the time. The compuserv case was a huge relief for me. If you're worried about liability, best to check out the precedents that have been set. Editing/deleting is not the protection you seem to think it is. | ||
| bruce king
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I can't figure out how to edit my last post, but here's backup for the points I made. Read section 3. http://www.cyberlibel.com/liabilit.html | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
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Bruce, The article you have captioned shows that there is already jurisprudence in Canada which holds that the defendant (me) in the defence of innocent dissemination will succeed. The question on cyberlibel is whether what is said on this bulletin board "violates the First Amendment or the common law of libel, or civil law". That it has not been established whether a web site owner is a publisher or distributor, is also an interesting concept in this article: "If they (web site owners) attempt to exercise some editorial control and remove or prevent publication of defamatory material, they may be categorized as a publisher resulting in possible liability as a publisher. If they do nothing, they may escape liability as a publisher but incur liability for negligence, copyright infringement and possibly criminal prosecution". Based on the above, when you say editing/deleting is not the protection I seem to think it is, it absolutely IS the protection I think it is. Since there have only been two recorded cases of cyberlibel to date, I think I will carry on my course and hope I'm not the third! Coincidentally (or not), you have selected an exceptionally well written article from an expert libel lawyer who practices in downtown Toronto, about a 45 minute drive from here. I think I might retain him. If not for my balls, maybe at least for my house. Thanks for your comments! Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I wonder if "Lola" getting turned on by all this kind of guy talk...... It's less of a legal entanglement to simply delete an entire post, or thread, than to edit one. The process of editing indicates that the editor is attempting to modify a comment to suit a specific need. The question of what "that need" might be, is where the entanglement come into play. Deleting the post or thread only indicates the editor does not desire to become part of any legal action. I've always been cautious reading anyone's comments that suggest any illegal or unscrupulous activity by another. There are two sides of every story, and no two cases are the same. After reading all of Grigsby's comments regarding the changes, it doesn't surprise me at all, that the job has overrun. To raise a roof, then have to cut and raise it again involves time.... big time. In my opinion, a court would probably side with Mr. Walker. Mr. Walker is providing two options to Mr. Grigsby - The bus completed as planned, or sold on consignment for Mr. Grigsby. Most courts would see that as a gesture of good faith and an attempt to correct the situation amiably. Demanding one's money be returned as the only option, after having caused the business to make numerous time sensitive changes of original plans, generally will not be looked at as a viable and fair option. Mr. Grigsby should retain an attorney. If there's any possible chance Mr. Walker is considering filing bankruptcy, any claim should be filed prior to that. I think the attorney will tell Mr. Grigsby to allow Mr. Walker to finish the job, and having Mr. Walker provide a definite time frame for that completion. I've had my own share of contractor problems in the past, and dealings with service providers, mechanics, etc... that could have ended poorly. In both Long Island and Massachewshits, the business must be given a chance to resolve the problem in a fair and timely manner. If a customer refuses to allow the business a chance to "make things right", the court will resolve in a manner that will provide both parties with compensation - as decided by the court.. I wouldn't go that route unless I had to. Give them a chance to do what's right. If they fail that, you would then have a stronger case against them.... including costs for all your lost time, legal fees, etc.. | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
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JTNG I really think at times you are to...... The old saying goes you can not get blood from a turnip. That turnip has no blood. Take what you can get and run. | ||
| bruce king
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bankruptcy laws are federal -- they don't vary by state, so I'm safe in saying that a pending lawsuit will not protect your interests any more than they are with a documented claim -- you're an unsecured creditor in either case, with an argument that you have a security lien on a particular bus. If you manage to get a judgement before the guy files bankruptcy you're senior to unsecured debt, but in the case of a business with financial difficulties, it's likely that banks or other finance organizations have secured claims in all of the interesting assets. If the guy can't make payroll its unlikely theres a pot of cash around. For the amount, $30-40k, you might be better off settling for 10K and be done with it than risk getting nothing in the event of a bankruptcy. i'm not an attorney; consult your own legal, yadayada -- but i have spent a bit of time chasing people for debts. heck, got a judgement against a woman in tx for, um, $520,000.00. It's still out there. haven't collected a cent on it. Anyone wanna buy the debt of Joye King? | ||
| Andrew Grigsby (Andrewgpa)
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John It appears that you have missed part of the story. The only structrual change that I made to the original plans was the roof raising. I have pointed this out in the posting on this BBS and on my web site, I expected this to delay the delivery and I had not problem with this. Where the problem comes from is that my bus has not been touched since February 2004 and continues to sit off the production line even as of today (Apr 26, 2005). The raising of the roof was completed before they moved it off the production line. I feel I have given Mr. Walker ample time to at least start working on the bus again, but when it continues to sit and not be touched this tells me he has no intensions to finish it. This is why I have demanded that I have my money refunded to me. I have been told time and time again since July of 2004 that the bus would be put up for sale on eBay and this has not been done. So the big question comes up now DO I CONTINUE TO TRUST in someone that has continualy not done what was promised and accept another statement from them that it will be done and possibly end up back in the same position months down the road? | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Get the title. I have found, from years of being too patient, that in situations like this once work stops it seldom resumes. Just my opinion. If you cannot get the title, forget the bus. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Andy- I said it, Bruce said it, and a few others said it also...... Hire an attorney. Nothing I have to say should be given any more weight than anyone else's comments...... My opinion? I read your story here. A "roof raise" is not an easy task. For the home converter it's easier, than it is for anyone in business that will be legally responsible for any structural failures later in time. The business must also incur insurance costs, labor costs and all the other costs a home converter doesn't worry about. To request that a completed roof raise done to the original contracted specifications, be disassembled and redone to new specifications, is an overwhelming proposition regardless of new charges.. Those of us that are in the process of converting a coach can appreciate that amount of detailed work involved. With a "roof raise" comes changes in wiring, interior and exterior panel sizes, interior wall height considerations and changes, interior doors, cabinet size changes, front and rear caps, plumbing vent changes, etc etc etc.. You mentioned numerous other modifications to the original contracted job.... If you take this to court, all those changes will weigh heavily to the side of the contractor that had initially been nearly on schedule. Once you break the original contract, all bets are off. If Walker ignored your requests to resolve the matter, he would be looked at as being irresponsible; he did not ignore you. He offered a resolve and included a few "perks". Walker claims there was a misunderstanding on the time frame for completion and apparently set your job aside to push a few others ahead. That's his way of attempting to hold his head above water. He also asked you to make a decision. Sell, or finish. You told him to sell it to redeem your money? Walker would have to finish the conversion, if you expect to get anything out of it. And that's going to take time. For any business that's floundering, to set aside revenue producing work, is fiscal suicide. If I were in your situation, I would talk to Walker again personally. See what the conversion looks like and how much more is needed. Offer to accept the bus "as-is", get the title and get it home, provided it's any kind of saleable and/or usable condition. If you can negotiate your way through it and end up with something tangible, it'd be better off than waiting longer, or having a court decide your fate. I would think Walker would like to see this problem "go away" as much as you do. Courts are a costly gamble for him and you. | ||
| Don/TX
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I agree with Stephen. All the attorneys and courts and judgements will accomplish very little I fear, except to provide lawyer wages and waste lots of time. I would demand the title be transferred (and any liens released that the bank probably has), then take YOUR bus and do as you see fit. Most states have laws about transfer of title to a motor vehicle that would apply if he refuses. I would not get excited over the title reading bus or rv either. THEN if he goes bankrupt or there are seizures of property, they can't take YOUR bus. |