| Author | Message | ||
| Kenneth Hintermeister (Barbwire)
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Have Winne Superchief, Wanna Bus Thinking Eagle. Tell me why I shouldn't | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Well... Cost. Rust. Time. Effort. Neighbors. Family. The City. The County. Repairs. Dedication. There are other reasons... but you shouldn't be focusing on why you SHOULDN'T. You should be focusing on why it's the best move for you to make at this point... If you ask people why you shouldn't do something, you'll get a million different reasons.... Ask yourself why you should, and you'll get the reasons that matter. Cheers! -Mac | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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don't buy a silly 60 footer | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Fan report in 4 hours? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
I posted this the other day on another bus BBS, but it's worth repeating here: Here's the Cliff's Notes version of the Reader's Digest version of the answer to your question: ~ What exactly do you want to DO with your bus? This is critical, as it weighs heavily in the equation of "what's right for you". Think about this long and hard, 'cause it's easy to buy a bus, but a lot harder to sell a mistake. ~ Basically three types of large buses: dog-nosed skoolies, transits and highway models. ~ "Dog-Nosed Skoolies" are best if you want to go backwoods-boonie-bouncing, due to their leaf spring suspension and higher ground clearance. May get turned away at some campgrounds due to residual Partridge Family image. Noisy, with poor fuel mileage and low top speed. Built usually body-on-truck-chassis, and to haul kids, so headroom is usually 74" or less. Found with both manual and automatic transmissions. Can often be found at auction right out of service in excellent overall condition for "cheap" - but you get what you pay for. Make good hunting lodges. . . ~ Transit Bus: (RTS fits here) Designed to drive a block and stop, drive a block and stop, drive a block and stop 24/7/365/12 with proper maintenance. Built for standees, often 81" - 84" headroom, but large interior wheelwells and lack of factory basement storage create design challenges. New low-floor models have even less room underneath. Since powertrain is set up for city use, maximum speed is usually 55-60 mph, requiring additional expense (often equal to or greater than bus purchase price!) to change rear-axle gearing to highway specs. [Read that last sentence again, several times, until it sinks in - I'm not kidding here.] Most are well-worn out when auctioned off. 100% automatic trans in these. ~ Highway models (Think Greyhound): Average interior height 74" - 76", highway gearing, lots of basement storage. Sedan-door models preferred, most bi-fold models have been in commuter service and have substantially more wind noise (Eagles have these). Most expensive up front, but often less so overall than upgrades needed to make a cheap transit an equal performer. Older models usually manual gearbox (w/ better mileage), newer models automatics. If you want an automatic, much less expensive to keep shopping until you find a coach with one, rather than convert a stick shift. ~ All of the above are available in 30, 35, 40, 45 and 60 foot lengths. 60-footers are articulated - they bend in the middle. 96" or 102" wide, your choice. Mostly diesel, but some gas 30' skoolies. ~ As with buying a car, SW US-operated equipment has much less corrosion on-board than NE units. (Eagles are highly corrosion-prone.) Repairs are MAJOR $$$$$, both body and powertrain - these aren't autos, so don't even think auto prices for parts/repairs. ~ "Birdcage" framed coaches can handle slide-outs, monocoque models are not recommended (altho it's been done). ~ Try www.coachinfo.com for dimension specs. End of class for today. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 (35'L x 8'W x 10'H) Fresno CA | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Rrc62)
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What did it for me was watching my RV dealer buddy repair RV's. The work he was doing was not what I would classify as acceptable...and I told him so. His comment was that his work was A LOT better than the original factory work. The sad part is that he was right. They are built with sticks and staples....literally. It's amazing they stay together under normal use. Ross | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
HAR! "If you ask people why you shouldn't do something, you'll get a million different reasons.... " And here at the Bulletin Boner, even if you ask why you -should- do something, you'll still get two million reasons why you shouldn't. | ||
| R.C.Bishop
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Good Post RJ....always enjoy ( and learn) from your words. Thanx!  RCB | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Your mention of an Eagle leads me to presume that you are familiar with at least 1 Eagle conversion. Hopefully you are familiar with more than that. Before you commit yourself to doing a conversion ask yourself if you have lots of the following: Time, effort, money. If u can pass your own litmus test on those 3 items, then I would suggest that u look at as many conversions as possible. A good source are the numerous bus conversion "rallies" that take place each year. January in Fl., Apr. in Az., and July in Oregon come to mind. Talk with the owners and builders of these machines and develop a sense of the time, effort, and money to build one (sort of like checking the accuracy of your litmus test). Personally, I can't over-stress the importance of having a clear idea of what your ab out to get into and developing a fairly good idea of what u want to end up with before you jump into it. That said, if u decide to do a conversion there is a very good chance that you will end up with a finished creation that is far superior to any high-production, mass produced, factory built rv. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Kenneth- I loved driving Eagles back in the 60s. They gave a ride that was superior to any other bus I had ever driven. When I decided to buy a bus to convert, the Eagle was my immediate choice. That changed, after finding one Eagle after another with so many rust problems, that it just didn't seem sensible to spend the balance of my life seeking the bus of my dreams. Repairing rust in the framework is a problem, but in each one I looked at, the electric panel next to the driver's seat had been rusted almost beyond (any easy) repair. The layout of the Eagle also makes it a bit more difficult to lay out your floor plan. The older models had the isle lower than the seat decks. And I found that sitting in any passenger seat didn't allow for a complete view out of the windshield. As much as I loved Eagles, I ended up buying an MC9. It's easier to convert. The floor is almost ready to use, the inside ceiling is square enough to use as-is, Peninsula Glass makes double-paned sliding windows with screens, ready to use with MCI buses... and more.. Should you dump the Winnie and do a bus? I did. It's a bigger job than I first imagined, even cutting as many corners as I am. But this BBS is worth it's weight in Canadian quarters (or gold, in USA standards), for the amount of experienced individuals that are willing to share their thoughts about any phase of your conversion. The commercially made RV is nice. There's nothing wrong with "stick & staple" construction. I had over 160k miles on our 2nd hand Winnie, and over 140k on our 2nd hand Georgie-Boy. An engine swap (long block/insurance work) on the Winnie cost the garage over 12k. The needed engine swap in the Georgie-Boy would have cost me near the same amount. The price to swap an engine in a bus, is far less. Now.... If you've been doing almost all your own mechanical work, except for the "big jobs", with your Winnie... Be prepared to find that almost every mechanical repair on a bus is a "big job". Changing a tire isn't something that I desire to tackle at my age, especially roadside... You can't simply "jack it up" to work under it... It weighs over 9 tons empty (Eagles weigh about 11t empty). You'll need to block it well after jacking, to insure it doesn't flatten your hair into the pavement if it falls. It makes it difficult for the road crew to peel you off the highway. You'll be moving from a medium duty truck chassis to a piece of heavy equipment. And as one Busnut here told me "way back when", "You'll be buying a big toy, be prepared to spend big bucks". He was right. But I still think it's worth every penny. Even if that's what my bank balance is now, because of it.... Cheers, man! And welcome! | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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Hehe... TwoDogs. You still can't get over the fact that someone here owns a 60 footer, eh? ;) I understand your envy of the length... ;) :D I'll bet you wouldn't envy the repair bills on it. Every damn thing on it is special order and special procedure to install! That's alright though... I'll get it back on the road soon enough! By the way... I'm moving to Atlanta, GA in the next few days!! WOOHOO!! Cheers! -Mac | ||
| terry h albon Rating: N/A |
if you buy an eagle try to buy a west coast bus the eagles are easy to raise the roof or put slides in, mcis rust too.there is not alot of eagle left that have not had the high carbon steel replaced from the 60s and 70s and parts are not hard to find.buy what you like and enjoy | ||
| Nick
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We have been fultiming for over six years, the first 18 months in a Pace Arrow motorhome, then we bought an MCI 8 and have been living in it and converting it ever since as we travel. We also publish an RV travel magazine to earn our living. From the very first, our motorhome gave us trouble and the manufacturer did not stand behind it. We had looked at buses, but never seriously considered them at first. Then one day I was talking to Dick Reed, who operates thge RV Driving School and has a beautiful Eagle bus conversion. Dick said "Think about this, singers and entertainers who make their living on the road all travel in buses, not motorhomes. They don't have time to spend in a shop someplace waiting for repairs, and they want a rig that is safe, reliable, and can carry a big payload. You make your living on the road too, don't you need the same things?" We started shoping for a bus that week and have never regretted it. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Buy the newest bus you can afford. Some thing that is still made now. Brian 4905 Oregon | ||
| DMDave Rating: N/A |
They dont have to be new-new, but thats good advice. Get what makes you smile when you see it or the one you want. You wont be happy with a sqaure boxy one if you love the curves of an older unit. Thats what makes coaches so attractive, they dont have to be new, but they need to be used. They dont do well sitting around. When we bought our coach it had been sitting for several years and took several years to work out the bugs (and mice). Once you get a handle on the systems its mostly preventive maintainence. Make sure you get one geared for what you want, and powered enough to tow if you need to. Our bus is over 50 years old and we wouldent trade it. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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I am not sure why RJ is always attacking the RTS as a conversion, I have one and it makes a GREAT conversion. Having to change differential gears (if necessary, many are already geared for the highway since they are used for commuting routes)is not that bad. At least you don't have to raise the roof on an RTS and it is available with OPENING windows. Unfortunately, RJ is singing to the choir on this board and I am getting tired of arguing about it, so if anyone want to know the truth about converting an RTS (not just "transit"), please visit the Yahoo RTS bus nuts sight: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RTS-bus-nuts/ --Geoff '82 RTS CA/AZ | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Geoff, Actually, having met personally and spoken both with you and particularly with RJ on numerous occasions, I don't think RJ has a case of "coldfeet" and is spreading "FUD" (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the RTS. I feel he isn't dissing RTSs so much as he's being a devil's advocate, setting out the tricks and traps that may befall the inexperienced or unwary. Onward and Upward | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Geoff: I think Marc is on target with his observation of RJ's assessment. Afterall, and with no dissing intended, the RTS does have it's drawbacks and limitations, just as any bus does. Anyone that classifies it as a transit is correct, end of story. It was intended and designed for transit service, not intercity service, at least that is my understanding of it's engineering history. Far more were built with 5.13:1 rear ends than with 4.12:1. In fact, I don't think Rockwell ever made a gear set taller than about 3.87 for the angle drive rear end, and damn few of them. Converting a rear end to hiway gears today is not a simple, straight-forward job. Have you tried to find a set of 4.12's for an angle drive lately? If and when you do, you will pay a premium for them; far more than the $400 I paid for the entire pumpkin 7 yrs. ago. Which subject relates directly to the next drawback; the limitation of transmission options, which relates to engine options, and so forth. Fortunately, you don't have to raise the roof on an RTS, because I think even you would have to admit that given the design and construction, it would be an undertaking of monumental proportions. It would be easier to raise the roof on my Grumman! Point is, someone pointing out the limitations and shortcomings does not necessarily constitute dissing nor does it necessarily mean that they are eliminating it from consideration. Proof of that is that I'm currently shopping the market for a 35' RTs for a friend and I to convert for him. He wants that "sportscar" look that FF talks of, but 25 yrs. newer. His 2nd choice would be a 35' Neoplan Jetliner, what I refer to as "the best of both Worlds, LOL!", but they are harder to find than 4.12 rear end gear sets! | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
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Hi Ken: Here's a page I made about why we decided to buy a bus conversion and dump our traditional class-A RV: http://www.brownland.org/bus/why.htm HTH, Brian Brown PD4106-1175 My Bus Site | ||
| R.C.Bishop
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Ditto about RJ s posted by Jim Maxwel, et al! He has lotsa experience in the bus industry. FWIW RCB | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Geoff, I think you might have liked it better if RJ had said "inexpensive transit" rather than "cheap transit". At least, that was the impression that I got when I read it. I suppose the statement "Most are well-worn out when auctioned off" didn't help much either. Do you think that he was wrong? I was told by a fellow in Perris, CA, that they are heavy, and it's hard to get very good fuel mileage out of them. I think that the 6V92 is a plus, but the gearing, weight and automatic all take a toll on their economy. How well does your RTS do? Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Hi, Tom My conversion weighs 32,000 lbs and gets 7-7.5 mpg with the 350HP 6V92TA. So you see that the bus doesn't weigh anymore than a three axle conversion usually weighs, and does well on fuel since it is shorter and aerodynamic in design (the RTS was tested in a wind tunnel as part of it's design process). Driving the RTS with it's Sheppard steering box and low-lean suspension makes it feel like you are driving a huge mini-van. The view out the large front wndows is excellent while traveling. The RTS makes an excellent highway coach and it is hard to tell if you are going 60 mph or 70 mph, mine tops out at 78 with the 4:10 rear end. Getting back to RJ's "digs", the RTS is used by large transit agencies and normally receives excellent fleet care and are often retired with 500-600,000 miles on the chassis. Many are used for commuter service and are run on the freeway between cities (such as my ex-Golden Gate Transit bus). There have been over 20,000 RTS's made, and there are many bargains out there in used buses. To end this, let me point out that making storage bays in an RTS is quite simple-- the space is there you just have to utilize it. I have two full, pass through bays on mine that are 5' wide and 20" tall, the other two bays house the holding tanks, propane bottle, and Webasto along with the fuel and air tanks. The diesel generator sits above the engine compartment where the old air handler was. So you see there is plenty of room for storage and conversion necessities in an RTS. Did I forget to mention RTS's are a good looking bus? --Geoff | ||
| Macgyver (91flyer)
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I'll weigh in on the RTS debate. I agree.... the bus is a GREAT looking bus. That's why it was initially my 1st choice and was, in fact, what I was looking for when I Stumbled upon my current beauty... 60 feet just beats the hell out of 35, 40 or 45 feet... and the price was right... But still, had I not found it... the RTS was my top choice.... I know it's not a good reason, but it was that choice solely on its looks. I liked it... I still do... Maybe one day I'll do one just for the hell of it, and to have something I can tool around in the city with. It's kinda hard to take the 60 footer anywhere because it's... well... huge! -Mac | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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A Bit of very sad news about RTS's.. Latest info/rumor has it; The mouse here in Florida shreds all retired RTS buses, No parts, No surplus, Just drives them to the shredder yard and POOF ! They go to the same yard that shredded a running PD4501 Scenicruiser conversion. That is so disgusting that I try to not think about what I would like to do to the people that operate that metal salvage yard. | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
On the brighter side of it..... We bought a folding lawn chair at "Dollar-World" yesterday. When I flipped it upside-down, a small area under the arm carried an old stamp (imprint) with some numbers I couldn't make out, and some letters that read: "RTS Transit". It is -very- comfortable! | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Must have been a plastic chair if made from RTS. Probably made from one of the side panels | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
Heh heh... Jimmie... U rokkin' D boat! Actually, after seeing Pete's RTS, I kinda wish I bought one. They're inexpensive, easy to convert and provide more room than a same-sized commercial RV. They can look great from the outside with a modest amount of work! Sure, the wheel-wells are a pain to have to work around, but I'd bet you can buy an RTS in better condition for less money, than any MCI or Prevo. They're a nice rig to do up. I needed more storage space, so the MCI was a better choice. But for the guy that just wants to get something better than a "stick & Staple", and not have to spend the rest of his life converting, the RTS may be the way to go! | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
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Hey Thanks jtng for the compliment on my RTS - here's an old post: Don't Underestimate the RTS - Mostly Stainless Steel Unibody construction - comes in 35' or 40 ' and 96' or 102" wide bodies. Mines powered by a 6V92TA / V731 w/4.10 gears I paid $4500 (600k total miles - less than 100k on rebuilt engine/tranny - Aloca's and great tires) for My 35' 102" wide '89 RTS has - 140 gallons diesel - 95 gallons waste - 92 gallons fresh - a 7kw Generator - washer/dryer - walk-thru bath with neoangle shower - huge closets (the bedroom closet (over the engine) is 6' wide 20' deep and 4' high). the hall His and her's closet is 5' wide 24" deep and floor to ceiling - by the way, my finished ceiling height (with twin 15K BTU Dometics a/c units - fully ducted) is 78" - (and that's with an average of (2 3/4") of insulation in the ceiling Plus an approx 8' x 5' x 20" storage bay (1 in the 35 footer - 2 in the 40 footer) Drove it 2000 miles home from California with the original 5.13 rear and got 7 MPG - I expect close to 9/10 with my 4.10 - IT drives like a "baby carriage" top speed = 78 MPH - cruises at 72 exterior  floorplan  | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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What your not saying is the rts dont have under bay storrage you have to make it . Some have moved the air tanks to get more room. They are a nice looking bus when done. But its a lot of work to put in all the tanks and under bay stuff. One thing to remember its a V drive and no one makes V drives or parts for any of the V drive GMC's any more and one day parts will be very high doller. There is people buying up all part they can get there hands on to cash in on us V drivers when they have the only parts. Brian 4905 | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Brian: While underfloor bays are nice, they are not essential. I ran my Grumman for 8 yrs. and nearly 80k miles all over the US (Incl. Alaska), Canada, and parts of Mexico with an open cargo area of 8'x6'x17", which I built as a single unit and mounted under the floor. Items too large to get into that area went in the back of my towed, a Ranger p/u. The new bus has nice bays, but only about 1/2 of that space remains after installing all the rv stuff and a dsl. genset. Maybe your just a bit spoiled from all that immense space of your 4905. A travelling friend of mine has a 4905 and usually his bays are so full of crap and junk you can't find space fora case of beer without moving things around. With less space, you just have to organize things a bit more. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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Brian-- I think you have "V-Drives" and "GM Bus" mixed up-- there is no problem getting parts for the V-drive or RTS bus. There are several companies still supplying new and used parts for transit agencies that are more than happy to sell to individual owners. In case you don't know, the RTS bus is still being manufactured in New Mexico. --Geoff | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Geoff - I'm sorry you misunderstood my comments. I was not "dissing" the RTS at all - I think it's a GREAT coach - I've noted that before to you, both on the boards and privately. And your coach is an exceptional example of what can be done with one - and you are justifiably proud of it and should be. What I was trying to point out to Kenneth (the original poster) was the difference between skoolies, transits and highway models, nothing more, nothing less. I know you'll agree with me that each type of coach has it's benefits as well as it's challenges. It all depends on what the "wannabe" really wants to do with his coach that should be a guiding factor in the chassis he chooses. BTW, check your email inbox. . . RJ | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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First point, the whole "standard consumer RV industry" with RARE exceptions stinks. It's infested by marketing types who skimp long on engineering but know how to glad-hand you at the dealer's lot. Winnabago and the like are mass-marketing utter junk. Even the ones that are going to metal-cage-frames instead of wood still aren't doing very rigid "commercial grade" structures or building for the long haul. There's basically two ways to "rebel": bus conversions and truck conversions. Buses are almost always better unless you want an internal garage of some sort, esp. something that can take motorcycles or similar up in the back, or need mongo towing. Buses will have more room inside than truck conversions and are *usually* more rigid in the frames, although the better truck conversions based on welded steel tube frames and riveted aluminum skin can be quite solid too (either in everyday use or worst case in a crash from a safety point of view). Truck conversions are built using the same principles as commercial tractor/trailer setups and often don't look as "clean" as a bus. I researched buses a LONG time looking for a way to do an internal garage at the rear. I would have needed to start with one of the unusual "puller motor configurations" like the Bluebird front-engine flatnose schoolbuses...but when a really good early-model truck conversion turned up I went that route instead. The biggest pile of used truck conversions is at www.racingjunk.com - look around under "towing". If you're not doing an internal garage, the only other advantage to the truck conversion will be MASSIVE amounts of towing capacity, way past any bus in most case. 20,000lb trailers aren't out of the question with some and the "toterhome" subcategory with the 5th-wheel plate on the back are still perfectly capable of towing semi-tractor-trailers(!). If your towing needs are more modest, buses are usually the better plan. I personally wouldn't do an Eagle - steel frame, can rust inside where it ain't seen or underneath where you might miss it (but a pro won't). I think the aluminum-frame classic GMCs (4104/4106/4107/4109) are the better deals, lighter but less rust possibilities, converted to autoshift if you need that, otherwise if you can cope with a non-syncro manual you'll get a bit better mileage. Second choice would be an MCI in mostly (but not entirely!) stainless. But there's lots of other good buses out there. In any case: Get. It. Checked. Professionally. When these babies are good, they're GREAT. When they've been abused, allowed to rust at key points (or HIDDEN points even when it all looks perfect!), not maintained, they can suck hard. Once you have a good one you can keep it that way easily enough. Final thought: Don't do slideouts. On anything. Too many potential problems...leaks, sags, lack of basic frame integrity, failure of the slide mechanics (the "in and out drive" parts), etc. People are buying them in droves off the "RV industry" because they don't understand the engineering behind them and can't be bothered to learn. If they did they'd be horrified. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"The new bus has nice bays, but only about 1/2 of that space remains after installing all the rv stuff and a dsl. genset." This was a personal choice a, "my way' . It is possable to get away with only 3 items down below. the propane tank , the genset and the basement air cond. The rest can be internal (as in many RV) with no hassles. The bays CAN be completly stock & empty as the 3 listed items can all be stuck in the old HVAC spaces on the coach. Works for me, FAST FRED |