| Author | Message | ||
| John Feld (Deacon)
Rating: N/A |
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2005/H05_02_05.pdf | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
For those on dial up... The above link is a NTSB safety recommendation from an accident involving a church bus hitting a tractor trailer parked at the side of the road. Some stuff about speed restricted tires, poor seat anchorage, not being properly registered, etc. Good to see the depth of detail when one is involved in a serious colllision.... Lets one think hard about the choices made when converting the coach.... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
The tires on the bus had absolutely nothing to do with the accident. The NTSB will find -anything- to make the point for their existence; that's their job. "The motorcoach, carrying 14 passengers, was en route from Shreveport, Louisiana, to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, as part of a multicity sightseeing tour that had originated in Eldorado. As the motorcoach approached milepost 168, it drifted rightward from the travel lanes and onto the shoulder, where it struck the rear of a 1988 Peterbilt tractor semitrailer operated by Alpha Trucking, Inc., which was stopped on the shoulder at milepost 167.9." They also cited the deficiencies of preventive maintenance of the trucking company, that caused it to sit aside the road contributing to the accident event... Right. So I suppose we should park the conversion and forget about driving it at all, since a breakdown that causes us to be stranded (however temporarily) well off the roadway, would lend us to be cited as the cause of an accident if a motorist manages to drive into us? Malarkey, BS and a waste of time reading it. It's a CMA report and serves absolutely no useful purpose. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG: Classic example of someone "making a mountain out of a mole hill." The bus driver went to sleep at the wheel, end of story. About the only thing I noticed of interest to those on this board was the discussion of the speed rated tires, a subj. that comes up here often. And while the author harrangued a bunch on how unsafe speed rated tires were on the hi-way, I noticed that he was careful not to state that any law prevented it. | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
John that Grumpy Guy, Easy, lad, easy. It is just a safety recommendation. The purpose of the report is to point out where current legislation fails and what can be done to, perhaps, avoid this tragedy again. I agree, the NTSB needs to write this particular report to validate their existence, but this report goes far beyond asking that everyone "park the conversion and forget about driving it at all". You've missed the gist of the report entirely, which is clear in saying: 1. Don't park your bus... instead, simply avoid driving on the same roads where tractor semitrailers are present. 2. When you fall asleep at the wheel, try to drift to the left, not the right. 3. When striking the rear of a tractor semitrailer, it is better to do so square on, so as to kill yourself rather than live with the burden of 8 other peoples' deaths. 4. Elect the politician who will disband the NTSB, because it is a useless arm of government which has no purpose on the planet except to add to the number of agencies that have their hand in your pocket. 5. Blindly go ahead and nail down the seats in your bus, but don't ever check them to see if they are still attached to the floor. 6. Do not, I repeat, do not try to educate non-traditional vehicle owners on the merits of Regulation compliance. 7. Put 55 mph retread caps on all wheels of your bus. 8. Automatically certify anyone who owns a bus as a qualified vehicle safety inspector and remove all systems of checks to ensure no buses need to go through a costly, time-consuming safety inspection. And, for goodness sakes, Angry Guy, don't for a split second think that you could ever glean even a smidgin of safety knowledge out of a report like this. Heaven knows you are the safety guru of our hobby... John that Safety Guru. I like it. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello JtNG. What is wrong with reading a full analysis of a collision event? What is wrong with seeing how detailed the government's safety folks will be? What is wrong with seeing that seemingly unrelated issues may creep into the investigation and be put in the report? Ever wonder what a lawyer might do with that report? Just because you have an opinion about the government's safety investigation folks and/or the court system doesn't mean that others won't benefit from reading, or shouldn't make up their own minds for the amount of trouble certain decisions about converting a bus might cause them. I cannot help wondering from your harsh tone, whether you have either never been in real trouble, or you didn't learn your lesson when you were? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Did I spell "smidgin" correctly? Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Hey, you're supposed to be coming over here!! Get yer a$$ in gear man. The coffee's gettin' cold! Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Spell Check Rating: N/A |
Smidgen: Noun. Also smidgeon, smidgin. A very small quantity or portion; a bit; a mite. [Probably variant of British dialectical "smitch", probably variant of "smutch". Note: The definition of "smutch" leads one to further derivative references, so there will be no further on this matter. (Ian, you knew I'd do this, didn't you? LOL) (Editor's Note: Thanks Linda! *Hug*) | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
I@N, you left a few off: 9. Don't be from Texas 10. Don't drive a Neoplan 11. Don't sightsee or hang around in Louisiana 12. Don't even think about planning a trip to Alabama 13. Don't shuttle a bunch of Baptists around. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Brew a new pot... I had to get some LED lights down to the post office, so some of your viewers can improve the look of their rears.... I'm on my way shortly. I'm sure you understand "computer reasons"? happy coaching! buswarrior (Editor's Note: I guess I'm stuck feeding you lunch now!! Hurry up, then.) | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A |
BW, thank you for doing what you could to help improve the look of my rear.  | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Not mentioned on this board was the need for a CDL when you are NOT commercial, but based on the Feds definition of a Commercial Vehicle. Those that say you need a CDL ONLY when you are operating a commercial enterprise, are wrong. (Of course, I maintain that ANY church is actually operating a business for profit) | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Don, I presume you mean you need a CDL if you are operating a commercial enterprise OR operating a bus in a class considered to be commercial by virtue of the Federal definition. It is not true, everywhere, that you need a CDL when operating a bus conversion. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
No, that is not what I meant to infer. Often there are contributors to the board who make their own definition of a "commercial vehicle" and those that claim that if you register it as something else, it is not a commercial vehicle. This was a classic example showing that no matter how you register, title, or tag it, it is still a commercial vehicle and may require a CDL, and the various baggage such as log books, periodic inspections, etc. If it is "for hire" or not has nothing to do with it. | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
So you are saying that I may need a CDL if I drive a bus conversion with passengers, titled as a motorhome or a commercial bus without passengers, titled as a commercial bus??? Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
In Canada the requirement for a class 1 is determined by the number of passenger seats (usually about 15) if in non commercial service. If there is even one passenger in a vehicle with more than the specified number of seats, the driver has to have a Class 1. In Alberta you can drive a commercial passenger vehicle without passengers with a commercial Class 3 with Air Endorsement. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
As a note of interest on license requiremnets. Last year Alberta changed their Air Brake Endorsement regulation to make it mandatory for the driver of any vehicle with air brakes. Previously RVs were exempt. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
It is *definately* worth making sure your seats aren't going to go anywhere in a crash. That to me is the most significant aspect of the report. Some of the conversions have a problem in this area. Example: '60s era bus, somebody lays down a plywood layer over the original floor, starts working up from there. Trouble is, the original flooring was asbestos-based. Drill clean through it to do solid mounting with bolts run into big disc washers and nuts in the bays, you have a toxic problem (drill bit scatters bad dust into the air - if it's somebody else's prior conversion you MUST assume this is going on!) The alternative though is to anchor seats with wood screws into the plywood...not at ALL crashworthy. It's solvable, but it's tricky. One method: "wet drill" using copious oil on the bit so that no dust is created...then do careful cleanup. Now you can run 1/2" good grade bolts going down to the bay, cap with 2" steel disks, use a nut, lockwasher and locktite blue. Four per seat or six on a side-by-side recycled coach seat, it ain't going anywhere. Same sort of thing we used to do on custom Baja Bug VW seats for crash'n'bump protection. If you're in a seat, belted, the seat stays in place and the frame's structural integrity is OK, it's close to impossible to die in a bus wreck short of going off a cliff or hitting a dead solid vertical surface at highway speeds. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
HAR!! I@n- Gee I@a, a bit touchy up north, are we? Musta' been a long winter, ehh? Buswarrior- I occasionally had the task of inspecting Telco plant. I could come back with 1,000 pages of Bell Spec violations, all of which did not, do not and never will cause trouble to any customer, or to the company. Inspectors get paid to find every violation, and every near violation. That's their job; that's why they get a check at the end of the week. The tires did not cause the accident. There were no mechanical causes. The driver dozed off and ran into a vehicle stopped off the roadway. Why should anyone care what's in the report? Do you really think that if a truck ran into my stalled, partially converted bus while I sat in the breakdown lane, that the court, insurance company, or any other legal department could make use of the fact my seats aren't secured properly? You guys up north are a bit on the paranoid side of the line, eh? Down here, the Queen doesn't rule. ('Cept for maybe Lin and Lola...) Don...... A commercial vehicle is registered as a commercial vehicle. If it is registered as a private vehicle; not for hire; not carrying more than 15 passengers... it is not a "commercial vehicle". Yes, there are exceptions. A backhoe, road grader, or typical tractor-trailer would be hard bent to convince any agency that it is an "RV", or private use vehicle. But then again, what agency will permit a registration and title for such a vehicle to be made as a "private" vehicle? None. Likewise, an RV is an RV, and in near all states the RV manufacturer lobbyists worked hard to eliminate any licensing obstacles for the owners of these vehicles. To date, an RV does not fall to any "commercial vehicle" constraints. What California does in their typical socialistic manner has nothing to do with reality. Do we stop at the weigh stations? No. Do we need CDL? No. Are we required to keep a log? No. Are we required to stop driving after (and rest at) set periods of time? No. Are considered a Commercial vehicle? No. The NTSB officer and any other gubberment officer can write whatever they desire on whatever paper they choose, just as any local officer can cite you for doing what is not illegal. Does it mean anything? No. The court will decide that. The "tire issue" has been beat to a pulp. Most all new buses are being delivered with 315/80r/22.5 tires. The older ones with highway threads rated "55mph" are rated that at their maximum carrying capacity and at full tire pressure. Used at the weight and pressure the normal bus uses, the tire is rated for normal highway speed. It should also be noted, that the "55mph" speed was a federal speed limit of the past. The tires from that era carried that rating.... gee, some coincidence, huh? And further, Don..... *Most all states allow private groups to own and maintain their own transportation. The vehicles and drivers are not required to meet any guideline for commercial use. Churches have long been typically exempt from all guidelines. I agree, that any vehicle carrying passengers for hire, or more than 15 passengers, should be required to meet the same criteria as any commercial entity. But if anyone thinks that a "special" license or special vehicle registration will net safer transportation, they had better guess again. School buses in Florida have a terrible record, and it's getting worse since the inception of the CDL. I wonder why....... (rhetorical breath) | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
While I especially think the only thing the government should do is protect our shores and pave our roads, I also believe we as a society continually prove govenment intervention is sometimes necessary to protect us from ourselves. Just a few things to make my point. The tires did not cause this crash. But at what point would the 55 MPH tires caused a crash when one or more failed? Perhaps a CDL would have had no way to prevent this crash, but I think people that earn a CDL tend to think and act more like a professional, and professional drivers, like professional pilots take themselves off duty when they are not fit. I think a true professional would have caught a nap instead of the rear end of a truck. Somebody may be alive if the bus was professionally maintained, and a driver who actually has some skills might have caught the seat problem in a pre-trip inspection. I know it is not a popular position to want to see folks driving big rigs required to demonstrate their skills, but there isn't a person on the forum that hasn't sat in their rigs in a campground and gone crazy watching some incompetent driver trying to get into a site. The same drivers are sharing the road with you and your family. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
It appears John the new guy, that you are saying that the NTSB don't know what they are doing, and you have all the right answers. I will not argue that point, all I did was point out that YOUR ideas stated as facts, not only disagree with the NTSB, but cannot be substantiated by any references. Show us the references that exempt church buses, which if what you say is true, they would not even NEED an exemption. Your definition of a commercial vehicle does not agree with DOT, do you have a reference for that? What federal agency has ever said if you remove the seats, or use a bus as an RV, or get some state to register it as one, exempts it? But most importantly of all, what allows you or me to "remanfacture" a commercial vehicle into an RV? Give me a reference on that one too. The reference cited above, merely confirms that a church bus, even though re titled and not in commercial service, still is a bus. Everyone in the USA gets to make their own decisions, this church and the trucking company are now paying the consequences of their poorly thought out decisions. We can listen to the expertise of the lawn boy that cuts the grass at the Police Dispatchers lawn, or listen to the NTSB and DOT. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Don- "this church and the trucking company are now paying the consequences of their poorly thought out decisions. " Exactly what "consequences of their poorly thought out decisions" are they now paying for? There were no fines levied for any of the NTSB findings and not one of their "findings" were the cause of this accident. CDL drivers fall asleep at the wheel.... does the grade of license matter when the holder dozes off? The "State"; the government entity that provides the certification for title and registration, sets the legal interpretation of that vehicle. If it deems my car to be a Commercial vehicle and provides a commercial title and registration (plate) for it, I can be ticketed for being on a byway or highway restricted to non-commercial vehicles. If a 10 ton vehicle is certified as a Recreational Vehicle (and not a commercial vehicle), the owner can use it on any roadway that any other non-commercial vehicle can use (provided it is not weight or size restricted). Your assumption that some Federal agency's opinion can supercede -any- state's legislation is...uhhh.... well.... wrong. Buses are converted into RVs by commercial manufacturers. RVs do not fall to any Commercial vehicle regulations in most all States. Drivers of RVs are not subject to Commercial vehicle licensing and regulations. Your question: "What federal agency has ever said if you remove the seats, or use a bus as an RV, or get some state to register it as one, exempts it? But most importantly of all, what allows you or me to "remanfacture" a commercial vehicle into an RV?" Is sheer rhetoric.... It's been done; it's being done, and will continue to be done. There's no question to be answered; it's redundant. The fact that -some- states require Church bus drivers to have CDL licenses and some do not, is an issue not worth debating. It's fact. It's also fact that the driver of any vehicle carrying more than 15 passengers; or over 26k in weight needs a CDL. It is also fact, that drivers of recreational vehicles are exempt. (minimum reading: http://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/NAV-pages/navart34.shtml) And when the vehicle is registered and classified as a Recreational Vehicle, it does not need to have a CDL operator or conform to regulations directed to commercial vehicles. Sometimes, Donnie.... the lawnboy's got more sense than the owner of the lawn. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Well, write your own interpretations and make your own conclusions if you wish. Even your own reference disagrees with you, as do many others.. The point is, that the CDL law is NOT a state requirement, but a Federal one, as well as the definition of who needs one. Never once in the federal requirements does the state title and registration type or wether or not you are carrying passengers EVER come into the requirements. Would it have made any difference in the accident results? Not that I can see, except perhaps the properly completed log book might have reminded the driver he was over on driving hours (if he in fact was over hours) | ||
| John that newuglyandmeanguy Rating: N/A |
Let's end the "debate". Recreational Vehicle drivers do not require a CDL: http://www.dol.wa.gov/ds/cdl.htm | ||
| Doneda
Rating: N/A |
Well, I was never "debating" that, it has been hashed over so many times already. (too many times really) All that it had to do with buses I felt, was that the often asked question of bringing a new bus home, you COULD be in trouble with the law, regardless of how you titled or registered it, just as this church was. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
For you gentlemen (?) commenting upon the complexity of the bus/truck crash report, you should see a "real" NTSB report...specifically the aftermath of an aircraft accident. Cheers...JJ | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Hey, that is what my brother does for a living. Talk about your embedded job insurance peddlers with a line of crap a mile long! Can't seem to make things right before the crash, but can they ever find fault AFTER the crash, you would think paperwork is what makes planes fly. | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
Oh my, they actually check the spelling, geeze! | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
JJ- Ya' mean like "Flight 800", where thousands of witnesses' testimony were ignored; structural damage ignored and aerodynamic impossibilities made to look possible? Oh yeah..... -That- NTSB... | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
yup, as I thought, never been in trouble. carry on. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
As I read the report, I noticed it said "all of the passengers in the first seven rows". Since a row normally consists of 4 seats, that would indicate that the bus had seating for AT LEAST 28 people! Since there WERE passengers on the bus, and they had PAID (by way of their contributions) to ride on the bus, that looks like a commercial vehicle to me. How is it that you need a CDL to drive a school bus, but not a church bus????? Jim-Bob | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Jim-Bob- The Federal legislation requires any driver of a vehicle carrying over 15 passengers to have a "CDL" license. It does not exempt "church" or private organizations. But if the vehicle is not crossing state lines (operated interstate only), and the state does not require a "CDL" for specific organizations regardless of carry capacity, then the driver or organization is not acting illegally regardless of what the Fed mandate is. Some states do not require a church to abide by the usual motor vehicle regulations. That is why the church in this case, stated that they did not know they needed a "special license". | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Whoops... damned fingers... "Intrastate" is within the state only. "Interstate" is across state lines. Shoulda' been "operated intrastate only". | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
The bus, the driver, and the church were from the state of Texas. Texas (as well as ANY OTHER STATE I am aware of) has always required church buses to be driven by an individual with a CDL, in compliance with the federal law. So when they said they did not know they needed a CDL, I think they were just trying to justify not complying with the law, by pleading ignorance, or more probably, that they simply thought they were above the law. References to back up your claims would be helpful JTNG, give us the states that exempt church bus drivers, and the federal law about number of passengers on board (I think you will find it speaks of "originally designed to carry -- passengers"). | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Don- I ain't got that much time... Anyone can research the data, though: http://www.legaltips.org/texas/TN/tn.007.00.000522.00.aspx You are correct that Texas does not (now) exempt religious groups from the CDL license, and that the requirements include the ability of the vehicle (it's designed use) to carry more than 16 passengers. If the church had been instructed by some local agent that it was not required to have a CDL licensed driver, it still would not exempt them, nor would it exclude them from penalty. That was their excuse in this story, regardless. Illinois has a vague description that exempts religious groups of CDL requirements under certain conditions and I'm sure you can find many other states as well. But Don..... None of this has anything to do with the accident. A CDL license wouldn't have kept the bus driver alert enough to avoid a vehicle that was well off the roadway. Not much of the NTSB report was of any use to anyone wishing to avoid an accident. When they cited the possible lack of preventative maintenance of the trucking company that may have contributed to the truck being stopped on the road shoulder......as being a contributing factor of that accident...... they lost all my respect. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, mine too, but it gave me a good laugh! | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Imagine "electric utility pole placed in vehicle path" or "failure of maintenance crews to remove trees from right of way" or "highway overpass supports located too close to roadway". I bet they have a large list of such stuff just to have for filler material in reports. |