| Author |
Message |
Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 5:24 pm: | |
There are two kinds of lug nuts on my MCI 102 A3. Regular stud nut and stud nut with hub. Front wheels have 5 of each. One every other stud. Rear drive and tags have regular stud nut only. Is this coinsidence or is there a reason for it? Could it possibly be for balancing? It seems to me that I can use all the same types in the front wheels, or am I just paranoid? Thanks for any input.
Luis. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | |
The wheels that came on it originally were probably Budd type, unless it was a transit, which means it could have hub piloted.
From what u have stated, I would conclude that someone has mixed some hub piloted nuts with Budd nuts. Hub pilot wheels are flat around the stud, Budd wheels have a countersink around the studs. The Hub piloted nuts have a rotating flange around them that goes against the wheel; Budd wheels have a coned end that goes into the countersink of the wheel. You need to match all stud nuts to the type of wheel u have. |
Bill moldenhauer (Hotrodbill)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 9:53 pm: | |
My MC-9 came the same way |
Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:18 pm: | |
I'll take some lug nuts off to see if the wheel hole has a countersink. That will tell me what the proper nut should be. I knew there would be someone out there with the answer. There always is. Thanks James M.
Luis |
Leslie Robinson (Lesrmc9)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 11:33 pm: | |
this 5 and 5 setup is a safty feature, not sure if it was mandated or not, as the counter sunk BUD nuts put and outward pressure on the wheel causing it to crack,(these 5 are required to center the wheel that is not hub piloted) the flat nut (with no bevel) puts a constant pressure on the wheel that will not cause this type of crack; if this does't make sense let me know and i'll try the explanation again
Les R MC-9 |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 12:57 am: | |
Why is it all 10 will crack and 5 will not. You're concentrating the load intended for 10 on 5, so the stress will approach two times as much (except for the additional friction imposed by the flat nuts).
gusc ignore the following . . .
However, the friction contribution of the flat nuts can be significant.
In the original steam engines with riveted boilers, the calculations were based on the friction caused by the pressure of the rivets to hold the tank together. They didn't rely on the shear strength of the rivets. |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 1:06 am: | |
Luis,
My 102A3 is exactly the same and I have seen many others the same. Don't know why, but obviously MCI had a good reason. I would not recommend changing the mix without further substantial information.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 1:54 am: | |
Luis, you know that the wheel nuts should be tightened, at least enough to center the wheel, before any load is placed on the assembly.
At that point, there is no real loading on the Budd nuts aside of their tightness. Then, when all the nuts are tightened up, all ten clamp the wheel to the hub. The Budd nuts carry no more sheer load than the hub-piloted nuts do, so they won't be overloaded.
On the other hand, the washer or flange on the hub-piloted nuts distributes the clamping force on the wheel and would be unlikely to crack it bad enough for the wheel to come off before being discovered.
The Budd nut holes in the wheel require a very thin area right near the stud, so I would think that thin area could be a stress riser, increasing the risk of cracking.
I imagine that Greyhound had plenty of experience with such things, so if anyone would know, they would.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 12:10 am: | |
I took off several of the lug nuts and guess what I found? Every hole in my rim has a countersink. And every lug nut (both with or without the flange) has a coned surface so as to make a snug fit into the countersink. Why they use 5 of each and only on the front wheels is still a mystery to me. There's more to this bus thing than just converting it, huh? And I too have looked at other MCI's and they all had the same 5 and 5 pattern.
Luis |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 1:58 am: | |
Ah, a new breed of cat, eh? You learn something new every day.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 2:09 pm: | |
Man oh man will I ever stop learning new stuff from bus people. This is the latest. Greyhound was having trouble with wheel lugs loosening. This was one of their fixes. As it turned out, it didn't completely solve the problem, but it did help. Now they use a special non metallic washer between the brake drum and the wheel. This prevents metal against metal banging and that seems to have solved the problem even more.
Luis |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 5:29 pm: | |
Hello studs!
FYI, you will not find a manufacturer who will support the mixing of wheel fasteners, and those buses did not leave the factory that way, the fleet owners conjured up this "fix"
There are a number of issues and variables involved in keeping your wheels on.
The paint thickness on the rim, whether the Budd style rim chamfers are too worn, both the holes in the rim and the nuts(there are gauges to check this from Accuride and others) proper torque on assembly, torque rechecked after ~100 miles, abuse to the studs by earlier over torquing, wear on the hub pilot style wheel fasters, use of lubricants on the threads, to name a few.
Rims don't crack for no good reason, and wheels don't fall off for no good reason.
Fresh paint, believe it or not, has led to quite a number of wheel offs. The paint squeezes and the clamping force is compromised. Keep the paint really thin at the contact point, consider removing the paint, attaching the fasteners and touching up afterward.
On our old, and worn out buses, often owned by "frugal" individuals, the chance of there being out of spec wheel end components on it are high. In other words, the rims, studs and fasteners are tired and need to be confirmed they are within safety tolerances. Used rims need to be viewed with great suspicion: Why are they off what they were on before?
The enforcement community up here in Ontario, the strictest commercial inspection jurisdiction currently in North America, take a dim view of mixed wheel fasteners. Everyone up here who were doing it aren't anymore....
Whatever you have, make it a complete set, and be sure the pieces are not worn beyond their safe limits.
For a bus conversion, I'm always a supporter of replacing all the studs and fasteners, you don't know what was done to them before. Then, watch over them like a hawk to be sure they are not abused by some tire guy.
Pretty cheap in relative terms!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Luis (Sundancer)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 7:08 pm: | |
I agree, use all the same, so I shall.
Luis |
gusc
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 11:44 pm: | |
Marc,
Enjoyed your short post and will keep this in mind when I next rivet my boiler. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 1:56 am: | |
Gusc,
That will be good.
I'm looking forward to hearing your steam whistle - from a distance. |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 6:40 pm: | |
Maybe everyone knows this already,but rust streaks coming from under a lug nut can indicate a loose one ( on steel rims),after a trip and wheels were clean when you left.No rust streaks don't necessarily mean they are at proper torque. |