| Author | Message | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Rating: |
I recieved my new "backwoods Solar Electric" catalogue, and noticed a product that I'd not ran across before- Battery Box Vent Fans: "ready made, 12,24, or 48 volt fan in pipe section with back draft dampner for easy installation in your battery vent pipe. The automatic switch below will control a 12 or 24 volt fan. 12 and 24 volt models gp in a 2" pVC pipe," etc. The switch runs the fan when battery is at or above gassing voltage. Holds fan on for 15 minutes after voltage drops down, then shuts down. Manual switch to turn on or off at any time. It could be a cool problem solver for the bus converter- Although I think pricey- the fan is $74.00 and the switch is $77.00 Of course thats cheaper than being blown up- For folks with Trace inverters- Is there a way to trigger the fan with the "bulk" charge on the inverter, and off in the float? Sean? Oh, Backwoods Solar 208-263-4290 Sandpoint Idaho Excellent folks to deal with, I have made several purchaces from these guys www.backwoodssolar.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
Chuck, To answer your specific question -- No. At least not on the SW series. I have a similar problem, in that I need to send exra cooling air to the inverter itself when it is in the bulk cycle, so I looked at this pretty extensively. In the short term, we connect the extra fan to our non-inverter power, so it comes on any time the inverter sees input power. In the long term, I'll probably put in a thermostatic switch to turn on the extra fan. We avoided the gassing problem altogether by using AGM batteries, which are an excellent choice for motorcoach applications. When I ran the numbers, the life cycle costs of AGMs came out about equal to flooded cells. -Sean | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
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sean, the batteries I have are Alphacell Agm160 which are 160 minutes run time at 25 amps. are these gell cells or completely different? I get beat up for using them and you say there great, the AGM that is. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) are a different animal than Gel Cells Ron. They are both lead/acid but the difference is how the acid is entraned in the cells. The acid of an AGM is liquid and absorbed and contained in a special glass mat while gel cells contain a paste or gel type acid. Sorry you feel beat upon just because I pointed out some shortcomings of gel cells. If u don't like diverse opinion and new information, you should not post on a public forum board. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Hey Ron- * S M A C K * | ||
| Al Johnstad Rating: N/A |
I plan on using all AGM Optimas in my conversion. The literature says they can be inverted and even submerged. If that is the case, do I still have to vent the battery compartment, or can it be sealed? | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Al, Do you have a Terra-Wind? I wouldn't worry about submerging or inverting the batteries unless you run off the road and into a river.  Jest Kidding..... | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Bilge Blowers... They are called Bilge Blowers. Bilge Bilge Bilge Now I feel better, Got all that bilge off my chest | ||
| bruce king
Rating: N/A |
If you can trigger the fan via voltage, and the voltage is sensitive enough that you can set it for the bulk or equalization charging voltage... wouldn't that work? My trojan t105s are wired as 24volts, the bulk charging voltage suggested for them is 31 volts. Full charge is somewhere around 25.9 volts. Seems like that should be enough range if the device can reliably sense that. My solution was to install a 110 volt fan that is plugged into a generator-only outlet. When the generator runs the fan runs. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Wow, I go to Disneyland for a day, and my mail box fills up. A lot to answer here. Starting with Ron: I spent some time kicking around Alpha Technologies' (poorly designed) web site. I could not find any specs on the AGM160, so I am assuming this is a discontinued model. However, what little I know about Alpha is that they are in the backup and remote site power business, catering principally to the telcom market. I am guessing the batteries you have are telcom take-outs (or remainders). From the model number, and the types of batteries Alpha sells, I would guess these are AGM VRLA batteries (Absorbed Glass Mat, Valve-Relieved Lead Acid). That tells us the type, and the chemistry, but not the physical construction. Physical construction (e.g. plate thickness and surface area, mat thickness, etc.) has a large bearing on battery performance. Generally, batteries, whether glass mat, gel, or flooded, are designed for a particular kind of service. For example, starting batteries have very different performance characteristics from deep-cycle batteries. Even within deep cycle batteries there are different types. The type of battery you really want for a coach is the type that can be discharged quite a bit, say to 50-60% depletion, then recharged to almost full, then discharged again, etc. etc. for many, many cycles. Under this kind of service, a typical RV battery can have a life span of perhaps 2-4 years. Unfortunately, the type of battery that is normally used for telecom applications is made for a different type of service, called "float" service. In this service, the batteries are generally on a float charger at all times, except for the occasional grid power failure, when they may be discharged to 50, 60, or even 90% in extreme cases. Then they are charged back up very slowly, at a rate near the float voltage. The batteries are engineered for a ten year life span under this type of service. Generally, telecom take-outs can be had very cheap, or even free. Telcos replace them on a schedule, and many have a great deal of life left in them. The problem is the construction does not lend itself well to RV-type usage, and the battery will either not provide the current hoped for, or it will not live through the number of cycles that you hope it will. Long-winded, I know, but, basically, there is no simple answer to the question "is an AGM battery better than a flooded battery." The answer is always going to be "depends on the specifications of the AGM and flooded batteries being compared." All that being said, AGM batteries have some characteristics that make them more suitable in certain applications, one of those being lack of an evironmentally-appropriate place to locate flooded cells. See below... As a final note, many people find that telecom batteries are a good value for them because, even though they may not last as long as RV/Marine batteries or Alternative Energy batteries, their low initial and replacement costs make them very cost effective in the long run. Onward to Al's question: AGM batteries are not really "sealed." They have small pressure relief valves that are designed to prevent the batteries from exploding if they are subject to serious overcharging, a direct short, and/or extreme enviromental temperatures. A more appropriate way to look at gas release from AGM batteries is to say that they will not release any gas under normal conditions. Normal conditions for these batteries is a pretty wide range, and so they are considered safe for use in personnel-occupancy areas, transport on airplanes, and a variety of other approvals not normally given to flooded cells. From a safety standpoint, however, you still want to make sure the gas has someplace to go if it does vent, and that it won't find its way to an ignition source. We had to use AGMs because our batteries are, essentially, in the cockpit with us -- something we needed to do for weight-and-balance reasons. On to the last question, from Bruce: Yes, a voltage-sensing circuit, set at a voltage higher than the float voltage but lower than the bulk voltage, would work. However, the original question was "does the Trace inverter provide this capability," and it does not. There are a number of auxilliary relays that trigger on voltage levels, but it's not possible to easily set them up to provide this indicator. (It is possible, though, in a round-about way by using two of the aux relays together to effect a cut-in/cut-out system -- you would not exactly mirror the bulk cycle, but you could get close enough for some purposes. I wouldn't trust it for safety issues like vent fans for outgassing.) Remember that the bulk charging "voltage" is not achieved (by most chargers) until the very end of the bulk cycle. In practice, the batteries will pull this voltage way down while they are absorbing charge as fast as the charger can put it out. You really need to set your cut-in voltage just above float. Whew. -Sean | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Al: I think you will find that the Optima line of batteries are Spiral Wound Gel Cell, not AGM. They now make a marketed true deep cycle, however, check the 20 hr. rate listed on them; it is very low, 105 as I recall. Again, Gel Cells have not proven to hold up to deep cycling. Perhaps Optima has found a way to overcome this persistent problem. They are a very good battery for starter service. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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Back to fans - don't you want to be sure for this purpose, fan(s) is/are brushless to prevent sparkleys in the flow of gas effluent? | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Marine Bilge blower fans are rated for gasoline and other fumes and have suppression built in. | ||
| m Rating: N/A |
a bus nut from Victoria has 16 golf cat barreries in on bank and 4 in another plus start ones and he uses -thermal oil, in them and has had them for 5 years and he has no gasing or corroder terminals. the easy way is to vent ta allow air into the battery chamber. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Here is what I found using Google search. BATTERY ADDITIVE For all wet-cell batteries Additive consists of specially formulated oils to keep battery working under any condition (from -70° to 400° F) Keeps corrosion off of clean terminals and cables! A new breakthrough in battery maintenance used by major industrial and commercial fleets for years. The balanced oil mixture always floats to top of battery's acid and water creating a chemical exchange that prevents harmful gases from forming. Battery never runs down due to corroded cables or loss of electrolyte from evaporation. Great for car truck boat RV golf cart cycle lawnmower and industrial batteries. Thermoil® ensures quick starts and prevents being stranded; virtually eliminates battery maintenance—a must for hard-to-access batteries; extends battery life; reduces risk of explosion; improves battery's charging characteristics. Limited (Ownership Duration) Warranty: Full replacement as long as you own your vehicle in which battery is installed if Thermoil® does not perform as stated above. Warranty applies to Thermoil® only. Labor not included. Quantity Requirements: 12-volt car truck boat or RV: 2 oz. per cell Motorcycle or lawnmower: 1/2 oz. per cell 6-volt golf cart: 4 oz. per cell 4D and 8D industrial batteries: 5 oz. per cell | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
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A voltage sensing switch could be build easy enough using a comparator and a few resitors. The trick would finding a reference voltage. Lets say you want the fan to come on at 12.9 volts. You would need to supply a reference voltage of 12.9 volts to the comparator, then a voltage of higher than that applied to the other input would trip the camparator and relay/transistor attached to it. Ross | ||
| Al Johnstad Rating: N/A |
James - The new Optimas are AGM. http://www.dcbattery.com/optima2.html Great thoughts on this thread about fans. Thanks for the input | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
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Ross, couldn't that be done more cheaply (Pleases me!) by having the voltage regulator close the coil on a simple single pole relay. When the batteries are under charge, the fan would run. A new 3" bilge blower at the marine supply across the street is $25.00, and a SP relay at AutoZone is $4.50. That's what I did on mine, but I have a '72 dinosaur regulator, not solid state, which may complicate things. ...JJ | ||
| Jim Stacy
Rating: N/A |
Why not put Hydrocaps on the batteries and forget all the fans, controls, sensors, etc? No problem vapors leave the Hydrocap and liquid is returned to the cell. I check acid level twice a year but rarely add any distilled water. They require no maintenance and never wear out. I have been using them for over 7 years with no problems. Simple is good. Jim Stacy |
