| Author |
Message |
steve k.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:10 pm: | |
1978 Prevost LeMirage ...I am wanting to change my drive axle wheels from 12x22.5 to 11x24.5. I have non-hub piloted wheels, the two nut type. Can I put steel wheels on the inside dual and aluminum wheels on the outside without changing studs and wheel nuts? Any input or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Steve |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:40 pm: | |
Go to ALCOA web site. With a little searching, they will tell you how much stud stick out is needed. They also make an inner nut with an extended lip to reach back into inner wheel stud hole to get a hold of more thread. They show all of this in their service literature. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 7:49 am: | |
As I understand your question, you are going to replace the outer dual with an aluminum wheel. That has nothing to do with the wheel stud. The inner nuts with likely be too short. |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 9:21 am: | |
To replace only the outer wheel with an aluminum wheel, you only need to get longer inner nuts. These are the "nuts' that hold the inner dual on and have a square head. We did ours last year, very simple to do. Hope this helps, Jack |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 6:26 pm: | |
Thats right, the extended lip inner nut would be only needed if you decided to install inner aluminum wheels. You just need to get the longer square ended inner nuts as Jack said. Can get them at any truck parts place.Make sure not to mix up the left and right hand threads. Studs and nuts are marked R or L or left and right. |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 8:51 pm: | |
I wouldn't pair a steel wheel with an aluminum wheel.
See "Tip 30"
"Mixing aluminum wheels and steel dual wheels will result in
galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals. This
corrosion can cause wheels to loosen and possibly result in stud
failure and wheel run-off. "
There are also different torque specifications for steel vs aluminum,
and heat ranges that are not compatible. |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 8:24 am: | |
snipped: "Mixing aluminum wheels and steel dual wheels will result in
galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals. "
What is the material of the brake drums? Yup, steel. If you use the bus on salted roads, all that is needed here is a plastic ring that will separate the steel from the aluminum. They are used in snow and salt country on all aluminum wheels where they meet the drum. Available at your local truck parts store or truck accessory store. If you run in the warm South, they are unnecessary. My bus has had Alcoa's since 1989 and there isn't a trace of corrosion. I do not have any plastic because the bus isn't run in the winter... I'm fortunate to be South of I-10 when it's snowing up North.
As to torque, both aluminum and steel stud piloted wheels have the same torque requirements-- 400-500 lbft.
There is nothing wrong or incompatible with running steel and aluminum wheels on the same axle. It is done all the time. Most Prevosts are done this way from the factory. MCI gives the same torque specs in their March 2000 bulletin on wheel maintenance for a combination steel inner/aluminum outer. Not a word about incompatibility. And, no mention about galvanic corrosion problems either.
So, Steve, do it and be sure to keep 'em polished. Gotta have the Prevosts looking good.
Jim |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:12 am: | |
There is more written about the pitfalls of mixing aluminum
and steel rims in a dual application, than I can post here.
Most tire and rim manufacturers do not recommend mixing
the two products. Some manufacturers state the difference
between the lug nut for the aluminum rim vs the steel rim.
Some require special nuts:
"For best service, always run two aluminum wheels as a dual
combination. If a steel inner wheel is used with an aluminum
outer wheel, a special inner cap nut (E-5735) must be used. A
Wheel-Guard® separator plate is recommended for use between the
two discs. " (http://accuridecorp.com)
It baffles me, that some here seem to blindly swear by "codes"
and then decide to ignore manufacturer's recommendations
regarding safety. Citing what some conversion outfit uses,
does not mean it's correct or proper do do so.. Or safe. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:50 am: | |
Jtng: There is more BS on the internet on every conceivable subject than any person could read in a lifetime.
Regardless of what a component manufacuturer says about his product, you are only concerned with the end use. You are unaware of the methods used by the bus manufacturer to resolve the concerns of the component manufacturer. You probably don't even know what brand of wheels are used by MCI and Prevost on their factory installs.
Apparently you got your information from the Accuride site but do you know if they use Accuride wheels?
If MCI recommends a specific method of mounting steel and aluminum wheels on the same hub you can be sure that it will work. With the thousands of buses they have built. they couldn't afford the waranty claims if it didn't work. |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 1:16 pm: | |
Stan-
Ok, I sat here and bit my finger long enough....
Find me the MCI Bulletin that suggests they recommend
using a mix of steel and aluminum wheels (rims) on their
rear dual assemblies. I cannot locate it. I usually can find
-anything- I am looking for, -anyplace-.
What MCI does say in a bulletin #2801 dated July 13, 2001,
is as follows:
"On axles with dual wheels, maintaining equal tire pressures
becomes a greater issue. A tire with a difference of 5 p.s.i.
will change the circumference of the wheel assembly by 3/16-5/16
of an inch. This is a small amount except when you realize that
on a wheel that rotates approximately 500 turns in a mile, this
amount becomes 156 inches, or 1 full wheel revolution. In simple
terms this means that one of the duals will skid one revolution
every mile."
Aluminum dissipates heat differently (more quickly) than steel;
the heat can expand the air in one, more than the other, in a
mixed match scenario.
You can argue with someone else, Stan. The manufacturers of
the rims do not recommend mixing the two on a dual wheel
assembly. You can, if you utilize their specific nuts and fasteners,
but to your own choice (and peril).
Why would anyone bother? Why use a wheel that can not be
taken off and exchanged with another? Does money saved
from not buying another two aluminum rims really warrant
taking risks?
In my opinion, it does not. If you're going to use aluminum
rims, use them for both of the dual wheels on each side. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 3:08 pm: | |
Jtng: See this post from Jim Ashworth. He says it is in the March 2000 bulletin, not July 2001.
<snip>
There is nothing wrong or incompatible with running steel and aluminum wheels on the same axle. It is done all the time. Most Prevosts are done this way from the factory. MCI gives the same torque specs in their March 2000 bulletin on wheel maintenance for a combination steel inner/aluminum outer. Not a word about incompatibility. And, no mention about galvanic corrosion problems either.
<snip>
While you are looking up all that data maybe you can find all the temperature curves on aluminum versus steel wheels. Be sure it is on the type of wheels used by MCI.
<snip>
Aluminum dissipates heat differently (more quickly) than steel; the heat can expand the air in one, more than the other, in a mixed match scenario. <snip>
As to skidding tires because they are a different size, measure your duals when they have fifty thousand miles on them. I think you will find the inner tire is smaller than the outer caused by the crown on the road. You can eliminate this by rotating all your tires every ten thousand miles. This means you have to buy a matched set of tires and replace them as a set.
You are probably the only bus owner so concerned with safety that you will do this. You would be better spending your time preaching to the bus owners who buy used tires than worrying about heat dissipation in wheels. |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:19 pm: | |
These go-arounds are getting tiring, Stan.
I run "take-offs" on all wheels. I'm not concerned with wearing
out my tires prematurely due to varied sizes on duals, nor am
I concerned with mis-matches. What I am or am not concerned
with on -my bus-, has absolutely nothing to do with offering
advice to someone else.
The wheel manufacturers do not recommend mixing aluminum
and steel wheels on the dual assemblies. They do sell nuts that
will accommodate the use. The gas station does not recommend
making Molotav cocktails, but they sell gas and they sell soda
in bottles. I gave you a reasonable explanation why mixing the
two may cause problems, and used that MCI document to
substantiate my comment.
You keep telling me that MCI has a bulletin that describes using
(mixing) steel and aluminum rims both on the same dual axle. I
cannot find that document in the MCI archives. If there was one
in the 1997 archive, it would have provided it. The closest
I found with any reference to this topic, was the 2001 bulletin.
I did not see anything in the 2000 archive, did you?
I am not going to argue the point further, Stan. Do whatever
your heart desires; tell 'em all to run plastic rims.... Whatever~~~
Have a great day. |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:32 pm: | |
JTNG: look a little harder. I found it and quoted it. No lies. No BS. You don't have every answer even though you answer every question. Time to cool your heels. It wouldn't bother me if you didn't post drivel for a couple of months (years?).
<snip:> "These go-arounds are getting a little tiring..." Except the next word is not Stan, who is knowledgeable.... Since it's not Stan, then who might that be??
So Long John....
Jim |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 9:21 pm: | |
Guess you're the expert, Jim. I don't profess to be; I only
read and relay the data supplied by the manufacturers.
I'm curious Jim, why MCI would take note (#2801) of such a
minor difference between dual wheel tire's air pressure, but
decided that it doesn't matter if one tire's rim dissipates heat
more (or faster) than the other due to a rim's metallic construction,
knowing that it would certainly raise the pressure in one tire
more than the other?
Just manufacturer's drivel, I suppose. Or does #2801 in 2001
supercede whatever you've read in 2000?
I wouldn't recommend running mixed rims on the duals.
(Just add that to the drivel) |
Jtng
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 9:29 pm: | |
Jim-
Your MCI document dated March 2000, is here. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:50 am: | |
Jtng: Now that you have found the MCI bulletin, you still don't believe it.
<snip>
DriveAxleWheels(Stud-PilotedSteelInner/Alum.Outer) 450-500 ft-lbs (610-678 N-m) <snip>
You just want to argue about everything without the background knowledge to back it up. Some of your arguemnts contradict your previous argument. Look at these two statements:
<snip>
A tire with a difference of 5 p.s.i. will change the circumference of the wheel assembly by 3/16-5/16 of an inch. This is a small amount except when you realize that on a wheel that rotates approximately 500 turns in a mile, this
amount becomes 156 inches, or 1 full wheel revolution. In simple terms this means that one of the duals will skid one revolution every mile."<snip>
Now look at this statement:
<snip>
I run "take-offs" on all wheels. I'm not concerned with wearing out my tires prematurely due to varied sizes on duals, nor am I concerned with mis-matches <snip>
You make a very good point about the service station selling gasoline but not recommending it for Molotov cocktails. Anyone who makes Molotov cocktails knows it is the best product available for that use. Unless you know all the reasons for a manufacturer not recommending a product for a particular use, you are just blowing smoke.
A good example of this is that for more than ten years Honda was a popular tow car but Honda would not recommend them. They eventually conceded that the reason was that they had not tested the car as a tow car. Because of legal liability, no manufacturer will recommend the the use of their product for anything unless they have tested it. A company making aluminum wheels tests them as a pair and recommends using them as a pair (they also sell more wheels that way).
You always demand proof from anyone who makes a post, so it is only fair that you provide proof to support your statements. I will go with the MCI bulletin regardless of what you recommend. You say you don't profess to be an expert and that is probably the understatement of the year. Your replies to every post are just plain tiring. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:14 am: | |
Stan-
You made a good point earlier, when you said:
"You probably don't even know what brand of wheels are
used by MCI and Prevost on their factory installs. "
Absolutely correct, Stan. Not knowing what brand/type wheels
MCI is giving their torque specifications for, does not warrant
using that information as a decree to claim that -any- wheel will be
compatible with another.
And Stan (and Jim)..... That is exactly why I argue this issue
of "mixing and matching" of steel and aluminum wheels on
dual axles. The manufacturers of rims that I have located, say
they do not recommend mixing rims on dual wheels assemblies.
The original poster of this thread did not state what brand wheels
he plans to use. I am no more wrong or right for saying he
shouldn't, than you or Jim is saying he should.
I personally, would recommend erring on the side of caution. |
Roderick W. Chandler (Rod)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:49 am: | |
JTNG You are the most negative person posting on this board. I seldom post but do read all the post. You find something negative to say aboutalmost every post made with a new or different idea. If you can't contribute something positive then unless the idea is one that will get someone instantly killed please refrain from adding your negativity. Corrosion on aluminum wheels will become evident long before wheel failure occurs. If some one neglects their wheels that long the mix is the smallest of their problems.
R. Chandler |
Jon W.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:51 pm: | |
My 1987 Prevost had dual aluminum wheels and where the two met they always had the white aluminum corrosion. No pitting, but clearly there was corrosion. The corrosion was equal to the corrosion seen on the single wheels that came in contact with the brake drum.
My 1997 has steel inner and aluminum outer wheels on the drive axle as standard from the factory. This was done because going from 12X22.5 to 315X22.5 according to Prevost was necessary for width purposes. (I'm just repeating what I was told.)
I don't know for sure, but I would surmise a painted steel wheel will have less galvanic corrosion effect on the aluminum wheels than the cast iron hubs or drums.
Again, this is my opinion but if the dual wheel tire pressures vary, the rolling diameter of the two tires will be equal because the one with the greater pressure will carry a greater load and will flex to the smaller diameter of the lower pressure tire. I doubt that any skidding will occur, but I'll wager the two tires will have different temperatures directly related to their respective loads.
Just thinking out loud. |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:32 pm: | |
Rod; et al-
You fellas' always seem to love shooting at the messenger.
When you see something I post in "italic and quotes", it is something
that I am relaying verbatim. It may, or may not, also be my
own personal opinion, but it -is- a manufacturer's, or repair
facility's broadcast opinion. If you don't like the message,
argue with the company that provided the information, not me.
As I said in a previous post, Stan's comment was well taken
and valid. We don't know what wheels MCI used to compile
the torque specifications for a mixed dual pair. We do know
that some wheel manufacturers do not recommend mixing
the pair. We also know that many wheel manufacturers make
different lug nuts, etc, specifically for their aluminum wheels,
and they are not the same as the ones used for steel wheels.
And we do know that MCI claims that as little as 5 lbs difference
in air pressure between the tires of a dual set, will be damaging
to the dual set. And we do know that some aluminum wheels
may not dissipate heat in the same manner as a steel wheel.
Knowing all that........ Why would anyone want to suggest
using a mixed pair of wheels (aluminum and steel), and
claim it's perfectly all right to do so.... not knowing if the
manufacturer of either the vehicle or the wheels in question,
holds a different opinion?
You may not like my comments, so please simply ignore them.
My comments were directed to the original poster - Steve,
who asked quite plainly:
"Any input or suggestions would be appreciated. "
Steve can ignore my relay of manufacturer's opinions if he
chooses, that's his prerogative. But the information is now here
for him to digest, along with the links to that information.
A pal told me I should have never started posting here under
the moniker of "the new guy", since it may give the impression
I've just fallen off the turnip truck. I guess he was right and
I was wrong....wrong to give -all- my fellow bus crazed fools
more credit and insight than I should have.
I've always felt that the more information you have, the more
knowledge you gain..... Unfortunately, some here seem to feel
that any differing opinion constitutes some sort of violation of
BNO pecking order..
Ignore my posts if you don't like 'em. |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 5:48 pm: | |
Hello information seekers.
If you have a look at the 18 wheeler crowd, you will find many tractors out there running steel inners and aluminum outers.
Covering many more miles per year than the bus crowd, and exposed to many times the enforcement scrutiny.
If there was a problem, I think we'd have heard about it.
An opportunity to save some valuable busnut CA$H?
Maybe no need to replace the studs for hub pilot style with only one fatter rim?
happy coaching!
buswarrior |