| Author |
Message |
califbob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:57 am: | |
Does anyone know where I might get a stainless steel refer side vent made? I rebuilding a Prevost and it's all electric. I'm putting in propane I don't want to use one of those fiberglass ones Is there any way to coat fiberglass with that fake chrome they use alot on cars now? I'll be etting rid of my 04!
I'm in North Calif |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:23 am: | |
How about those stainless vents used in boats? Some come with a fan in them to assist the draft.
I don't think they are prohibitively expensive, then again, it is marine quality.
I think they fasten onto a 4" diameter hole/tube.
Not a bad installation.
cd |
Jim & Linda Callaghan (Jimc)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:37 pm: | |
I would call Rich at Internationa bus parts.
they do a lot of stainless work for bus converters. If they don't have it, I'm sure you can give them specs of what you want and they will make it.
800-468-5287 |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
I think you should stick to a house/apartment refrigerator and avoid cutting a hold in the side of the bus. Plus you will also have to cut a hole on the roof for the top vent. After all the dicussion on how great house refrigerators work in our conversions why do you want a propane refer? I have an 10.5 Sanyo stainless steel apartment refer and I am totally happy with it. And I didn't have to make any holes in my bus.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:59 am: | |
He doesn't have to go through the roof at all. That's why he's
asking about a side vent cap assembly made out of S/S to
match the S/S of the Prevo.
I'd been battling the choice between an electric home type
or the RV type. When I first started posting here, I mentioned
that I would rather not be bothered with propane and go all
electric. Since then, I made up my mind and paid $700 for a
used/rebuilt 8cf 3-way.
With the room all the batteries take up, the expense of the
batteries and the added expense of the electronics to keep
them happy (as if that's at all possible), it just didn't make
sense to me....... When a couple of BBQ propane tanks can
run my hot water, heat, and fridge for a fraction of the cost
and maintenance headaches.
I'd wager that the cost of the batteries alone, added to the
cost of the home fridge, would about equal the cost I paid
for the RV type and propane tanks. The big difference, is that
I won't be going nuts trying to figure out why my batteries
are dying prematurely and spending big bucks for replacements
when I'm in the middle of Buttshoe Valley. Not to mention the
loss of all my food during those "blackouts". I'll be running my
fridge on propane or 110vac, shoreline or inverter (and 12v in
emergency is possible), I don't like being limited.....
But hey..... We all do it "our way", right? |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:43 am: | |
John, are you saying you are not going to have an inverter and house batteries? That's all you need for a house refrigerator. You don't need fancy electronics, i.e. solar, or even a generator (but you should, anyway). As far as battery failures go, you can see that coming if you check your batteries periodically. The worst I've had to do is disconnect one out of four that went bad on me while camping. I hear a lot more stories on RV refer problems than I do battery/inverter problems. An apartment refer costs $200-300 and easily lasts 20 years without having to sit level. And keeps the beer cold and the food frozen!
--Geoff |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:48 pm: | |
I used to spend a lot of time in the desert where the temperature was many times in the high 90's and low 100's. my three way unit would generally be in the 50's most of the time and therefore almost useless. I was generally running the genset in order to operate the A/C's, but that really did not help the refrigerator. I would loved to have had a household unit and I know I run the genset enough to keep batteries charged overnight or whatever to operate the household unit with no problem.
Richard |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:26 pm: | |
Geoff-
Man.... I read so many stories about having to have a large bank
of batteries to power any fridge from an inverter, that I thought
I'd do better with the conventional rv type unit. Are you guys
saying that 4 batteries and an inexpensive inverter would be
all I need to run a 10cf or less home type?
I'm going to be getting a genset anyway, along with an inverter
that can power 2 ACs using the bus alternator...
Too late now... well maybe... I already paid for the used/rebuilt
unit. I could have him sell it for me on consignment, but I would
need a definitive answer to the ability of running a home type for
a full day or two on a four battery array. We dry camp quite a
bit (Wally-World, etc) and the last thing I'd want, is to lose a
freezer full of food.
Richard-
We had bad luck in the Florida heat with the Norcold in our
Winnietrasho. But the Norcold in our Georgie-Boy worked
great. In fact, we had to be careful with the thermostat, since
we froze the milk and other food inside the food compartment,
twice. The GB had a new cooling unit, while the winnie was
as-is when I bought the RV. If I didn't have the experience of
the comparison of two similar and closely dated refrigerators,
and only the bad times using the winnie's, I'd probably feel as
you do regarding the ability to keep things cool using an RV type. |
Drdave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
LP gas RV Fridge - types use about a Pound of LP per day. I found that you have to figure that into sizing the amount of storage tanks that you have to carry.
Another note, If you have LP gas onboard you cannot go through any Tunnels (per D.O.T.) so if you plan on traveling places that have tunnels an all electric conversion makes better sense even with it's drawbacks. |
Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:16 pm: | |
So when all the fool cell cars that run on "clean" hydrogen are on the road they will not be able to go through tunnels. Sorry I just think the whole hydrogen car thing is a joke. |
DrDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 9:44 pm: | |
The hydrogen thing is a whole load of government bull. The scientist's even say it is a waste of good money after bad. Too expensive to make,carry and distribute and then the safety issues are even more than just scary. It just goes to prove the point that anyone with enough credentials and political fools backing them can get huge government grants to prove it doesn't work.
But of course it takes many years to prove anything if you let them have all the money and no actual usable product to show for it.
Otherwise why would NASA be wanting an alternative to Hydrogen as a fuel? It's simply too dangerous... Imagine getting burned to death by invisible flames in a fender bender.
Maybe TwoDogs can get a grant for his electric fan project, He's probably a safer bet...
DrDave - ( the grump! ) |
Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:02 am: | |
I could not agree more about "fool cells" they are a real joke. I cannot imagine people driving cars with a tank full of hydrogen driving through tunnels. If propane is a risk just imagine hydrogen. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:35 am: | |
John that newguy, if you want to go with a house fridge, and you're running 12 volts for your house, you can usually just multiply the amps AC times 11 to get a pretty good idea of 12 volt amperage. With 24 volt house, just cut it in half.
Many new house fridges will run under 2 amps. If you got one that ran on 1 1/2 amps, that's going to be 16.5 amps on 12 volts. With 75% run time in hot weather, it looks as though your would need 8 golf cart batteries between charges if you limit the discharge to 1/3 of their capacity per day.
In cool weather, I would figure run time about half of the above.
That might not be too bad if there were no other loads on the system. For our use, we run propane and have 6 golf cart batteries. We can run about 2 days between two hour charges, and we're pretty happy with that.
If you figure on running a generator in most warm weather for air conditioning, then it might not be a problem. I has to be hot before we turn on the AC, so we don't run a generator much.
In the end, it's all in what you want.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 7:43 am: | |
Thanks Tom-
What I had in mind for our "home-made RV", was to make it
as simple to maintain as possible. Using 6 golf cart batteries to
run the fridge for a maximum of two days before having to charge
them for two hours, doesn't seem too bad at all! I had figured a
minimum of 8 would be needed. You made it sound fairly simple.
I'm giving more thought about all this, thanks to this thread.. I
already paid for the Norcold and the shop called yesterday to tell
me it's all set to go. He ran it for three days and has ice cubes
all over.. He wants to get it out of the shop as soon as possible...
So..... I suppose I'll load it into the bus and lash it down.. I really
did want to avoid chopping holes in the bus, and wish I waited a
bit longer... But I didn't cut the holes yet..!
I had my own list of "bad points" of trying to have an all electric
RV. Propane seemed to be easier and more economical and
that's what I based my personal opinion on.
What those of us that are still in the planning/building stage need,
is an accounting of all the -bad points- of each power source.
It's a tough decision to make and the deeper you buy into it, the
more difficult it is to back out of it. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:01 am: | |
My 10.5 apartment 120v refrigerator runs for 3-4 days off 4 Group 31 batteries. It draws 1.3 amps at 12v max-- most of the time it is not running so the batteries last longer than one might expect. When I am camping I run the generator everyday since I am also using a microwave, TV, water heater and the AC/heat pumps if necessary. Plus I run the generator to recharge the battery bank since I also run a lot of 12v lights, water pump and Webasto. The household refer does not really affect my generator run time considering all the other stuff I am using. I don't live like a monk when I camp!
--Geoff |
Jerry W Campbell
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:56 pm: | |
I have a Magic Chef 10 cu.ft. from home depot. It says 1.3 amps at 120 volts, that's about 13 amps at 12 volts. At 12 volts it uses 30 amps per day if it's cold out and you don't open it. When it's 95 deg. out with no a/c it draws about 90 amps a day with normal use. Tested over a 4 month period.
Jerry
'75 Crown |
Jon W.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 7:20 pm: | |
We've had both the RV type that was a three way and now we have a side by side house type.
We could run the 3 way for a long time on propane, while using modest amounts of electric.
But....and this is a big but...my wife will never ever ever consider a 3 way RV refrigerator again, and I agree. They frost up, they take a while to cool down, they are efficient, but we are driving an RV and we want to recreate. This roughing it stuff is for the birds.
We have a generator, so we run it. We have AC units, so we run them. We have lots of lights so we light them. We used to try to get along conserving energy so the batteries would last, but what for? We have a generator so we use it. We paid for it and I hope I wear it out.
If I was smart I would have negotiated for a lot of sex in exchange for switching rigs to one with a big generator and refrigerator. She would still be paying and loving it. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:49 pm: | |
You guys are making me wish I waited..
OK.... What are the bad points of using batteries (inverted power)
instead of propane? |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 10:02 pm: | |
Geoff, I would be very interested to find out what kind of fridge you found that runs on 16 watts and does not have to run most of the day. I have no experience with anything like it.
We had a small (3 cu. ft.?) compressor model Norcold many years ago that ran on about 65 watts of 12 volt power, and it ran a good part of the time on hot afternoons.
What do those group 31s amount to in amp hours?
I would really appreciate anything you wish to share on the subject, as I don't like some of the limitations of these RV fridges, either, and I've tried to give the subject a lot of thought.
While we have our problems under control for now, I try to keep learning about things.
Thanks.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 10:16 pm: | |
John that newguy, one thing I forgot to mention. We ran into a busnut that was from Petersburg, Alaska while we were in Quatzsite around three years ago.
I mentioned to him about the weather getting into the fridge side panel and he told me that he just covers the panel and goes ahead and uses his fridge during the winter.
He claimed that he never had a bit of trouble doing that and it kept out the wind and rain from the service area.
I realize that there are many recommendations to have full ventilation at all times.
I thought about what he said and I think it could probably work, most of the time. In cool weather, the flame wouldn't be present much of the time and the air would turn over from the roof opening enough to cool the warm parts.
I have only went so far as to fasten a cover over the service grill whenever we store the coach. We always remove the cover when we are going to use the fridge.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 8:22 am: | |
One of the main reasons I wanted to have an all electric bus
with conventional electric appliances, was to avoid chopping
holes in the bus body. I battled with the idea of going with this
RV Norcold for a few weeks, before going ahead and buying it.
Now..... I wish I had waited longer... Ok..... Let's hear about
the bad points of running an electric fridge... We all know what
the good points are.. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 9:16 am: | |
" Let's hear about the bad points of running an electric fridge."
Massive genset time to charge the batts fully.
Therefore most Campers just charge to the 90% full point and accept the early loss of batt capacity and batt life from chronic undercharging.
Really gets expensive as the batts loose capacity easily and my own personal figure for genset time FULL amortized cost is about $5.00 per hour.
The murdered house battery bank replacement is EXTRA!
At 4 hours a day ($20.00) for the 3 weeks a 20# ($12.00 refill) can of propane would run a fridge/ freezer will cost the noisemaker coach about $400.over all.
Not a great way to "save" money.
Figures are a diesel 6KW noisemaker will cost about $5000 for 1500 to 5000 hours of service in RV light load + frequent cold start use.
(YES the SAME engines get 10,000+ in 24/7 reefer truck service , which is far easier than RV use,)
Fig a 2 bucks an hour for fuel , and another buck for oil , antifreez , filters ,,air & fuel .
The final buck is for the injector rebuilds , starter rebuilds and replacement mufflers and exhaust components.
The really expensive sound absorbing matereial (about a grands worth) will last thru a few noisemakers.
NOT how I would chose to "save" , but everyone counts differently!
DO it your way,
FAST FRED |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:45 am: | |
Sorry, that should have read 1.3 amps at 120v-- I left a "0" out. I don't recall how many amp hours are in my Grp 31 batteries, but I have run the refer alone off the inverter/battery bank for 3+ days several times. Like I said, I run the generator every day when I dry camp so keeping the batteries charged and the refer going is not a problem. When I am not using the bus I keep the shore line plugged in so the refer stays on all the time. I think the point that everyone is missing here is that worrying about how many amp hours it takes to run your 120v refrigerator is more of an exercise in theory than an excercise in reality. If you use your bus like I do, the batteries are going to stay charged up either from the bus alternator, the generator, or a shore line. I don't camp on BLM land for weeks at a time and worry about how much energy I am using.
--Geoff |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:25 pm: | |
I dont see why a house type refer would run any more in a bus then in your house just check out the one in your house. The one in my house dont run that much. The one thing I like is it will run even if its not level. Im going with a side by side by using 2 smaller ones sitting side by side. My thinking is I can get by with one most of time and use the other one to keep stuff the dont need cooling. And Im going to make them like a built in Im going to add more insulation to the out side of them to help with R factor.
And as for FF's "noisemakers" Im going to use the Honda EU 3000 or the newer EU 5000 when it comes out they make almost no noise and will out last you or your bus even under light load. Rayhound with his mc5 has been running his EU 2000 for almost 24/7 for about a year and got over 10000 hrs out of it and it costs no where close to the $5.00 per hour FF posts.
Brian some place out west. |
CoryDaneRTS
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:35 pm: | |
I have the 3way NORCOLD, it is the best RV Refer I have ever had.
You can run the 3way on 12vdc or 120vac without cutting the vetilation holes, just let it "breathe" like a normal home electric.
I found the Gas part to be outstanding and have had no problems with it. It's always cold when needed and I can't complain about excessive propane use.
Using the Propane would of course require venting outside the roof or side, roof is the preferred way.
No matter what, the 3 way which switches over 120vac from 12vdc would be priceless.
If you do use the propane portion (advised for booning) if you start the genny for battery, the frige will switch to 120ac until you shut the genny down.
A very versatile unit. When combined with propane stoves/ovens and furnace, booning becomes less worry free of battery power limits.
The electric home brands have begun to prove themselves, and the original GMC motorhomes had a home model in them.
Norcolds 3 way has the 120vac option, so you have options to work with.
its all good
cd |
Brian (Bigbusguy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:43 pm: | |
Will a NORCOLD work not level?
Brian, Living in a 40 foot box |
Jon W.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:18 pm: | |
FF,
I'm not a CPA so bear with me. My coach has a 20KW generator. normal fuel consumption is a function of the load, but it averages about 1/2 GPH. This is a Yanmar, but my previous genset had a Kubota of 12.5 KW and it ran around 1/3 GPH.
Since the gensets are there, bought and paid for my direct cost is fuel and oil and filter changes. If you wish to amortise the purchase and installation cost of the genset you have to divide the total life by the total cost. I would guess a life of around 30,000 hours is typical if run regularly under load and maintained properly. It seems the cost per hour to amortize the cost would be less than a $1 per hour.
Crank up the AC momma!
PS: My gensets are so quiet the Cruise Airs make more noise. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:24 pm: | |
Brian, I can't say where I saw it, but I recall seeing some figures for out-of-level operation. 3% one direction and 6% the other way. I seem to remember that the steep direction was fore and aft in our coach.
Our fridge is mounted with it's back to the outer skin (standard).
Normally it's no problem unless you let the coach set fairly far off level. When I need to park on the street to shop and it's steep, I shut off the fridge until I get back.
I do this because it's possible to overheat the boiler if it cannot circulate its fluids. This is not a problem while driving the coach because normal motion will promote circulation.
I think there is quite a difference in these cooling units; our Norcold seems much better than the old Dometic it replaced. The Dometic had a bad case of boiler rust which killed it.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 4:03 pm: | |
Brian, I found the reference I was thinking about. Here is a quote from the service manual of our Norcold:
Comfortable vehicle leveling is well within the refrigerator’s operating requirements of 3 degrees off level side-to-side and 6 degrees off level front-toback (looking at the front of the refrigerator). Continued operation outside of these limits can result in irreparable damage to the cooling system.
Most parking lots will be within 4% of level. That's the figure used here, in Ketchikan, where we have 13 feet of rain a year and can get several feet of snow.
Usual parking lot drainage will be on the order of 1%.
I hope this helps.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 6:10 pm: | |
To add to Tom's comment::
As far as the "leveling" problem... There really isn't much of
one as you'd think.
The front-to-rear leveling of the fridge doesn't matter, it's the
side-to-side leveling of the fridge that matters. And it matters
only to the extent, that if you have food sliding to one side, youse
gots a prob-o-lum (about 4 degree angle?). There's no need to
get too concerned, but you can't park on a hill and keep the fridge
on.. A simple and quick "fix" is to install a standard mercury switch
to turn the power off if the level goes too far out of whack. Some
of the newer units will not work unless they're reasonably level.
It all does give a great argument for a compressor type. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 6:11 am: | |
The "problem" of off level propane fridges was solved about 2 decades ago in the late 80's.
Old 50's and 60's units would have problems , but the mfg today claim if you can stay in bed with out rolling out , your icecream will do fine.
The KEY to this discussion is how LONG you need to boondock.
Geoff does fine overnite or perhaps even for a weekend , but with no battery monitoring gear , there is no way to know if his House batt cycling is 100% to 50% or 100% to 10% , which does work for a while.
The realistic way to decide what is required for YOUR WAY, is a rational assesment of your camping needs.
Power Pole to another PP is easy and cheap,
but those few (NOT ME!!) that want to be independant enough for a Winter at Quartzite (months of independance) should go read the many many many discussions in the files and do your own contemplation.
Start with the Gov "efficency" tag that states KW used per year , and go from there.
FAST FRED |