| Author | Message | ||
| DebDav (Debdav)
Rating: N/A |
I visited another busnut in the middle of his conversion. He is planning on using a residential toilet for his coach. He has very large fresh and black tanks so that is not a problem. What is (or are) the reasons that we cannot/donot use residential toilets? 1. Lose water seal? - sinks/shower do not 2. Supply/storage problems? - big tanks 3. Sloshing out of bowl? - Ah HA! 4. Others: Just curious | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
There is no such thing as having enough water, so a house type toilet will be unsuitable for a couple of reasons, such as too big, uses too much water, but my major concern would be the tank is not meant to withstand sidewards loading, such as if you have a panic stop. In addition to slopping some water out I can see the china failing due to stresses and then you have a real problem. Hundreds of thousands of RVers and the RV manufacturers can't all be wrong. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
I've seen residential toilets that were an all one-piece toilet... The tank is an integral part of the toilet itself... No reason one couldn't have something like that. Especially if you use one of those 1/2 gallon pressure flush kits you can get. I actually thought about doing something like this because... well.. I'm a big guy, I need a big ring around my arse. The typical RV toilet just doesn't feel too good on my behind, if ya know what I mean! I will be using one until I can afford the setup I want in the meantime though... but the setup I mentioned is what I intend to do eventually. My bathroom will be fairly large... I'll have a jacuzzi bathtub... But my rig is also 20 feet longer than most of you out there. Mine's the 60 foot beast... ;) Cheers! -Mac | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter Rating: N/A |
guess,it depends on 'how' you are going to use the bus...90% of the time ,I'm hooked up to water & sewer...I vote for house ,china toliet,have had the r.v. units & the flapper,starts sticking ,won't hold water,won't seal off smells from blackwater tank | ||
| Craig Smith (Craigs)
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I have a household 1.6 gal flush in my MC8 and in my 91 Wanderlodge. They work great, are easy to keep clean and knowing that we are using more than an RV style toilet, adjust our usage to suit. I wouldn't have an RV toilet. But, that's just me. They don't slosh out, they don't break when I brake. FWIW Craig S | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh)
Rating: N/A |
Macgyver- The RV toilets use a standard toilet seat so going that route won't mean a thing. If there is a problem with smells, use a marine head. They maintain a constant seal, just like a residential toilet but have no tank, no sloshing and use water similar to a RV toilet. Even the major converters use marine or high-end RV stuff. If the residential toilet were better, they would certainly have put it in some conversions. There IS a reason they aren't used. Jim | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A |
Jim... That may be true, but the type of toilet seat I prefer is the elongated seat, with the split in the front center for us boys... I don't care for the smaller seats... My... uh... manly parts... They don't like having to be poked through a little hole and scraped against the seat on the way up! Now granted, I'm not overweight by much... it's just that it seems "standard" toilets -- RV or residential -- just don't fit me. I prefer the "commercial" type toilets you find at movie theaters, gas stations, restaurants, etc... It's just a personal preference. If I can find a marine type toilet with the right dimensions to fit my rear end and keep the rest of my manhood happy... I'll go that route... but unless I find that, I'll go with the type toilet that suits my physical needs...  -Mac | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
One reason no major converter or coach manufacturer uses a household toilet is that it is explicitly prohibited by code (ANSI 1192) which makes it against the law for them to do so in most states. The legality of a private individual doing this is a matter of great debate -- let's not open that can of worms here. The reason it is prohibited in the code is straightforward. Actually, the specific prohibition is against trap-seal type units, and the reason is that, while under way, the trap can slosh dry, or at least no longer seal. When this happens, gasses in the waste tank can enter the living space. In addition to being foul, this does pose a life safety threat, as there are circumstances under which dangerous amounts of methane gas can be generated in the waste tank, posing a fire or explosion hazard in the coach. In addition to this principle reasoning, there is the additional reasoning that any toilet not explicitly tested by the manufacturrer for use in a moving vehicle can, as previously noted, have failure modes related to lateral forces on the unit beyond their design factors. Since trap-seal toilets can not legally be used in a coach or travel trailer, no manufacturer of a trap-seal toilet is going to bother testing for this use. It is interesting to note, BTW, that "mobile homes" also known as "manufactured homes" are required to have trap-seal toilets, but the rules for moving them around call for the toilets to be empty and secured (and manufactured homes travel with no connection from the toilet to any kind of tank). Consequently, many china toilets carry HUD approvals for use in these types of homes. Personally, I can't imagine in my wildest dreams why anyone would want to use nearly two gallons of water for every flush in an RV. There are many high-quality, porcelain toilets available for RV use that have a houshold appearance and use standard toilet seats. FWIW. -Sean | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Macqyver: You are quickly leaning the fundamental rule for bus converting. Do it your way. Most things can be changed at low cost (compared to the price of the bus) and when an idea doesn't work to your satisfaction, try something else. Ten or twenty years from now you will be on the boards telling the newbies about the things you did that were successful and maybe even the ones that weren't. | ||
| DebDav (Debdav)
Rating: N/A |
Sean: If a residential toilet with a 'trap seal' violates code when installed in a recreational vehicle, why does the same code not ban sinks and showers with 'P' traps? Most toilets have a taller column of water in the bowl than a sink has in a 'P' trap. Sloshing in a sink 'P'trap would be the same as sloshing in a toilet 'trap seal'. Is this the reason that black and grey tanks are most times separate? Some RV mfgs plumb the bath sink into the black tank for additional water. This could allow the bath sink 'P trap'to slosh dry and cause gas backflow. Some people have only one waste tank. All 'P traps' can slosh and cause gas backflow. I am trying to make discussion here and also to make decisions. I am not trying to cause explosions or 'flames'. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Some people won't tear the tag off a mattress for fear of imprisonment. I tear the tags off. I wouldn't use a home-type toilet in the RV, but not out of fear of our gubberment, but due to the home-type toilet's enormous appetite for water. To use more than a gallon of water to flush urine (umpteen times a day), is a total waste of fresh water.... and having to dump the waste tank more often, gets old -real- fast. Sealand makes a very nice porcelain toilet that conventional seats (split or otherwise) fit . They use a minimum of water, and are easy to clean and maintain. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
DebDav, There are three reasons why there is not the same level of concern regarding sink and shower traps drying out than exists regarding toilets: The first and most important reason is that toilets do not have vents, while all other traps must be vented. I know that many people here will jump on this and point out that AAV's may be used in certain places instead of vents, but, and this is the most important point, even when an AAV is used, there MUST be a direct vent through the roof between the trap and the tank. So if there is a gas buildup in the tank, and it tries to back up through the DWV plumbing toward one of the traps, there will be a more direct and larger (or at least the same size) path up through the roof, so little of the gas should make it past the trap, even if it is dry. The second reason is related, and that is that the passageway in a toilet is 3", while the black tank is permitted to be vented with a 1.5" vent. So in the event the toilet trap becomes dry, you now have a bigger flow rate possible into the cabin than out through the vent. The third reason is that dangerous gasses are more likely to form in the black tank than the gray. This motivation loses some ground when a combined tank is used, but all the DWV requirements are much, much stricter when a combined tank is used. For example, wet venting is permitted in an RV gray water system (even though most residential codes forbid this practice in fixed dwellings), however wet venting is not allowed if a combined gray/black tank is used. Notwithstanding Mr. JTNG's opinion on the subject, I highly recommend you obtain a copy of ANSI 1192 (available for about $40 on line, or viewable for free at many libraries) and read up on the DWV plumbing requirements (and everything else, for that matter). Whatever your opinion is on whether the code applies to you legally or not, it is still founded on pretty solid engineering principles, and you probably will not go wrong by following it. HTH, -Sean | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry, but I cannot find the exact reference in ANSI 1192 that forbids motorhome manufacturers from using residential style toilets, only that a unit has to maintain a seal under certain (unspecified) enviromental conditions. I believe most manfacturers continue to use old fashioned camper toilets, because they promote the idea of efficiency. I have been using a residential 1.4 gal. toilet for almost 5 years, and it has never leaked or sloshed out, nor has it lost its seal and allowed foul odors into my coach. What do you have in your conversion? Or do you have a conversion on the road, with at least 20,000 miles since completion, so you can speak from experience? With a marine unit you have to flush twice- once to clear the first usage, and the second time to clear the balance that you scrubbed off the sides from a poor flush the first time. If you don't it stinks and dries and is unsightly and a biological hazard. Thetford, Sealand etc. all build those atrocious, malodorous units that they claim to be efficient, and without fail thay have to be flushed twice to do a proper, sanitary job, thereby negating the original intent. I've tried both, and will take my residential (one flush) unit any day, since I HATE scrubbing a shitty toilet! This thread comes up about once every 5 or 6 months, and always generates a lot of controversy, from uninformed people who have no empirical knowledge. I've been through all of the Plumbing Codes and have yet to find a specific reference that forbids the use of a residential toilet in a motorhome. There are requirements for a continued seal, but it doesn't say how that is to be effected, only that it must. Only in your wildest dreams would the small holding tanks in a motorhome ever produce enough methane (or any other) gas to become even remotely hazardous. When a tank has only a little effluent in it, leaving room for gas, the volume of waste is too small to produce it. If it has a lot in it , thereby having a greater chance of producing the gas, there is not enough free volume left in the tank to become a hazard. Perhaps if your conversion had 500, or 600 gallons of effluent, you may have some reason for concern. For those that tout doing it your way, you will be in for a rude awakening someday when you face litigation for Code violations. Most likely from the guy you sell it to, (because he has to fix it) not from a Code Enforcement Agency, although I have been through three Code inspections in three separate parks. After you get all hooked up, the local Electrical Inspector or Plumbing Inspector shows up for a friendly chat and a "look-see" at your "HOME-MADE CAMPER" (emphasis provided by the Inspector.) BTDT, Have a Happy Father's Day! Cheers...JJ | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A |
JJ, Here is is, straight from the code: 7.4.2.2 Water Closets (Flush Toilets). Flush toilets shall not be installed in a system that incorporates a body waste holding tank. Note that any RV that has a black tank, or a black/gray combined tank, meets this criterion and a "Flush toilet" may not be used (flush toilet is defined elsewhere in the code, and it includes all the types we normally consider household). If you don't have a tank (meaning whatever you flush goes right out the sewer connection), then you can use a flush toilet. But that kinda makes using the toilet when you're not at a sewer connection difficult, don't you think? To answer your question about my own setup, yes, my conversion is complete and on the road, and yes, I have put more that 20,000 miles on it, and I happen to have a Microphor Microflush RV/Marine toilet that uses two quarts per flush. We never have any more (or less) of a problem with material remaining in the bowl than we did with the low-flush residential units we had in our condo before we went full-time. Also note that I explicitly stated that there is great debate about whether the code can be enforced against a private individual doing a conversion, and I refuse to be sucked into this debate yet again. I can state with some certainty, however, that the code does apply to actual manufacturers, at least in several states with whose laws I am quite familiar. I note, by the way, that when it comes to electrical issues, you seem to have a good grasp of the code, and have been vocal here about why it should generally be followed. Why the different posture on plumbing? Also, DebDav, an addendum to my previous message: I want to be clear that when I said toilets do not have vents, I meant that typical RV toilet installations do not have vents, and they empty directly into the tank, which is vented elsewhere. In a fixed dwelling, toilets are, of course, vented. The vent is an upward continuation through the roof of the soil stack. -Sean | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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I think we need to find and post a source of marine toilets with big, elongated, seats. They must exist. Larger yachts could not possible use the little SeaLand like I have. Then we could offer some valuable alternatives. Home toilets need a larger flush because they are moving the waste a longer distance. My toilet has to move the waste 18 inches at 45 degrees. SeaLand toilets with the rotating ball type flush valve don't leak down to dry. The water kept in the bowl forms a seal against odor. | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Sean- Not meaning to belabor the "code/legal" issue, or the ramifications thereof.. And yes, as JJ stated, anything's possible when traversing the various States.. including "inspections" by those wishing to induce fear into your heart and maybe grab a few $$ out of your wallet.. And.... Since I have not personally used my "home made" camper yet (to camp), I really do not know what to expect. All that aside... The poster simply wanted to know: "What is (or are) the reasons that we cannot/donot use residential toilets? " And to that effect, I do believe he has all the proper answers. Stating that "the code prohibits it", means nothing to me, or anyone else that thinks like me. Stating the real issues and reasons for not using it, gives it the realism anyone considering the idea, may be convinced by. For example: "Can I tweak the 6v71 governor and go 140mph?" Sean: "The law says you can't go that fast, and you'll be subject to fine." Jtng: "You'll blow the engine if you attempt to rev it beyond it's RPM rating." I'd forget "the law" and cite more meaningful matters to be concerned with, if I really wanted to help.. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Stephen, Microphor, SeaLand, and HeadHuner all make vitreous china toilets with household-type dimensions that will accept elongated, standard-mount seats that one can buy in any home improvement store. All three of these suppliers have web sites with information on their products. -Sean | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
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I have a Thetford Aria toilet I am very happy with. china, elongated bowl, uses between 1 and 2 pints to flush. Use 12v to flush, has a pulsing jet and have not had any trouble with skid marks. two types of flush, the standard which is automatic, and it also allows you set it so it only uses water for as long as you hold the button, so you can use less. Can also fill the bowl if you like. Also has a stting to oopen and hold open the seal, for cleaning or inspection. Nice looking toilet too, but they are not cheap. While I originally thought the house type had merit, having had this one, I have no desire to use a house style. I have 165 gals of fresh water tank, but still feel I want to be able to conserve the water. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Sounds like the kind of toilet I'd like to have myself... got a link? -Mac | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Whom ever controls throne ..... rules the world ..... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
IF a std RV toilet "looses" the seal it is usually due to two things. 1 Someone has closed he ball on toilet paper , and that jams the seal. 2 The water in some areas is REALLY hard and sitting unused for a while the seals get calcified. CLR or other is an almost instant cure. If sliders leave a streak after the toilet is clean , a simple spray with PAM or similar does wonders to keep the creamic bowl no skid. The Home sized Sealand or similar premo heads can be fitted with any house seat you can find in HD. Someday you may want to boondock and a 1/2 pint flush sounds better to me than a 12 pint flush FAST FRED | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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I have a household toilet (low profile Kohler Rialto) in my bus and it works out fine, either boondocking or hooked up. I might also add that if you go with a household toilet and don't like it you can always change it out later-- changing toilets is not a major job. --Geoff '82 RTS CA/AZ | ||
| gg04
Rating: N/A |
Methane gas....roflmao....If holding tank load is no problem use the home style.. no odors, and modern from under 1 and 1/2 gallon to around 1 quart with air flush...Yep gas is a problem...thats why the number one rv product is holding tank odor controller of one type or the other...can't have the bowl go accidently dry...thats why the average rv toilet just dumps straight down into the tank when you open the valve...LOL...marine style work for a while but never saw one the owner hadn't had some kind of problem with..gg04 | ||
| Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
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Think I saw this sign once while travelling: "RV TOILET CHECKPOINT AHEAD, ALL RV'S MUST STOP" The inspectors were wearing hard hats with headlights, masks and carried a plunger and bag of simulated test poop on their belts. Those using residential toilets beware. How about an OutHouse Toad? Bob V. New York | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
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Mac, this is where I bought it from. Kearbey RV, or you can search the web on that name. Their prices are good and so was the service. This toilet comes in two different heights. If I remember right, a 15" tall and a 17" tall (the low or high model). YOu can get a data sheet on it from the Thetford web site. http://www.thetford.com/permanent_aria.cfm I guess after reading the specs again, it uses 1 qt per flush, but you can put it econo mode and use less if you want to. ARIA DELUXE II Featuring ONE-TOUCH Walk-Away Electric Flush $ 529.99 FREE FREIGHT (WITHIN THE 48 STATES) Call 573-785-8259 to order this toilet I thought the Sealand ceramic was also a very good toilet and it was under $200. | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Nice price tag... It's been put on my list of things to get... It's actually what I've been looking for, but gave up trying to find in an RV toilet.... Thanks! -Mac | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
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Sean W. ...Thanks for the actual ANSI reference numbers. I missed it somehow, even looking twice. It is harder to "read" a Code you are not familiar with. I'm an electrician, not a two-hole plumber. I can quote much of the NEC verbatim, but must stagger through the plumbing stuff. I'm not sure I understand the rationale of the requirement. Is it because of excessive water usage? Surely not because of the fear of a loss of sealing, since so many of us have proven that a residential toilet works fine. Of course my 4905 rides much differently than a P-30, 1 ton Chevy Class C, that is top heavy, and overloaded. I built a "post" bus, and only boondock during transit from one location to another. As I stated I've been inspected, but never a mention of a fine, just denied the use of the park. I had to move out, so may have been lucky on that part. ...JJ | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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JJ, Glad I could provide the information. I believe the reasons for the restriction are those I already listed above, though there may be others I am not familiar with. I do think the seal issue is overkill, but, as you know, codes tend to err on the side of caution. -Sean | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Im looking into using a house type to start out with .And my keep it if it works out good. What I want to know using a house type do you need to use a vented drian pipe with it? Also using JJ numbers of 1.4 gal and with my 135 gal water tank I could flush it 96 times before I run out of water. Or what I think 2 people would use it in a few days or so 25 times and only use 35 gal. What about a urinal also I would think you can get away with less then 1/2 a qt of water to get it down the pipe. Im thinking I could just make my own toilet a 3" pipe and a big funnel and a 3" ball valve . Brian 4905 USA | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
"Im thinking I could just make my own toilet a 3" pipe and a big funnel and a 3" ball valve . " (Nope. I'm not gonna' touch this.. But I know someone else will.....) | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
On a serious side... My parents had a home in the country with a weak well supply. They conserved water by using a spray bottle full of bleach... They'd spray a few shots of bleach into the toilet and it'd kill the color and smell of urine instantly. (It also explained why their dog had a white tongue) When I considered using a home toilet for the RV, a local contractor told me that the water saving models did not flush well. They often had to be flushed twice, defeating the water saving concept. The air powered ones were nice. Nice and expensive. And I'd have to have a good deal of compressed air available at all times.... The combustion types sounded ideal, until the cost of energy to burn the waste is considered, along with the high initial cost of the unit.. I ended up buying a Sealand porcelain model with a full seat for that RV.. I'll use the same type in the bus. No fuss, no hassle and no problems with wasted water. | ||
| Jay Smith
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I'm using a 1.6 house model, but consulted with my plumber as to which might be the best choice for me. After his input and some more research, I opted for a Japanese Toto toilet, which is glazed through the entire trap, and can swallow quite a bit on 1.6g. Jay 87 Saftliner | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
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Brian, do you have any idea what a 3 inch stainless steel, Delrin lined ball valve costs? About the same as some Banana Republic's national debt, ... or an RV toilet! ...JJ | ||
| Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
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I have to make this observation about the post talking about using a spray bottle with bleach, sprayed into a toilet to kill the smell of the urine. I would caution against this. Your body produces ammonia which is displaced through your urine, depending on your body's chemistry, the consentration of ammonia varies. Bleach which containes chlorine reacts with ammonia to create toxic fumes. While the amounts of bleach and ammonia may be minimal, In a closed area this could cause some adverse health conditions. I have seen entire buildings evacuated and many persons hospitalized by someone mixing bleach and ammonia based cleaners (in higher consentrations of course). To clean urine stains with bleach is fine, to spray it in standing urine I would recommend against. I don't think in any consentration I would try it in an RV. Bob V. New York | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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if house toliets wern't any good,they wouldn't have made 30 billion,....instead of bleach.....pour a thin layer of veg. oil it stays on top | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Another problem with using bleach is dumping the tanks into a septic system, which is sometimes the case in campgrounds. What I do with my house toilet is pour a little Thetford's RV "campa chem"-- holding tank deodorant that is 100% bio-degradable. It is a nice blue color and keeps the bowl presentable when you don't flush everytime. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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"if house toliets wern't any good,they wouldn't have made 30 billion" Two dogs, that is the most ridiculous argument I have heard in a long time. No one said household toilets weren't any good (for use in houses), only whether they were the right choice for a bus. By your reasoning, since plate glass is far more common than laminated safety glass, we should just use windshields made of plate glass. Or the fact that millions of vehicles have been made with hydraulic brakes means that those brakes are just fine -- why bother with air brakes on our buses? Billions of cigarettes have been made too -- they must be a great product. I think I'll run right out and start smoking. I'm surprised you're willing to show your nick around here: June is almost over -- how is the electric fan test coming along? -Sean | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Jeez Geoff - throw some ice in there, and the way you describe it, sounds like the perfect French cocktail - I'll have a 'Thetford' spritzer with a twist - Niles | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Chlorine and ammonia make some kind of posionous gas. It might be phosgene or something like that. Richard | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
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The most dangerous byproduct is actually chlorine gas, Cl2. The main chemical reaction is: 2NaOCl + 2NH3 -> 2NaONH3 + Cl2 Where "NaOCl" is sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) and "NH3" is ammonia. The chlorine is liberated as a free gas, which causes death by destruction of the respiratory tract. It is very painful. There are some other reactions possible as well: 3NaOCl + NH3 -> 3NaOH + NCl3 which produces a strong base (sodium hydroxide) and an explosive (nitrogen trichloride). A third possible reaction produces hydrazine gas and is strongly exothermic. Which reactions you get depend on the concentrations of bleach and ammonia, and what other chemicals may be in the mix. Chlorine gas is the big killer, though. -Sean | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Ha! That's funny, Niles. But with all the extra water and "Thedford spritzer" added the chore of dumping the black tank is not so bad. Just another side benefit of the household toilet... --Geoff | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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I have had NO problem with house toliets seen....even replace the crummy r.v. toliet in my motorhome...might not work on school bus...but..."I" have a very gentle ride, | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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you guys must have memory problems...what fan test | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
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"what fan test" ...indeed... Aah, the dog bares his teeth, growls, and for once tells the honest truth.... | ||
| DebDav (Debdav)
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I just posted a little question. Sorry to have opened the flood gates. Thanks for the info. I STILL WANT MY BUS BACK! | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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There are no LITTLE questions on BNO - and even if there were, we are certainly capable of making a MAJOR ISSUE out of 'em - LOL - Niles P.S. - Fireworks may come early this year | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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I bought the Aria II for my conversion, It's big and really neat. (actually my wife insisted that was what she wanted and got it!) We lived with a china bowl sea-land for 6 years and it was too hard to find seats that would fit "just right!" And the flush mechanisms always seemed to need repair every year or so under full time use. Not to mention the floods caused by the pedal operated water valve leaking. I like the electronic controls better. | ||
| Randy Davidson Rating: N/A |
DebDav - stop posting dirty questions. Nothing here has changed my mind, anyway. Who says you still HAVE a bus, anyway? Show me a title. :-) | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
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With all this thought going into toilets, you guys must be planning on spening some time on the can. Ross | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter Rating: N/A |
no shit | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Dig deeper Watson, you'll find some at the bottom! -Mac | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Everybody has to sometime. Things Spread with time... Gotta have the right sized butt gasket.... Hanging parts will..... Bigger Targets....... Whats the sense of having one if its too small....... Toilets... What did you think I meant? | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Bob- Re: "Your body produces ammonia which is displaced through your urine, depending on your body's chemistry, the consentration of ammonia varies. Bleach which containes chlorine reacts with ammonia to create toxic fumes. " WOW! Thanks! I'm going to tell my wife to stop bleaching my jocky shorts. Man-o-man. I'm a walking time-bomb.... (I'm gonna' take these off right now) (Whoops - - - COUGH - -GAsp) | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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just tell her to leave your skid marks where they are |