| Author | Message | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
I plan to haul my TR4 behind my 4104 inside a 13'-14' enclosed trailer. The car is pretty small, weighs about 2300lbs and with the top down is very low so it is a pretty lightweight tow. My first thought was to get a trailer with the front sloped to make the side view the shape of half a bullet. After thinking about the squared off rear of the bus and the turbulent air currents there I decided that maybe streamlining would be a waste of time and to just go ahead and use a normal box trailer. A box trailer might even improve the aerodynamics of the overall rig. If any of you have actual experience towing anything like these two different shapes please let me know how they worked. At the risk of being disrespectful I would appreciate it very much if the professors among us would not post any of those long winded theses filled with coefficients of drag and etc that I have seen. By the time I wade through one of those I forget the original question. What I would like to hear about is actual experiences. | ||
| mclough
Rating: N/A |
i have towed a dodge caravan behind my bus on a tow dolly. i have the 2 valve head with only 158 hp. it tows great except when i hit big mountians then i am severally under powered. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Gusc- Hey.... HAR!! Ditto! A nice, simple, easy to understand answer is always welcomed. Well said, ma'man! Adding a spoiler to the bus roof rear may stop that damned turbulence. Our Caravan has the shape of that "bullet shaped" trailer. It towed fine behind a conventional motorhome that had a 454 gas engine. I don't think you'll have any problems with the 4104. Oh.... Our caravan had a full load of home belongings in it, so it was quite heavy! I hope that was close to what you needed to hear? | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
gusc, Gosh, I never thought BB's generated such obsessive behavior that you had to read each and every post or they wouldn't let you back on for 24 hrs? LOL (NOT!!) You're not being disrespectful. You just appear determined to remain ignorant on this subject - Which is a perfectly acceptable choice. After years of schooling I gave up on further formal education - for the most part. Sorry for the digression . . . As long as the trailer is not much larger than the bus (doubtful) and the tongue isn't too long, I doubt you or I would be able to notice the difference between the two fronts without instrumenting the hitch. Your experience will be close to mclough's. FWIW | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
gusc, the trailers that gray hound use were just a sq. corneredand they used them to haul their way freightbehind the buses. the buses were the ones that had at least 5 years service before they were used as fraigth haulers. and the fellow that i got my 4104 from had an enclosed trailer that he used to haul a ford pinto car, honda motor cycleand his tools in with no problem. he even towed a 25 ft. motor home over 400 miles out of mexico to Douglas AZ behind him one time. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Gusc, I hauled a 24 ft box trailer behind my 4104 for a few years. I had a couple of sand rails and a couple of four wheelers for playing in the sand. Mostly travelling From Pasadena to the sand dunes at Glamis, CA. Probably weighed similiar to your rig or maybe quite a bit more. I really had trouble getting over 60-65 mph, with or without the trailer. My belief is that the shape of the trailer would have little effect on the overall wind drag. Especially since you are going to be limited in speed, unless you replace the 671 with something bigger. Richard | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
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Hi Gusc, I'm one of a handful of dealers in the U.S. for RV Airtabs & they DO WORK !!! Please e-mail me offline at: www.normedlebeck@yahoo.com Norm Edlebeck | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
John MC9 Spoilers, by definition induce turbulence by separting smooth airflow from the vehicle body and wings, they don't stop it. On aircraft they're used two ways, 1) to increase air pressure on areas where the laminar flow separated, for example, to increase pressure on control surfaces, 2) to purposefully separate airflow to induce a preferred stall pattern on the wing or tail surfaces. Wings stall more predictably and safer if the stall propogates from the wing root next to the fuselage. This leaves the wing tips flying and gives the pilot more control via the ailerons. The only way to get rid of turbulence is to shape the bus so it follows what engineers term is a "pressure distribution curve" the perfect example is a tear drop in free air. PDC's for vehicles are much more complicated. A spoiler at the rear of the bus won't even reduce drag, but it might change the airflow so the oil out of them durn leaky DD 2 strokes, don't end up all over the Tow'd Onward and Upward | ||
| Juan Navarro (Jnavarro)
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Gusc, I tow a 18 ft trailer behind our 4104 with two jetskis and two quads, pus a bunch of camping stuff when we go to baja. Between the tools, extra 50 gal water, 5 five gal fuel cans, portable welder, air compressor, air jack and sand trailers for the jetskis I think we are maxed out on the Dico 6000LB tandem axle trailer. I can run 70 - 75 on the flats but I bog down on the hills to about 20 mph in second and first. I'm running a rebuilt 6-71 with the automatic V730. If you click on my name above, you'll see a photo of my rig from our last trip, we had just drove to the house from Puertecitos, Baja California. We are headed that way again in October/September. Juan PD 4104-138 'Hound | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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Streamling goes on the rear of a vehicle for best effect. Streamlining the front is for looks. | ||
| Norm Edlebeck (Bandleader)
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Gusc - The Airtabs I talk about above are "Vortex Generators" which produce a controlled swirl of air which tames the turbulance behind any vehicle. By creating many small controlled flows, the larger, uncontrolled one is prevented. I installed 3 per running foot up both sides and the top. (about 72 in all) I found that the oil from my MC7 8v71 was still comming up UNDER the back bumper and depositing oil on my white (F & M) fiberglass doors. I went one step farther than possibly anyone else and made a galvanized plate (about 6" wide) and bolted it under the bumper where I installed 18 more Airtabs. I then made a 800 mile trip to 2 different RV rallies & returned home. I didn't have ANY oil on the back of the bus. Yes, I did have a small amount of dust, but believe it was blown out the cut out louvers from the top of the engine. Well, it made a believer out of me and now I'm an Approved RV Dealer for the Company. I'll be having a booth at many large RV rallies starting with the SKP's Escapade in So. Ill Sept. 25th through the 29th. These NASA tested little things really work & they don't cost a fortune either. For more info e-mail me at: www.normedlebeck@yahoo.com or call 800-946-6733. Norm Edlebeck | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Thanks to all the people who have had actual experience, and especially for the short answers. It appears now that the square trailer is the way to go and I appreciate the input. ................ Juan, I don't mind slow going up the hills. I saw the country from my airplane for many years and now I want to see it low and slow. ................. To the obsessive professors and others with no experience I thank you too because I understand your need to express. .................. Norm, I'll try it awhile without before I consider vortex generators. I don't really mind oil on the back, I just don't want it on my new TR4 paint. | ||
| RJL Rating: N/A |
Gus - One other observation: U-Haul box trailers. See them frequently behind their box vans, being pulled by all kinds of folk, some with, some without much experience, and they seem to survive. If you're thinking about getting a box utility trailer, go take a look at U-Haul's (even tho they don't sell them). One thing I've noticed are their rounded corners, which you don't see on a lot of brands. May not be much, but it might "match" the lovely contours of your 4104 better. . .  FWIW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
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Hello Norm. Am I reading correctly, that you have found a way to stop a bus from wearing on its rear whatever drips underneath? This is not news to be treated lightly! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
RJ, Good idea. One thing I need is a side door so I can get out without climbing over the trunk once I drive into the trailer. I'm trying to get by with as small a trailer as possible. U-Haul has to sell those trailers sometime, I need to find out when and where. I think they have side doors too but not sure. The only downside to their trailers is the heavy construction, I don't need more than a lightweight one. Wonder why they round the corners, it would seem they would try to get them as cheaply as possible and that is bound to raise the cost? | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Gus, One of the U-Haul managers posted on one board a couple of days ago and confirmed my opinion that they never sell their trailers. Several years ago they sold som tow dollys, but the trailers are either remanufactured or destroyed. They have a serious problem with theft and since they never sell one, any unit sitting at some persons house for a period of time is considered stolen property. Richard | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Rounded corners seriously reduce drag and therefore impact fuel expense, but the overall effect on a U-haul would be improved by a larger radius. The radius on the Eagle windshield is a "minimum" and IIRC, Bob Belter, an Aeronautical Engineer, felt a 12" radius was the practical optimum. The flat plate equivalent shows that a 1' square flat plate has approx 1.7 times the drag of a round plate of the same area. While not directly comparable, it'll give you an idea of why not to have square corners. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
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IIRC, someone once told me that one of the reasons U-Haul makes their trailers the way they do, is to make it easier for them to spot "misplaced" trailers. Also one of the reasons they do not sell them. Jack | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Richard, Never thought about theft, makes sense. Good to know the facts. Marc, Thanks for another educational post about things I didn't know I needed to know. What is IIRC?? | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
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IIRC=If I Recall Correctly Jack | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Gusc- Go here and type in IIRC or any other. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Gusc, You don't "need" to know anything more than you want to. Funny thing is, life's experiences tend to prompt those that can keep their head out of the proverbial sand (or whatever) to absorb (if not learn) all that they can. You makes your choice and pays your price (the price of ignorance, that is!) No, it's not a jibe, just words of wisdom learned long ago from someone much smarter than I! Onward and Upward | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Jack, Thanks, I thought it was Roman Numeral two + RC!! | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Marc, I think I have a problem also. Although I lost my bus in a fire a couple of years ago and have no intention of getting another, I just can not give up the boards and the learning experience which I know I will never have a use for. Richard | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Richard- Is there any information you can provide about that fire, that might help others prevent a loss? It'd be greatly appreciated. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Richard, If you have a problem, I hope it's infectuous. You're a knowledgable, intelligent, interesting person. Somewhat humble too, since I learned some things about you since our last meeting in Arcadia that would have caused me to bombard you with questions! Another sign of your intelligence seeing you stayed away from the onslaught! 1M HP electric motors for "clean" power . . . Onward and Upward | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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Shucks Marc, you make me blush. I'm just an old country farmboy with a PHD in Post Hole Digging! John, I had electric toe kick heaters on each side of the queen size bed. Each thermostatically controlled and with a variable speed 12 volt fan. My Daughter and her family had just returned to WV after a trip to Iowa and the bus was connected to shore power and parked beside my home. The heaters were accidentally left on as I typically used the Webasto to maintain the bus at a minimum temperature to prevent water lines from freezing. Although it is not known for certain, I am in the belief that a build up of dust/lint on the intake screen was so great that it ignited from the heat of the electric heater. This opinion has been reinforced by opinions from various members of the board relating similiar experience. Due to the out of the way location, I had never checked for an accumulation of dust on the screen and would caution everyone to make this an annual inspection item. The conversion was about 15 years old, so it had plenty of time to accumulate a large concentration of dust. Richard | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
Two big reasons for U Haul to destroy trailers, etc.: 1. If I rent equipment, why would I sell the same units out into the world to reduce my revenue? 2. (And much more likely) In our litigious world, the money generated by used unit sales would not compare to the lawsuit settlement from someone who had/caused an accident with one of the ex-U Haul units. A lawyer would ask: If it were safe to use, why would you sell it? and: If it was to old/deteriorated for U Haul, why would you sell it to an "innocent buyer"? Catch 22. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Richard- Thanks. It sounds like a problem well worth taking note of. | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Marc, As usual, I didn't understand your first post of the fourth. The language of academia has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. Jim Bob, I can understand your first point but not the second since all the car rental companies sell their used cars on the open market? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Please note: U-Haul does not sell trailers Everything but? (I could swear two in Massachusetts sold used trailers... ) | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
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For Marc only, since I do not have his email address. Marc, in your Aug 1 post, you are asuming that spoiler means the same in automotive and aircraft terminology. An aircraft spoiler is an interceptor to break up smooth air flow and lessen lift. An automotive spoiler performs like a slat or a slot on an airplane such as a Helio Courier or a Rallye. The terms do not mean the same thing. The automotive type spoiler directs the air back into contact and prevents or at least lessens turbulence. You are seldom wrong. This just proves you are still human. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Re: "this just proves you are still human." A nightmare begins.. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Steve, I spent many a Saturday with John Thorp, a legendary aeronautical engineer, a contemporary and consultant to Walter Beech, Clyde Cessna and Mr. Piper, among others. He was a "featured" guest speaker at the annual ASME convention for over 20 years. If you're familiar with the Reader's Digest article series, personally, he's "My Most Unforgetable Character" He "invented" the stabilator or flying horizontal tail, My T-18 was his 18th complete aircraft design, among other things. His salary at Lockeed in 1947 was over $50K. His explanation of vortex generators was two or bi-fold depending on the need. Spoilers could be an attempt to separate laminar or, alternatively, if laminar had already separated, they were used to "re-attach" airflow to the fuselage or control surface. You are correct for one of the two conditions. I'm sorry that I didn't make clear both approaches to the use of vortex generators. John was a model of clarity and I've failed his memory in this regard. Onward and Upward. |