| Author |
Message |
Jay Smith
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 9:05 pm: | |
I would like to have a covered 50a receptacle mounted in the side of my bus, then when hooking up, plug the female end of a standard 50a extention cord into said receptacle.
Possible? Yes/No?
What are my other options?
Thanks in advance.
Jay Smith
87 SaftLiner |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 9:29 pm: | |
Possible, but won't it be "hot" when you have the genset or inverter going? |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 10:24 pm: | |
Jay,
There are no male bulkhead connectors made for the NEMA 14-50R type cord end, which is what I assume you mean by a "standard 50a extension cord."
Most converters that want to use a 240v, 50a bulkhead connection on the coach for a detachable cord use a marine twist-to-lock style on the coach end, with the NEMA 14-50P on the campground end.
This whole thing was recently hashed out on this board, here:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/10339.html?1117878462
HTH,
-Sean |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 10:55 pm: | |
Sean - have been following your blog - Its a nice trip from cedar city to the east entrance of the GC - climbing from the heat of the desert to the cool shady drive up to Jacob's Lake then back down through the Vermillion's and crossing Navaho gorge - did you stop and peek over the old bridge? - not for those , like me , w/ vertigo - Niles |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 11:50 pm: | |
Jay-
Jack Conrad had a nice idea for the shoreline. You can see his
excellent work here.
It's a whole lot less expensive than those marine type plugs! |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 11:58 pm: | |
I have the marine connector on the side of my bus. I like the syle of having the cord come out the bottom of the bay better. Fred Hobe uses the system of having a 50 amp and a 30 amp cord with the end mounted in the bay in a separate terminal box with a NEMA 14-50R receptacle on each cord and one more outlet for the generator. A short RV 50 amp cord with the Male NEMA 14-50 plug is pluged into the desired power source. I have a 50 ft 50 Amp cord with a Marinco receptacle that plugs into a bulkhead connection on the bus. IT IS WAY TO HEAVY. With Fred's system, you just pull out the almount of cord you neen and don't have to handle all that weight and extra dirty cord. Also, I believe the newest Prevost conversions have gone to having everything come out under a bay for a cleaner look. The bulkhead fitting may look dated. And there is the price. The Marinco type plug and receptacle are about $80 each.
I believe I would modify his system in only one way. I do like having a ship/shore switch inside so I can run the generator if Park power is low or fails. So I would eliminate the generator outlet in the bay and use a manual ship/shore switch for the generator. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 6:06 am: | |
If using the marine style plug in the side of the coach , only the Hubbel should be considered.
The Marinco and other Hubbel copys is very inferior in terms of the construction,
You get what you pay for , and the Hubbel uses Monel contactors , the cheapos use SS.
There is a HUGE difference in the current carrying ability between these metals.
Use the SS , draw a big current for a time , and the plastic housing will melt .
WE use 2 RV power cords , the 30a for 99% of the time as its lighter to pull from the old Air cond bay.The house ends at least are all copper.
The "50A 240V " cord is only used for a long stay at the rare campground that actually HAS that much power. One or two a year.
The house 4 wire (240) is "converted" to the RV 120v with a cheater plug. The red and black are wired together , so the single black of the 120v services both 120v legs of the coach.
The only place we use a 30A or 50A marine plug is to pick up power at a boatyard or marina , where we feed it to the std RV power cord .
AS KISS as I could figure out to do it.
Many non moving coaches that spend months at "destination parks" seem to be willing to drag out two 50A marine power hoses , and use marine entrances , but its a 2X a year setup for most.
With 3 or 4 air cond and electric cooktops ,I guess its their simplest choice.
FAST FRED |
Lew Poppleton (Lewpopp)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 7:36 am: | |
Hey Fast Fred, did you have to milk the chickens this morning? You're up awful early. I thought I was the only old man that got up early for no reason.
I am interested in maybe installing electric wipers. Number one, I mean having you do it and Number two, what are the benefits of 2 speed over single speed?
Is it difficult to wire the new electric replacing the air operated ones?
Thanks, Lewpopp |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 8:12 am: | |
Lew,
Electric wipers are easy to wire. 12 or 24 volt positive to the switch. Wire(s) from the switch to wiper motor and make sure the wiper motor is grounded to the chassis. Even better than 2 speed is 2 speed with intermittant function. This allows occasional sweep when following trucks on a wet road or very light rain. International Bus & Parts sells a complete kit or you can do like I did, find an old school bus, remove the wipers, modify them fit and install them in you bus. Hope this helps, Jack |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 9:18 am: | |
Actually my fittings are Hubbel but all I was able to find when I wanted another cord end was Marinco. Thanks for the information on the difference.
There are a whole lot of parks with 50 amp service. Many people other than Fred will find themselves using the 50 amp cord regularly. Some of us actually LIVE in Florida or Texas during the Summer.
Look for a cord (possible used) with the NEMA 14-50P molded on. I have found setups where the electric box around the outlet kept an ad-on plug from fitting. |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 1:17 pm: | |
Niles,
Yes, we walked the old bridge and peered over, in spite of my acrophobia :-)
We even talked about standing on the old bridge, and taking a photo of Odyssey crossing the new bridge, with the canyon in the background. If we had stayed at Lees Ferry as planned, we might have done it, but after we blasted out of there, we just wanted to make headway.
Getting back to the subject of power cords, notwithstanding FF's suggestion that the #6 cord might only be used a couple times per year, we have found that we need to use the big cord sometimes even when only 30 amp or even 20 amp service is provided, just to keep the voltage drop manageable. Even though the dogbone may be #10, that's only a few inches, and the drop in the cord itself ends up being a big factor.
I did a write-up on one of our voltage-drop experiences (FWIW), here:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/05/its-another-beautiful-sunny-day-here.html
-Sean |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 2:15 pm: | |
Sean,
Newbie with a just purchased 4104. I've followed your Busnuts and blog comments and am impressed by your electrical expertise. I am a shade tree electrician with a lot to learn.
The interesting thing in your link to me is the adjustable inverter. Do you mean you can actually decrease the inverter amp output and keep the voltage the same even though it is a bit low? Fascinating!
However, I don't understand why AC is going into the inverter, or am I reading this wrong? My knowledge of inverters is zilch except for the obvious that they convert DC to AC or at least to pulsating DC. |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:59 am: | |
Gus,
Most inverters have an AC input in addition to the AC output.
When present, one purpose of the AC input is to "pass through" AC power (from the grid, which would be shore power on a coach, or from a generator, for example) when it is available. When the AC input power drops out, the inverter begins inverting to supply the loads.
Some inverters also have internal transfer switches, to select between two different AC inputs (for example, shore and generator).
Lastly, many inverters also include a battery charger function, so that they may recharge the battery bank when AC power is available.
The "load support" function that I discussed is a feature of some advanced inverters, including ours, whereby the inverter will run loads in excess of available input AC power, supplementing as necessary by drawing from the batteries.
For example, let's say the available input power is 30 amps of AC. (You need to tell the inverter how much input AC is available, which is done using one of the setup menus, or, on some inverters, a switch setting.) Let's further say that you are running a TV, some lamps, etc. for a total of 15 amps. 15 amps of the AC input power will be passed through to those loads, and 15 amps of input power will be available for the battery charger to use to charge the batteries.
Now let's say that your air conditioner comes on, and it draws 20 amps. Now you have a total of 35 amps of load, but still only 30 amps of input power available. The inverter will pass all 30 amps through to the loads, and will also draw energy from the batteries and invert power, synchronizing it to the waveform of the input power, to supply the additional 5 amps. The battery charger will, of course, be off.
A load-supporting inverter thus allows you to use a small input connection, such as 30 or even 15 amps, yet still run most of the appliances in the coach. When the load is greater than the available input, the inverter will supply the overage from the batteries, and when the load is less than the available input, the inverter will replenish the batteries. As long as the average current draw (over time) is less than the available input, things can run this way indefinitely. If the average draw is greater than the available input, then the batteries will eventually deplete to the point where you will need to find an alternate means of charging them.
In order for an inverter to work in this manner, it must be capable of synchronizing its output waveform exactly to the waveform of the input AC. For this reason, the feature is usually only found on inverters that are "true sine wave" models, and often these inverters have been designed for "grid-tie" applications (a system whereby the inverter operator can sell power back to the utility grid, usually from solar panels, wind, or hydroelectric generation).
HTH,
-Sean |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:48 am: | |
"I am interested in maybe installing electric wipers. Number one, I mean having you do it and Number two, what are the benefits of 2 speed over single speed? "
Your air setup has almost INFINITE speeds , so a step to electric is a step down in utility and reliability.
If you get a rebuild kit , use a bit of teflon grease while installing the O rings your system will be good for more than another 30 40 years.
You can upgrade the air units by finding an intermittant controll valve from a truck.
Most hassles with air is in a very light mist.
Air has the complete advantage in icing or freezing rain. If the wipers get overloaded & stuck , clearing the windscreen is all that needed. Sometimes the electric stuff lets the internal smoke out when overloaded.
Your Choice!
FAST FRED |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:55 am: | |
For folks that want the "ultimate" power cord the Anchor folks make the best wire and Hubbel the best ends.
The Anchor wire is all fine stranded and tinned the full run of every conductor.
Best of all is the wire is 10% oversized for each grade , further reducing voltage drop and wire heating.
I have been using it on boats for over 50 years and with a good terminal end , makes great DC wiring inside the coach too.
Only downside is you only get what you PAY for , and the best marine grade ain't cheap ...except in the long run.
Do it right ,one time , never mess with it again!!
Works for me,
FAST FRED |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:51 pm: | |
Sean,
Thanks, I'm out of town for a few days and didn't get a chance to check the BB yesterday.(Not in the bus, haven't gotten it home yet)
Your explanation is so clear that even I can understand it!
It seems to me that many if not most questions on these two BBs concern inverters, shore power and house battery hookups so I think I need to get a good book on the subject before I start installing a system.
My bus has no house batteries or inverters, just a gen and bus batteries. This is good because now I can do it the way I want.
We bought the bus to replace our airplane for traveling. We plan to drive two-three days then go to an RV park for water, dumping and general replenishing. Staying at one site more than two days is not in our plan now so I'm not sure I will ever have house batteries.
Your inverter sounds ideal but it must be very costly. However, if I get an inverter this sounds like the way to go. A battery charging feature appears to be almost a necessity with this inverter.
I assume that the grid selector switch won't allow the use of shore power and gen power at the same time?
What type and how many house batteries do you use?
Thanks again,
Gus |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 1:38 am: | |
Gus,
We do extensive boondocking, so we have a large battery bank, eight size 8D glass-mat batteries arranged in a 24 volt configuration. We use a Xantrex/Trace SW4024 inverter.
To answer your transfer switch question, the internal transfer switch in the inverter will select only one or the other and will not allow them to be accidentally cross-connected. However, most inverters have only a 120-volt transfer switch (switching one hot leg) and usually do not switch the neutral. This makes the internal switch unsuitable for applications involving two hot legs, such as found on coaches with a typical "50 amp" setup. Usually, and external transfer switch will need to be added to the system in this case.
-Sean |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 6:05 am: | |
The "best ' inverter for the full timers is one that can suppliment the poor power hose supply when needed , and run both air cond on the road.
About $4000 for the big Trace, with charger.
For less utility , no pass thru power , no inverter air cond a really CHEAP invereter with a seperate SMART charger may be fine.
The Zantrex 1750 is a cheapo unit (about $200) yet it will power the microwave ,or big TV and sat reciever, or run power tools or charge the Mikita battery.
This is enough for a limited budget with limited needs.
Simplest FOOLPROOF method of changing from shore power to gen set or inverter is a set of 3 sockets in the coach and a plug you manually move to where the juice is.
Works for me,
FAST FRED |
Jim Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:17 am: | |
If you want something a little better than the three socket/one plug system, you can buy or build an AC panel that uses an AC circuit breaker for each source. There is a slot with a sliding piece that forces you to shut one off before closing another (it has only enough of an opening for one breaker's toggle to be closed at any time.) I have seen these set up for either two or three sources. One advantage is that you can use different size breakers if, say your generator power is 50 amps but your inverter is 30. If you are a 30 amp 120V bus, use double pole breakers. If you are 50 amp 120/240, use three pole breakers (switching both hot & neutral).
Now these breakers are not hour normal household breakers though they function the same. These breakers have threaded studs for the AC wires and mount through the panel with two screws per section (double pole would have 4 screws). One manufacturer is Airpax but I believe there are others.
If you live near the coast you may be able to find surplus stores that handle boat builder stuff. That's where I get mine. You may be able to find these on the internet too. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:10 pm: | |
Thanks to all, this certainly gives me a nice list of options. |
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