| Author |
Message |
Dave Geoghegan (Docjah)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:00 pm: | |
Hi,
I bought a bus for conversion in Tennesee. I drove it home to New York (1200 miles). Ran fine , Used 2 gallons of oil.
I took it to a mechanic and he recommended a reman engine (15K) and a new tranny (5K).
Couple of questions:
1) Does this seem unreasonable? (It does to me)
2)Know anyone in Eastern NY who works on these engines/Buses?
3) I've got aline on a used 8v92 engine , will it easily go into this bus?
Thanks,
Dave |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:07 pm: | |
What's the matter with the engine you have? |
Bill K.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:18 pm: | |
I installed a 8v92 in my mc8, there is a lot of work involved, but it sure is nice. You will need the bigger radiators and bigger cooling fans, you will have to shorten the the drive shaft one inch. You will have to change the exz. to 5" in and out. If you have to auto transmission you should change the tork convertor, You will have to move the transmission mounts back one inch. you will need a different front motor mount. If you have the auto tranm. you will have to modify the mogulator cable to the tranmission the turbo is in the road. other then that a piece of cake. But again the power sure is nice, it makes the hill less steep but you also have to feed it. |
Dave Geoghegan (Docjah)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:19 pm: | |
The mechanic said it "puffed white smoke" and was unreliable. I felt that a couple of quarts every 12 hours seemed a lot. He also said he thought the liners were going.
It does start fine and seems to run good. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:33 pm: | |
If it were me, I wouldn't put more into the bus than the bus is worth.
You can buy an MC9 or newer, for what that remanufactured
engine would cost... And then the tranny too? Egads, man.
White puffs? Like water? Not grey, like oil, or black, like fuel...?
Ok... so maybe a head gasket? Someone here with knowledge
can probably offer some other things to look for, that cause
a white puff.. The oil consumption could be from a low grade
and thin oil being used, rather than the SAE40, that DD calls
for. My MC9 leaked and smoked more when it had 10w30
in the damned thing... I changed it to Rotella 40w and what
a difference!
What's the tranny not doing that a new one is needed?
I'd get a second opinion from a real bus mechanic, before I
go tossing big bucks into an old bus. |
Dale Waller
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:59 pm: | |
Get a second opinion, sounds like the guy just wants your money. any good mechanic will do some checks before a overhaul,like check compression, oil analysis, air boxes spitting oil out. wrong oil? oil usage can be a number of things any leakage can be confused with high oil consumption. have you checked the coolant level has the filters been serviced? alot needs checked before just throwing $$$ at it. I agree with John does the tranny shift smooth? fluid clean? why a new one? |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 11:08 pm: | |
Before you spend big bucks, drive it down to Luke at US Coach in NJ and get another opinion. It may be fine to use the engine and transmission as they are for a few more years. Luke always says that the bus is the foundation of the house but there is a lot more to the bus than engine and transmission. You may need a little time to find out what you need to fix to find out if the total is worth it. How about brakes, air bags, shocks, front end, wiring? Don't rush to spend money until you know what you have.
I bought a 4905A, fixed a few things like the steering pump and a few air leaks and then decided to buy a later 4905A, acutally an H8H with automatic and a newer engine. Then I ended up buying a Prevost older conversion that I liked and sold both of the 4905s unconverted. If I had spent every penny to fix eveything I could find to fix on the first two, I would not have gotten my money back at all. As it is, I did OK. Learn from your bus before you spend. It can be much cheaper to buy a bus that comes out of a fleet with good maintenance, low time engine and transmission and all the features like automatic and power steering that you want than to add all of those features to a needy bus.
Put up some curtains, a few jugs of water, an air mattress, a portapotty, a camp stove
an ice chest and camp and enjoy this summer, then decide. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:00 am: | |
I 2nd Stephen's recommendation. The WHITE smoke problem is not serious if it is only for a short time period at cold start, even grey is not all that serious. Blue is serious and if constant blue, you may be looking at a rebuild. Black is correctable in most cases. Go see Luke, you're relatively close, and it could save u a lot of money.
Just a personal opinion, but no way would I spend 15-20k on mechanicals for an 8, and especially one that is not converted already. For a lot less u can buy newer, better, and in good mechanical condition. For 7-8k you should be able to get an out of frame rebuild on the engine and 3-4 tops on a tranny rebuild if it is an auto 4 spd. |
Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 3:23 am: | |
I live about an hour west of you and have used Penn Power (certified Detroit and Allison service) in Syracuse. When I was looking I also found D&W Diesel on Wharehouse Row right in Albany. I didn't use them, but being so close it might be worth giving them a visit.
I agree with the others here, don't spend big money, especially before you know whats wrong, can be something as simple as the wrong weight oil.
Been through this, our first bus (6V92)used about 1 qt per hour and could obscure a city block. Rebuild estimate 10K, replaced that one with a bus that uses virtually no oil and is in overall better mechanical condition.
I would be more than happy to ride out sometime and give my two cents. Just drop me an e-mail.
Bob V. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:42 am: | |
If the bus runs fine a gal of oil is $7.00 at the DD fellows.
It takes an awful lot of $7.00 to get to "a reman engine (15K) ".
Save your money , service the coach PROPERLY , drive a few years and then decide.
The smoke could easily be from sitting , or car oil.
FAST FRED |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 8:09 am: | |
Hi, Dave
You bought a used bus, now you want to buy a used engine? Take your bus to Luke and get a bottom line opinion before you spend any more money. A different bus with what you want, maybe already converted, is probably the way to go.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA/AZ |
David Dulmage (Daved)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 8:39 am: | |
It's not unusual for an 8V71 to have some white smoke on start up, particularly if it has been sitting. If multi-grade oil is being used in the engine it will probably result increased oil consumption. Except for extreme cold situations Detroit Dieseil requirements are to only use single grade oil (such as SAE40) meeting API CF-2 specs. Detailed information on lubricating oil requirements is available on the Detroit Diesel website. Changing to this oil will reduce consumption somewhat.
Detroit Diesels are not the cleanest engines in terms of leaking and using lubricating oil. To paraphrase what someone else already said (probably on this board), there are no rusty engine cradles on Detroit Diesel powered buses.
It the engine is running well, has reasonable oil pressure and is not overheating I wouldn't rush into a rebuild job. |
Dave Geoghegan (Docjah)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 10:54 am: | |
Hi,
Wow, thanks for all the help folks.
A little bit more info:
Oil/Smoke etc. - We were using 10w30 in it. I'll certainly change to a SAE40 and see if it makes any difference. My biggest concern here is that after it's been runnning for a couple of hours you can see about 2 drops per minute drip out of it.
How do I check the oil pressure , I don't think I have a gauge for it ( I'm not at the bus though)?
What I want to do with the bus - I don't want to put in a reman etc. unless I have to. I've take the bus to another shop to have them look at it. My feeling here is what I really need is some one who knows what they are doing with it ( Luke?).
Tranny - Seems to slip a little bit , takes a little while to get up to speed.
Thanks a ton for the super helpful advice.
Thanks,
Dave |
David Dulmage (Daved)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:18 am: | |
There is usually a mechanical gauge in the engine compartment to the left of the engine. This gauge is in addition to the electrical gauge which is located on the left on your instrument panel. Generally the mechanical gauge will read higher than the electrical one.
Dave Dulmage |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:50 am: | |
Dave at least half your oil consumtion was due to 10W-30 - change it immediately to 40W CF-2 as stated above - Niles |
Dave Geoghegan (Docjah)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 2:57 pm: | |
Hi,
Another Update: The current mechanic sais it has many oil leaks and there is "excessive oil in the air box". He sais he would not work on it , except to install a new/used/reman engine.
Anyone have a phone # for Luke at USA Coach?
I've seen a few postings which imply I could get a running perhaps later model bus in the 10K range, Anybody have any places I could start here? I've only used ebay , and 15-17K seems the minimum for a > 1980 MCI or Eagle.
Thanks,
Dave |
jimmci9 #2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:16 pm: | |
i'd recommend finding anothe mechanic.... doesn't sound like the 1 you've got is willing ...... btw.. there is a oil manifold mounted on the frame rail, right by the side of the engine block... this is where the senders for the electrical gages are located... you can tap in there to put a mechanical gage.... |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:18 pm: | |
LUKE 888-262-2434
LOOK HERE....ON THE LOG IN...LOOK FOR BUSES FOR SALE |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:22 pm: | |
oil in the air box could mean something as simple as extended periods of idleing...don't get in a big hurry to spend your money,switch to delo 40 wt.....drive that baby around .... |
Jim Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:54 pm: | |
Dave G:
What make, model & year of bus is it?
A GM with a VS-2 automatic is going to feel a lot different than an MCI with an HT740. The VS-2 will feel like it is slipping a lot as you take off until the torque converter "locks up".
Little oil leaks are just maintenance items. You fix a bit at a time until you get them all. Start with the biggest first. You may find that 20% of your oil use is leakage.
As Two Dogs mentioned, slobbering from the air box vent tubes is usually from too much idling. Absolutely do not make any overhaul plans till you get to know this beast for a couple of months. Change the oil to DD spec 40 wt. Thoroughly pressure clean the engine area, then take her up the Interstate about 1 hour & one hour back. Have somebody follow you & tell you if it's smoking or not. Pull into a parking area, leave it running & look at the engine. It should sound good & smooth & those air box drains should not be slobbering in the first 3-5 minutes. Maybe they won't start for a half hour. But if you leave it idling long enough, they will.
Since you cleaned it before you left, you will now be able to trace the oil leaks easily.
A two cycle Detroit should not be idled longer than what it takes to build up air pressure. If you can, put the fast idle on as soon as you can to help prevent slobbering.
Also, you should be sure the bus is dead level & wait about 1/2 hour after shutting down to read the dipstick. Even a little angle can throw the stick off & it takes a while for the oil to drain.
If you can get the oil usage down to 1 to 1.5 qt in 500 miles, that wouldn't be too bad. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:37 pm: | |
A gallon in 1000 miles is OK too. Make this your learner bus, not a restoration project. |
Macgyver (91flyer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 4:09 am: | |
Heh... a gallon in a 1000 miles.... 1 to 1.5 qt in 500 miles... What you guys been smokin'?!
;)
My poor beast went through almost 5 gallons of oil in my 1300 mile trip from Minnesota to Louisiana (I think 1300 miles, I'll have to look again)... But at any rate....
The engine runs great, there's only a little puff of white smoke when she's first started cold (warm starts have no smoke whatsoever...) My oil consumption is from leaks. I can tell you that for certain... the back of my bus is covered in oil...
But, I expected it to leak... and ya know what? If I have to throw a gallon in every 250 miles, I'm fine with it! It's a HELLUVALOT cheaper than throwing another engine in... This one runs fine. I'll fix my leaks down the road later on after I have things situated.
So...
Dave. Everyone here is correct... you need to just sit on it a while and figure out what the beast is REALLY doing. It honestly sounds to me like that so-called "mechanic" is just another "shade tree ripoff artist". Except, with you, he sees some big dollar signs. You aren't a big company with its own fleet mechanic. To him, you're just an easy mark because you can be conned.
Tell him he's full of shit and tell him you'll be sure to mention to any other busers you come across that he's a ripoff artist. After that, just walk away without another word.
That's what I'd do. But then, I love telling people where to stick it if I feel I'm getting the loaded end of the shit stick.
Cheers!
-Mac |
Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 4:44 pm: | |
Like the shop that tried to hit me for 10 hours labor to swap a rear air bag (MC9). The corrosion wasn't bad yet they claimed they had problems getting the bolts out...then they turn around and charge me for new bolts. I don't have a problem with new bolts, but not if they charge me the labor to get the old ones out undamaged. When I asked why the hell they they spent so much time working on bolts they were going to replace, I got the bewildered look. Ever heard of a torch?
At this point I knew nothing about buses, but I knew that a even a stubborn airbag was no more than a 4 hour job, so that's what I paid them...plus parts...and I left with my bus.
Since then I've had both pax side rear bags out. The one they replaced with the new bolts took all of about an hour. The other one had some rusty bolts. That one took about 2 hours and I got all of the bolts out undamaged.
I think a lot of these shops see a new, inexperienced bus owner as an easy mark. In retrospect, I'd be surprised if this shop had even 4 hours in the job. They just saw me as an easy mark...until I called thier bluff. There are not many shops around like US Coach where the owner will offer advice so you can do the work yourself.
Ross |