| Author |
Message |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 12:05 am: | |
I've searched the archives looking for the proper lube oil for my 6-71. Specifically, what is the code on the can? Is CF-2 the right one? Does the 2 mean for two stroke diesels?
I have bus and engine manuals but the oil codes listed in them are so obsolete, I think the oil codes have been changed at least two times since the manuals were written.
I find lots of oil, mostly multi-grade, designated CF-4 so I assume these are for 4 stroke diesels.
Am I on the right track here? |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 3:24 am: | |
Straight 40wt. CF-2 is the current spec. from DD for all of their 2-stroke motors. Delo 100, Rotella T and a few others. Multigrades won't do... too thin and too high in ash content.
It's not an easy oil to find in some places. My NAPA warehouse quit stocking it, which is where I used to get it. Check with your local petroleum distributors and they can usually special order it if it's not in stock.
HTH,
BB |
Edwin G. Carroll
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 3:37 am: | |
Yes, -2 is for two strokers and -4 is for four strokers. This is all explained in the DD 7SE270 publication at
http://www.detroitdiesel.com/support/on-highway/manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/7se270.p df
It will give you the specs for the oil they recommend in our 53,71, and 92 series two strokers. Over on page 2.3 are two tables, 2-1 and 2-2. Those two tables tell us that we need to use SAE-40 CF-2 oil (and here's the fly in the ointment) with a sulfated ash content not to exceed 1%.
The container will list the SAE grade and the API classification (CF-2) but it does not tell what the ash content is. There are SAE-40 CF-2 oils out there with an ash content exceeding 1%. According to an old DD publication which you can see at tejascoach.com (DDC Oil)u$ing an oil with an a$h content exceeding 1% can cau$e valve failure.
The only way I know to find the ash content of a particular brand of oil is to see their current spec sheet. Don't trust even the distributor as sometimes they don't have the current one. There are nine brands of oil which I have found spec sheets on the internet which meet the SAE-40, CF-2, and 1% max ash content specs. They are as follows:
1. Chevron's Delo 100,
2. Texaco's URSA Extra Duty,
3. Citgo's Citgard Transit Low ash Engine Oil, 4. Fina' Fleet Engine OIl- monogrades,
5. Shell's Rotella T Single Grade Oils,
6. Exxon's XD-3 Monograde premium diesel engine oils,
7. Castrol's Assuron,
8. Royal Purple Motor oil SAE-40 CF-2 and
9. Conoco HD Fleet 40.
All of the above oils are available at their local distributors, check your Yellow Pages. Also the Rotella T is available at your NAPA dealer under their code number 56036. They may have to order it in but most items have an overnight delivery.
At one time I had the URL for the spec sheets for each of the above oils but the manufacturers keep changing their web sites and a lot of the old URLs are no longer valid. Perhaps if you did a google and type in each oil as shown above along with "spec sheet" you could check the specs yourself. That way you know for sure you're getting an oil that meets the DD specs.
Do not use a multi-grade oil in our 2 strokers, causes all kinds of problems. If you'll go to tejascoach.com and scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Technical Library there are two articles which you'll find very enlightening; DDC Oil and Tejas Oil. On the DDC oil article notice especially those photos of the multi-wt oil piston and liner, broken ring, varnished metal, etc. In the Tejas oil article notice what Charles Stultzman has to say about using the wrong oil and what it caused.
HTH, Ed |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:21 am: | |
The "new " 5 gal pail of oil from the DD folks ONLY is marked CF and NOT CF2.
Don't know weather this is a mistake in labeling ,
or there getting ready to not service 2 strokes.
The box of gallons is still marked CF2 , and would be my first choice.
FAST FRED |
Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 1:27 pm: | |
FF
My local DD shop (Stewart & Stevenson) told me in February that DD has "Officially deemed the V92 series obsolete". He then also showed me the new "red book" (Allison Application Guide) which conspicuously did not include the 740 transmission. He further elaborated that DD is going to stop producing new castings of all major parts for the V92 sereis by the end of the year (I wouldn't worry though, parts will still be available here and there at the warehouses for years).
Oh yeah, the S&S guy was "nice enough" to give me ALL of last years " 'Da Books" (740 Tranny Service Manual, Series 92 Service Manual --all three volumes--, and the Field Sevice Data Book). Along with the Gillig manual, I now have a full library.
Tim |
Edwin G. Carroll
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 2:05 pm: | |
About 2 years ago one of the upper Mucky Mucks in the DD heiarchy (CEO or one of his near underlings) made a post that DD anticipated supplying parts and service for our two strokers through 2050. From what you fellows are telling us it looks like 2050 might be here quicker than expected.
Ed |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:42 pm: | |
Thanks to all, this is far more info than I ever expected to get.
Edwin,
Special thanks to you for such complete data. You must have spent hours on the net to come up with all that. I especially appreciate the info about Ash content, sure don't want valve failure.
I did a google search and came up with hundreds of DD hits but very few on lube oil. The one good lead I got gave me email addresses for two people but could never get the emails to go through, they had very strange email addresses? It was some kind of oil/grease research outfit.
Are these all about the same price or is Rotella the highest as usual?
@D,
What brand is "oil from the DD folks"? Ive seen this mentioned before but nobody said what it was?
It is interesting to me that light aircraft use AD (Ashless Dispersant) oil. Ash (Metal) as used in auto oils is death to air cooled aircraft engines. I'm not sure but I think it builds up on valve stems and sticks the valves. I'm away from home again and don't have access to all my references.
Thanks again to all. Now is only I could get to VA and get my 4104 home. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 8:25 pm: | |
Sorry, that was supposed to be 2D, not @D!! |
Edwin G. Carroll
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 10:05 pm: | |
2D Gusc,
Thanks for the kind words but actually there have been many people involved the past 3-4 years in compiling that bit of info.
Could you contact me off-board at "mred AT evansinet DOT com" ? Have a couple of items I'd lake to discuss with you. Thanks.
Ed |
steve souza (Stevebnut)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 9:01 am: | |
I know i may get flamed for this but i run 15w50 mobile one synthetic in my 6V71.
The motor now runs cooler with about 5 lbs more oil pressure and smokes less.
The oil seems to so far stay cleaner.
I ran the rotella straight 40 cf2 rated before.
I know what the DD book says about multi grade oils but i won't argue with success.
Just my experience!
Steve |
RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 10:00 am: | |
Steve -
If you're into $ynthetic$, next time you change oil, try the Royal Purple brand mentioned above by Ed Carroll. So far, it's the only $ynthetic I've run across that meets DDA's specs:
http://www.royalpurple.com/index.html
FWIW,
RJ |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 11:02 am: | |
Steve, how many miles per gallon do you get on this oil? I used to have to add a gallon about every 2,000 miles with the straight 40 that DD recommends. What is the cost per gallon?
Richard |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 5:12 pm: | |
Steve, no flames... just a few things to consider. When you go against a manuf. spec. like this, it'd be wise to have oil samples lab tested at regular intervals to insure that there isn't damage being done to your engine. It's wise for all of us to do this, anyway.
The oil your using is formulated for engines other than 2-strokes, and consequently has a sulfated ash content almost 50% over what DD says is the max. amount (yours is spec'd. @ 1.42% max vs. 1.0% max. per DD) .
High ash content can lead to premature wear on the rings and valves of your 2-stroke. An oil sample can tell you things about your engine, like if the rings or bearings are sloughing off, that otherwise is pure speculation.
Your observations could just be the results of running a higher viscosity oil... not necessarily a synthetic multigrade.
It's your engine and your $, but these are just some thoughts, based on what I've read.
Brian Brown
PD4106-1175 |
steve souza (Stevebnut)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 5:45 pm: | |
Richard
For some reason i never have to add oil between changes.
Oh, and there is no fuel contamination so i am not filling my base with diesel.
Never did use any oil--go figure.
No oil burning or leaks to speak of.
It does'nt sound like it is a detroit does it?
I buy it at walmart for around 19. a five quart jug.
The oil stays very clear unlike the rotella which turns dark and tar like in a few hundred miles.
I have around 2500 miles on it so far and no problems only improvements.
This motor is hooked to a vh-9 two speed and i run it to the floor (2200rpm) 58 mph on every trip.
Need another tranny someday!!
RJ-- I think i will try the royal purple next time but i will not go back to the rotella.
just my way--Steve |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 6:35 pm: | |
Steve,
Don't worry about flames, it is your bus and money so you can do as you please.
I'm very interested in your experience with Mobil 1. I hope you keep us posted as you build up the miles.
As I read your very interesting post I began thinking about the following;
Is 2500 miles a long enough test?
Why change to Royal Purple with such great results with M 1?
I always thought that oil was supposed to get dirty, a sign it is removing the dirt from the engine. If it isn't in the oil where is it (Sludge)?
How does one know if there is no fuel contamination?
I am in no way questioning you or your experience but am an old and very cautious person. After reading all the posts about the hazards of multi-weight or light weight oil I am looking forward to more reports from you. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 5:52 am: | |
"I always thought that oil was supposed to get dirty, a sign it is removing the dirt from the engine. If it isn't in the oil where is it (Sludge)? "
On our 8V stuff equipped with a full flow oil filter the oil looks awful 10 min after an oil & filter change.
However on our old 6-71 that only has a bypass filter the oil stays almost clean (just gets tan) to about 50 hours and is dirty but not DD BLACK at change time of 100.
"How does one know if there is no fuel contamination?"
It will be noted in the report from the lab sample sent for testing.
A "desperation" roadside inspection (if you suspect your engine is "Making " oil) is to swipe the dip stick on a paper towel and look if Clear or dirty oil grows away the fastest from the swipe.
If it gets clean wet rapidly , it could be fuel in the oil.
AS noted this is only a desperation
(should I or should I not pull the valve cover & look for cracked -leaky jumper tubes?)
roadside check.
FAST FRED |
steve souza (Stevebnut)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 9:07 am: | |
FF--It has a bypass sock looking filter on it but with the rotella it turned black right away.
Not so with the synthetic.
I don't know why.
It purrs like a kitten (loud smelly one) and runs cool (under 200 while climbing long grades) even when i tow my 1990 4x4 ranger.
Not so with the rotella, It ran kinda hot (220 on more than one occasion) Of course i pulled over and let her cool down.
I am not saying to do this yourself, just my results.
If it were making oil, from what others experience it would be burning a gallon in 2000 or so miles.
Figuring if it burned that much, so I am thinking the oil would smell like diesel (one gallon diesel in 6 of oil)
I usually follow the book but when i went to buy the oil the synthetic was staring me in the face so i tried it.
I changed the injectors to n60 and tuned her and no problems under the covers such as signs of any leaky tubes.
I will go to the royal purple next due to the ash content on the mobile 1 being high.
long term may cause problems.
Steve |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:39 am: | |
What worries me about Mobil 1 and other synthetics is that they stay thin when cold. Great for start ups, but it also means that the oil will be running off the cylinders and bearings much faster while it sits. I use 50 wt (approved for my engine) so that the oil stays on the surfaces the maximum amount of time. I also start it once a week or so and run until I have oil pressure and then for about another minute and shut down. I don't want to try to get it warm at idle so I run it just long enough to redistribute the oil to the bearings and cylinder walls. The complaints about synthetic oils in the past were from engines that got infrequent use.
I probably should add a preoiler instead of starting it up. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 3:49 pm: | |
Steven,
Running an engine without working it and getting it hot leads to condensation, thus water, in the oil and a buildup of acids. At least this is the conventional wisdom in most engines.
From what I've read about aircraft engines I don't think that the fact that an oil is thin determines how long it will stick before running off the metal. I think the camshaft is the major problem since it seems to rust before anything else.
There is a lot of controversy about oil run off in light aircraft engines. Exxon developed a special oil which supposedly sticks longer than others but that is somewhat in question also. Of course it is very expensive as is everthing for airplanes!
The preoiler is probably the best way to go but don't know if there is any proof anywhere of its real value. Couldn't hurt anything.
The very best thing of all is to drive the bus about 10 miles to get it warm, the very best thing of all. The problem with this is that it isn't always possible, especially during winter. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:05 am: | |
Pre-oilers do not oil the clyinder walls/piston rings or the lifters/cam lobes.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA/AZ |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 8:43 pm: | |
I am running it only about two minutes. Where is the condensation going to come from? I know I cannot evaporate the existing condensation in the engine in that short a time, but I want to avoid having just sit and idle. In the future I will be driving it enough to solve the problem.
Thanks for the heads up on proilers, Geoff. I believe some aircraft have had preoilers installed and modifications to the engine oil system so the camshaft is sprayed by the preoiler, but oviously I am not going to go inside the engine and change anything. |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:05 pm: | |
Stephen,
The engine and oil are cold, the blowby is hot from combustion. The hot combustion air hitting the cold metal and oil condenses the water vapor. This water combines with the combustion contaminated oil and forms acids.
Condensation also happens during wide temperature swings combined with humid air which cause condensation. This is sometimes known as "cold soaking". You can see condensation form on the exterior of any dense cold metal object. This is also happening inside the crankcase. The same thing happens inside your fuel tank except that there are no acids formed in fuel tanks. I've seen this happen many times on my vehicles and airplane.
If you happen to live in a very dry climate you won't see this very often.
The water in the oil is removed by getting the oil hot enough to boil out the water. This is a major problem in air cooled light aircraft engines.
Don't ask me for the chemistry behind this, I've picked up this info from years of reading about it. |