| Author |
Message |
mclough
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 9:37 am: | |
hey guys(and gals)
i have a 57 4104 with a 6-71 2 valve head.saying that it is under powered is an understatment. many have talked about a converstion to a 8-71 etc. what would be the cost appx of a 6-71 ta? or upgrading this engine to have a few more ponies. thanks
morgan |
Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:22 am: | |
My opinion,
conversion is cost prohibative......your money will not be recoupable (sp?)
chances are your engine is just tired and in need of a rebuild.
prior to obtaining my 04 my dad had put in a brand new crate 6-71 with worlds of difference. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:38 am: | |
There are a few left hand 6-71TA's out of transits available, the last person that was selling them was Randy Fulkerson. He was/is sick but apparently still doing business despite the opening page to his website. Maybe he can help you find one or give you enough information to find one somewhere else:
http://www.rwfulkerson.com/ |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 1:27 pm: | |
I just bought a '58 4104 with the same engine. I haven't driven it yet so don't know about the power but the PO said it is not producing as much power as it did after a good "hands on" by a good DD mechanic. This is an excellent engine as shown by its many good years in truck and marine uses. I was in the Navy and we used them by the thousands, very reliable. It is not a speedster, just good and dependable with medium power, depends on what you want.
I got a bus to enjoy the trip, not see how fast I can get there so a 6-71 is just what I want, always wanted one in an antique truck but never found one.
Evidently the performance of the 6-71 is very much dependant on being in the hands of the right mechanic and I plan to get mine to a good mechanic as soon as I get it. |
mclough
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:02 pm: | |
not looking for speed demon but i have a trailer to pull and is a real dog on hills black mtn in tn 1st gear 15 mph .
6 % grade |
DMDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 5:35 pm: | |
there are several 04's that have upgraded to 6v92's that go to Jack Conrads new years rally. It is expensive, as it invovles a new trans and differential. $40,000. to 80,000 if some one else does it. Most folks will tell you to just upgrade the whole coach. (probably right) only YOU can deciede what you want. You have a nice lookin classic rig. Is the $ worth it to you. You could finace a new $200,000. rig and it might last until its paid for. who wants one of those ? Take your time and look around. There is a great article in the March 2005 National Bus Trader mag titled HIll Climbing in Older coaches. If you up to a 6-71turbo your top end wont change but you will have more power. Good luck and maybe we'll see ya in Florida in Jan. |
ggo4
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:06 pm: | |
I'm running a 671ta ddec II from Randy..Total cost was $4ooo..But I did all labor myself..Easyest swap I have done on a bus..the hardest slowest part was wireing in the computers.You have to run a remote filter and change the exhaust location..I'm running at 300hp with no signs of overheating... I am running a stock style and size radiator with a 28" flexlite fan and a custom shroud you just have to get used to the temp staying at about 190 but thats what the thermostats are..the last 9000 miles have averaged 11.7mpg...and I can run with the traffic no matter where we are... I would do it again in a minute...Best upgrade I've ever made to a bus...GG04..Just Us |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:10 pm: | |
Yes the 671TA is now the engine of choice for the old faithful 4104. Lots of power from the 300+hp and 11+ mpg.Cost out of a transit $5000.00 cost reman, no core $10,500 bolts right up to the tranny.This way you dont have the additional Wieght of the 6v92 or the 871. and a better heavier bearing design than the 6v92.
John
PS RDW has clocked 10,000+ miles on his maybe he will post? |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 12:54 am: | |
671TA or 6V71TA? By the time turbos were common in transits the inline 6 detroit was out.
The weak spot in the 4104 drivetrain is the bevel gearset so you probably wouldn't want to put a whole lot more torque through it than stock. |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 6:57 am: | |
Phil,
I disagree. Lots off transit manufactures and remans went to the 671TA with an auto tranny and the V-drive.
John |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 10:53 am: | |
Most common late model two stroke detroit ordered for low emmisions in late 80's and up for transits is the 6L71ta ddec better milage and lots of power and torque...6v71's were model that was out..I'm running alots more torque and HP and (knock on wood) so far no problems of anykind...It bolts right up to the original plates and mounts...makes the old 4spd really fun to drive...just as much power and torque as a conventional 6v92 ,8v71..but lots lighter and no major modifications needed..with 671 milage... don't see a down side...easy....gg04=rdw4104 |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:02 pm: | |
Which late model (post 1980) transit coaches built for the North American market had the inline 6 Detroit Series 71?
I'll bet you can't name a single one, because the last production transit bus that came with that engine was built by GM in April, 1959. |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:29 pm: | |
The GM,s that ran them had retrofits. I am told there are lots of them that came in OEM transits, I will dig up the infomation.
Phil, what coach and what motor are you running?
John |
morgan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 8:18 pm: | |
hey guys,
can i take my existing 6-71 add a turbo and the new pistons. is that all that is needed to change is pistons and injectors? |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 8:21 pm: | |
GM switched to the V engines with the beginning on New Look production in 1959. The V engines are lighter and possess a number of advantages over their inline counterparts.
Turbochargers were not common on transit busses until the late 70s/early 80s due to cost and maintenance issues. Fuel economy was simply not an issue. If you wanted a city bus, you got a 6V71. If you wanted it to go on the highway, you got the 8V71. (This excludes other makes like Cummins which began to make inroads into Detroit's dominance of the transit bus engine market in the 80s.)
Turbos made their way into transit bus fleets in a big way with the 6V92TA, the 6 that would do the work of the 8, after it was tested and proven reliable in Greyhound service. By this time fuel consumption was very much an issue. Eventually the 8V71 was out of the transit bus market, unless a customer special ordered it for fleet commonality reasons. The choices became Big Six or Little Six, the 6V92TA or the 6V71N. The 6V71TA was an uncommon option for 96 inch wide coaches that couldn't be equipped with the 6V92TA but needed more power for highway cruising.
This was 20 years after the 6-71 had been consigned to the history books in favor of the V engine.
It would make no sense to retrofit such an engine in a V engine bus. You'd have to reconfigure quite a few things in the engine room to get it to fit. Refitting a Cummins L10 into an AM General required enough engineering that the swap never became as popular as Cummins wanted it to be.
My coach is a Flyer D901 (Canadian AM General clone) with a 6V92TA and a V730. If I ever decide to go the inline 6 route, I'd switch it over to a T drive system before even thinking of shoehorning an inline 6 sideways into the engine room. |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 9:54 pm: | |
The problems DDA have had first off with the 6v92TA was the very weak block and lack of main bearings, this was somwhat modified later and the silver series have a beefed up block, nothing could be done to add bearings. After these problems were somwhat solved, they still had the uncontrollable vibration problem, caused by the V configuration. That is why DDA went back to the tried and true in line engine( 671 ) . same as cummings and cat.
As for the 671, TA, or not its one heck of a reliable work horse.
John,
The 8v71TA is a much stronger and reliable engine than the 6v92TA |
ggo4
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 10:27 pm: | |
Try 89 and up Flex metro's Phil, mine came out of a 92 model...It had a 671ta DDEC and a v730...And for your information 4104's are 671's no V engine here thats why the 671ta is such a great refit...up to 350 hp and double your torque and you do not have to change trans or rear ends....easy swap...the v engines have no advantages except for taking up a shorter area...4104's were designed around a 671..keep what works....gives you the best weight to hp rating of any swap you could reasonably do...works for me ..gg04 |
ggo4
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 11:01 pm: | |
Morgan,sorry missed your post..It is easier and cheaper to find a used transit with low milage drive train and just do a swap...expensive to build a turbo motor from scratch..not only can you used the motor but also the brake drums and parts to update and upgrade your brakes and steering..Look at 89 and up flex and rts's with the 671ta ddec...lot's of cities are running them and they are really cheap at the auctions...gg04 |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 8:10 pm: | |
I hope people don't take some of these opinions above as true, I am reading a lot of B.S. here. |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 8:45 pm: | |
Geoff,
Thanks for your expert input on this subject.
By the way,Is there any truth to DDA getting away from the series 50,s and 60,s and going with german merc engines for future Engine models?
John |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 9:31 pm: | |
I read an article from one of the trucking magazines concerning meeting the new emission standards.Detroit Diesel is planning to phase out the 60 series around 2010 or 2012. Will be using german design mercedes diesels in their place.Did not mention the 50 series or in bus use. maybe they will still use them there like they did the 71 and 92 series after they began to discontinue their use in trucks. |
Phil Dumpster
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 11:56 pm: | |
Ok, you'll have to post a picture of a Flxible Metro with inline 6-71TA before I'll believe you. None of the Flxible production lists I have looked at show that engine as being available in their busses, and no transit agency would go to the trouble to retrofit one into such a coach. Retrofit to modern 4 cycle power would be believable, but not to an engine that hasn't been used in transit service in decades.
Flxibles came off the line with the 8V71, 6V71, 6V92 and their turbo/aftercooled counterparts, and the Cummins VTB903, all mated to the V730 and V731. Starting late 80s they could be had with Cummins L10 with a Voith 863, early 90s Cummins M11 with the Voith 863, and starting 1994 to the end Detroit Series 50 with a VR731.
At no time did they come with an inline 6 Detroit Series 71 engine off the production line.
So, until you post a picture showing the engine and noting the operator, fleet number and serial number, I'm going to assume you are either blowing a lot of smoke or you don't know what you are talking about.
For what it's worth, my 6V92TA has no "uncontrollable vibration problem" caused by its design. From idle to full throttle it's smooth as silk.
For such a weak and defective engine it seems weird that it was Greyhound's workhorse through the 1980s. Lord only knows how many transit agencies used them in their front line service coaches in day-in, day-out, start-stop city driving. |
Phil Dumpster2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:09 am: | |
The preceeding message is a bit harsher than it was meant. I was in a foul mood at the moment and I don't have an account here so I can't edit the post.
I would like to see a picture of such engine installation, though, as the production lists don't make any mention of it and it seems unlikely that Flxible would use an inline Detroit when they had a perfectly functional design using the 6V71 block.
If they did, then it would have been mighty strange to drive a modern ADB design bus that sounds like an Old Look. Sorta like flying a 767 that sounds like a DC3. |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 9:53 am: | |
http://www.transitsales.com/inventory.html Phil go to this link and look at flexs with 671ta's they have been around since 89...good to know my bus doesn't exsist....Hmmm..fun to drive though..reason I hardly ever post here anymore...gg04 |
RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:23 am: | |
Phil -
IIRC, over on one of the yahoo groups, there's a fellow who's got an ex-Los Angeles RTD Flx Metro w/ a 6-71TA in it. Seems like they had a bunch of them. Will see if I can find the group & fellow's name.
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 1:58 pm: | |
I would think that if you called tenders on a big enough fleet of busses you would get bids on any specs you wanted to write.
A lot of manufacturers have a subsidiary company or a contrator who will take a partially completed vehicle and make whatever additions are special order. |
Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 2:47 pm: | |
I Googled it. Here's a roster showing 6-71s in '92 Flx Metro "C"... dunno about TA.
http://www.btco.net/Rosters/currrost.html
Go down to units 9201-9250
Pertaining to original thread, are these T-drive mills? V-drives would have to spin the other way, I think.
BB |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 3:08 pm: | |
Yes Brian they are 6L71ta ddec...and left handed...Not sure that flex ever built a t drive transit..did in intercity .. posted TSI's site all you have to do is call them and they will give you serial numbers, who the came from and how much...Just kinda high priced...just a place for Phil to look.....gg04 Just Us.... |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 3:12 pm: | |
Geoff, just noticed you tossed a handgrenade in and ran...Who is this aimed at??? Realy want to know......gg04 |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 5:37 pm: | |
It wasn't you, gg04, I was just cautioning people about separating fact from fiction/opinion. |
RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:14 pm: | |
Phil -
Got one pic from the guy that's got a Flx Metro w/ the 6L71TA in it, and he's going to send me a few more. I'll post them here, or will send direct to you, if you'll email me off the board. Just click on my name in blue above.
Stand by. . .
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA
PS: GG04 - Where are you located?? |
gg04
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:21 pm: | |
Just checking Geoff...LOL Just tired of people on this board telling me you can't do that ,not possible when I already have... I'm in Gulfport Mississippi..RJ... gg04 |
John Rigbyj
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:34 pm: | |
gg04,
It must be well over a year ago since I saw your 671TA installation and the well engineered radiator fan shroud.
After seeing your installation I believe that the 671TA for power is the very best and easiest modification for the 4104.
Right or wrong I see the 671 as a very strong work horse and I feel all those bearings can handle the TA modification and increase in HP well.
671 Has 7 Main bearings.
871 Has 6 Main bearings.
8v92 Has 6 Main bearings.
6v92 Has 4 Main Bearings.
John |
mclough
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:20 pm: | |
guys,
thank you for all your input. from all i have read i want to go with the 671 ta option for lower weight and less cosat same tranny . $4k to almost double hp from this 2v head to a 300hp would be good. less downshifting up hills and more tourque up them as well. probably pull most hills in 3rd instead of 1st.
morgan |
Phil Dumpster2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 4:45 am: | |
Anyone have a picture yet? I've seen many times where someone is talking about a particular Detroit engine using nomenclature which isn't correct. Don't know how many times I've seen people use 6V92 when they really mean the turbocharged and aftercooled version, or the 8-92 which probably never existed.
Then there are those who say an L stands for incline mount, or laydown configuration, or inline. Take your pick.
Post pics, please. |