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Geobus (4108gmc)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
OK
I got great the idea about Generac--Deep six it in a lake(see past thread).
Now I am looking for comments about:
Onan Quite Diesel 7500
PowerTech Ultimate 8kW CAT Powered GenSet(found at Colorado Standy www.coloradostandby.com )
Wrico 8Kw unit from Wrico at www.gowheels.com/wrico
Again as I asked on the Generac question---
I am thinking of replacing my 5kw Koehler Conf. V generator with one of the above. (By the way the Koehler still runs good, looking to update since it is likely half way through its life and it is a little small for me. Does anyone want it?)
If there are any old threads please let me know.
Does anyone know-
What is the practical life of the above generators or engines are?
How do they compare to some gasoline versions?
Do they all start the same in the hot and cold?
Is there a good reason to buy something else?
Is there anything else I should know?
Should I get 240 sqr ft of solar panels and 5 or 6 big deep cycles and use a 1000w gen 24/7 to keep the charge up (could be expensive)?
Thanks and have a great day. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:03 pm: | |
What's the matter with Honda or Yamaha? |
Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:05 pm: | |
Take a look here:
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/
I purchased a Izuzu 8kw for our bus and got a very good deal. They have a big selection, including Kubota.
Free Shipping and Quick delivery too. I have heard others here say they have purchased through Central Maine Diesel.
Our Izuzu runs like a champ.
The generator end will wear out long before the diesel will.
Shop around....
Bob V. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:24 pm: | |
Like Bob V., I purchased the 7kw Izusu from the same source he sites. Best deal I found anywhere for a new unit... period.
Of the 3 u site above, I would go with Wrico or PowerTech. The Wrico uses a kubota engine. I would not even consider the Onan compared to the other 2. Wrico and PowerTech both enjoy good reputations, I'm not so sure about Onan.
As for the solar; it is not a suitable replacement for an adequate and reliable genset. They are 2 entirely different power sources. You will find that in everyday use, the genset will stand alone as a source, the solar will not. They do not rate solar panels by sq. footage, but rather by wattage capacity. I think it would be rather difficult to fit 240 sq.ft. of solar panel on the roof of the average bus conversion, since u barely have that much sq. footage on the entire bus roof, if even that. Just a personal opinion, but of the two sources I would concentrate my financial resources on the genset (I have solar also, 500w. and not worth what I have invested in it IMHO.) |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:36 pm: | |
I've been looking for a gen-set for a couple of years now, and have a little input on this subject.
Wrico gen-sets are highly rated by the members of both the boards that I watch. The last time I was in Oregon, I went to Dick Wrights shop and talked to him about gen-sets. Very impressive the man, the shop, and the generators.
Power Tech gen-sets always bring top dollar on eBay so they must be pretty good.
Onan generators run/wear good but if you need parts they are available only from an Onan/Cummins dealer, at their price.
I had a conversation with a man about Onan gen-sets once and he said that when they quit making a model, they quit making repair parts for them. He was left holding the bag on a back-up, 5 or 6 yr. old generator for a radio station. They told him "the only thing they could do was sell him a new generator." He bought a new generator but it wasn't an Onan.
I had a 6.5 Onan on a motorhome that gave me some problems that weren't Onans fault, dirt in the carb., but you couldn't take the carb. off the engine without removing the intake manifold first. I thought it was a poor design.
Central Maine Diesel has some nice gen-sets with a 5 yr warranty, which is as long a warranty as I've seen. They have free shipping right now also.
Ed. |
Geobus (4108gmc)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 9:41 pm: | |
Great comments.
I was kidding on the square about the solar but now I know what I suspected. Thanks for the link to central maine diesel.
As for the Honda or Yamaha, I have two EU1000's and one EU3000, great portable units but tough to use as RV units unless they can be set away from the coach. I know Honda makes an RV unit, but is it as good as the above? |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:22 pm: | |
use Kubota or Isuzu engine powered generator. It is a safe and reliable engine. Easy to get parts for any kubota since lawn tractors, bobcats and a lot of small equipment uses them all over the world. Isuzu is a little harder since like onan you have to deal with specific suppliers.
I have an Onan DKG circa 1993 and it is a kubota powered genset. But the controls are "onan labeled" and expensive if you can get them.
The CAT engines "may be perkins" since CAT bought perkins they started painting perkins castings yellow. That worries me....
Now you could roll your own.
Get a good Kubota and buy a Marathon pancake gen head and bellhousing adapter. Bolt them together and you are there. |
marc schlabach
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:38 pm: | |
I bought a 15kw genset with an Izuzu diesel. I have had it for 2 years and have had no problems at all . It uses very little fuel and runs very quiet.Central maine diesel was very good to deal with. I'm very happy with my product. Thanks, Marc |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 3:07 am: | |
Honda does make a well-respected RV unit in 4kW or 6kW. It's a liquid-cooled model, but it's gas. You'll have to ponder the "dual fuel" issues, and providing extra tankage for another fuel. Generally speaking, gas units don't take as well to long periods of storage, because the fuel is so volitile.
You might also consider LP units, since they are very good at prolonged storage and have fewer noxious fumes compared to gas or diesel. They'll cost more $ to run, but if your hours are relatively low, they're worth conidering IF you have LP on board anyway.
HTH,
BB |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 8:53 am: | |
snip. "The generator end will wear out long before the diesel will."
I seriously question the validity of this statement, based on my 40 plus years of experience manufacturing engine/motor generator sets ranging in size from 1,000 watts to 2,000,000 watts.
Currently manufactured alternators have no moving parts except for the bearing on the exciter end. The other end of the rotor is held in place by the flex plate fastened to the engine. The insulation is now class H which is good for temperatures well in excess of anything encountered in this application. The last time I checked they had an expected lifetime of 20+ years.
On the other hand, the diesel engine is comprised of many moviing parts and has an expected lifetime, before rebuild, rated at a few thousand hours at best.
I still have lots of machines that have been operating 30-40 years with the only maintenance required is a bearing change every 10 years or so.
Richard |
Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:22 am: | |
I purchased a 13KW unit from Wrico and I am very happy with it. I do not have many hours on it yet, but it works great and is fairly quiet. I plumbed it to run from the main diesel tank in the bus. Only one fuel to worry about. I have a 235 gal tank, so it will run for a while.
Dick Wright said he had one unit out there with more than 40,000 hours on it and still running. I will be happy with far less. |
Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 3:23 pm: | |
I stand by my statement, in a RV application, the slight usage which a genset gets will allow longer engine longevity. However, generator heads suffer by non-use and therefore shorten their life. Condensation buildup, lack of exercising, etc.
If your only getting a few thousand hours on a diesel, you better change your make. I have diesel units with over 5,000hours which are still running fine. But, have changed bearings and components in the generators.
Consider a diesel engine in a piece of construction equipment, with your theory, that engine would probably be worn out in about 1 year.
Bob V. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 4:20 pm: | |
In marine applications, where the gensets run 24/7, they are typically taken down for overhaul annually. This is typically in the 8-10,000 hour range.
20 or 30 thousand HOURS of operation for a diesel are not unheard of. 20 or 30 YEARS of operation for alternators are not unheard of.
In the current (last 10-15 years) design of the brushless synchronous alternator with class H epoxy insulation, they are virtually immune to moisture and condensation. I have direct experience with them actually dripping with condensate and when started up they performed as if nothing had happened. Even the old class F epoxy insulation of the 70’s and 80’s were almost bulletproof. Earlier generators with cloth and enamel insulation were definitely subject to failure due to moisture and condensate buildup.
I do not understand how non use or lack of exercising can possibly affect the life. Perhaps you could expand on this thought.
Other than bearings, the only other components subject to failure are the revolving diodes, and I do not recall ever having to replace one in the past 20 years. Bearings are tpically rated in the 100,000 hour life or better.
I wonder what other components in an alternator you might have replaced?
Richard |
Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 8:43 pm: | |
Exercising a generator (under load) heats the windings and expels moisture which can easily form (especially in humid or freezing temps). Also prevents corrosion in slip rings and lubricates bearings.
Exercising should be done with at least 50% load for 30 minutes on a weekly basis.
I am responsible for 12 generators ranging from 5kw to 200kw, gasoline, nat. gas, propane and diesel, have ends from Onan, LeRoy Somer, Atlas Copco, Kohler, Coleman, Generac and an oddball from Croatia, they are all exercised on a weekly basis.
(except for the Generac Junks which normally fail to start automatically)
I agree that the newer generators are more moisture resistant, however if you read the Warranty that comes your generators, most will read, "FAILURE TO EXERCISE THE GENERATOR UNDER LOAD WILL VOID THE WARRANTY" or similar statement.
Bob |
Geobus (4108gmc)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 8:58 pm: | |
From what I see, most of these units are not enclosed and have fans on the engine for cooling the radiator.
At Wrico, they suggested using a remote radiator.
And I haved heard that some people are finding space to install the gen set as a unit with the radiator. I would like to hear how and where people are placing the cooling system. Also, if I decided to do a remote install on the radiator, is there a way to plumb it up with a baseboard heater inside the coach, during cold weather use. It would be nice to have the extra heat, since I have spent a few nights on the road in 20 below weather. And could it be plumbed into the coach system to keep the engine warm or to preheat it before starting in the winter? Does the engine produce enough heat? Or is it just a bad idea thinking to far out of the box?
Have a great day. |
Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:05 pm: | |
Careful installing the radiator remotely. Be sure that the distance and height are within the perameters of the water pump being used. It also will require the use of an electric radiator fan on an engine heat sensor.
I placed the entire unit, radiator and all, with space to spare where the former air conditioning/heating unit was.
Bob |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 8:42 am: | |
Bob, you are 100% correct that all standby engine genset manufacturers require (or suggest) that they be exercised weekly. I think you will find however that that is mostly for the engine portion of the unit, not the alternator head. I do not think ANY of the gensets you have has brushes. Brushes were eliminated in most alternator products at least by 1980. (except automotive alternators)
In installations where condensation or moisture is a problem, a quality genset will have strip heaters mounted in the alternator connection box to reduce or eliminate this problem.
Based on the thousands of units I manufactured and shipped to every continent and every possible location throughout the world, from the US Embassy in Moscow to the underground Pentagon in Maryland, to NORAD control center in Colorado Springs and I believe every fortune 500 company over a 40 year period, I do not recall a single failure of an alternator due to moisture. I am not saying it can not happen, only that it would be very unlikely.
Geobus, Talk to Dick Wright at Wrico. He can give you complete details (I think) on how to plumb your genset into the coach's cooling system.
This is how DML was plumbed, and after I got the bugs worked out it worked great.
The Webasto was also plumbed into the same coolant system and to me, this was the best of all worlds.
Yes, the genset will produce enough heat to provide some heating in the coach operating in this condition. In fact, I had to add two 16 inch auxiliary fans on the coach radiator to dissipate this heat when I was boon docking with the genset running.
More details available if desired.
Richard |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 2:28 pm: | |
Just reviewed an Onan spec posted on another post and it indicated it had DC brushes and was internally regulated. That to me sounds like a "cheap charlie" alternator. I would want no part of it for myself.
Richard |
Geobus (4108gmc)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:30 pm: | |
Thanks for all of the great comments.
For now, I am thinking of getting a diesel generator unit with a remote radiator. Since I removed the fan and AC condenser from the front of my 4108, I think it would be a good place to put an oversized radiator, for just a gen set. I would like to oversize the radiator so it could provide a little extra cooling for the engine in the summer, now that I have an automatic. The automatic runs hotter. And as I said on the board, I want to put a base board heater inside the coach to add a little heat in the winter. While I can plumb in new dedicated lines, I was thinking of going into the copper lines that go to the front of the coach from the engine for heating. I want the seperate baseboard because I don't think I want to use the 24V blowers used in the coach system. Thus, the baseboard would be somewhat independent of the coach. Hopefully, it would also help keep the engine warm in the winter for an easier start of the coach engine.
Do you have any ideas on how to plumb this up? I am thinking there are likely some controls that might be needed for parsing out the hot water into the baseboard when there is a call for heat? Does anyone might have a diagram for something like this? I was thinking of keeping the run short between the generator and the baseboard so the water would be the hottest when it was needed in the winter and then putting in a bypass so the hot water would not go into the baseboard at all in the summer.
Looking forward to your comments.
Have a great day. |
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