| Author | Message | ||
| bruce king
Rating: |
With no further comment, but some satisfaction, I post the following: ===================== OWNER OF LEHIGH COUNTY CUSTOM COACH COMPANY WILL GO TO TRAIL [sic] August 5, 2005 Eight custom-ordered buses are no where to be found. That’s why the owner of a Lehigh County business is facing felony charges. Samuel Walker, owner of Walker Private Coach Inc. in Slatington, had a preliminary hearing today. Charges against him include theft by deception and running a fraudulent business. Eight alleged victims claim they paid Walker more than 400 thousand dollars for custom coaches but never received the vehicles. Some testified at the hearing today. TV13 also spoke with a satisfied customer who said he received his coach three months after paying Walker. Walker is free on 30 thousand dollars bail. he’s holding an open house at Walker Private Coach Inc. tomorrow. His case will go to trial in September. ----------------------- Original link: http://www.brctv13.com/local_news.shtml | ||
| bruce king
Rating: N/A |
First paragraph of the story here, link contains a picture of Mr. Walker. This has many more details than the other link. --------------------------- Samuel Walker, 55, of 8281 Route 873, Slatington, owner of Walker Private Coach, Inc., was before Slatington District Magistrate Edward Hartman, yesterday, for a preliminary hearing on charges that he bilked his customers out of almost $450,000. -------------------------- http://www.tnonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050806/TN_NEWS/108060044 | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"TV13 also spoke with a satisfied customer who said he received his coach three months after paying Walker. " "His case will go to trial in September" You wanna' try him here? Now? How 'bout a rope? | ||
| pete hyser (4501pete)
Rating: N/A |
im not far from there...my rig is in quakertown...i have this really cool towhitch,, anyone know the tow capacity of a 4501? | ||
| Jack Gregg (Jackinkc)
Rating: N/A |
from above link: Despite the charges against him, Walker is holding an open house for his business from 8 a.m. to 2 p.m.. today at Walker Private Coach, Inc., 8281 Route 873, Slatington. geezzzz . . . . . . | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
You know...I suspect what we're looking at here is more about incompetence than anything else. He probably knows what he's doing with powertrains and the like, and the sort of gigantic ego necessary to hold an "open house" under these conditions told him he could re-engineer buses safely <idiot>. The rest can be attributed to abysmally poor planning, total suckage at project management, piss-poor bookkeeping and the like. If this is the case and he's not "deliberately" a con artist, it would explain why he keeps trying when the world is trying desperately to tell him "dude, go get a job driving buses or somedamnthing to somebody else's schedule". Some people are NOT cut out to be businessmen. OR he's just a plain ol' con artist, I dunno. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
I guess this means I ain't getting my bus!!!! Jim: Some of us are aware of this guys dealings going back several years. He was in Fl. like the report stated, and exited 2 steps ahead of the law. There is no lack of skills involved here, he is an expert, con artist that is! The judge ruled "prima facia" evidence, across the board on all but 2 charges. Translation: The evidence speaks for itself. It is out of the ordinary for a judge to hold evidence as "prima facia" at a preliminary hearing. Essentially, it means that he is judged guilty unless he can prove otherwise, thus he will get the opportunity for a trial before they hang him. My money says he pleads out of all of it, maybe some short jail time. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
James: I don't doubt the guy is way bad news. That's blindingly obvious (or "prima facie" and yeah, I know what that means). The only thing is...what he's doing isn't typical for con artists. Most are more flexible, jumping from scam to scam or at least "front to front". A good example is an EBay scammer who sets up a Hotmail or whatever account, offers to sell something, takes the money and is gone. And the merchandise/market he deals with (and online auction venue) will jump around too, making him hard to pin down. Clever ones will use different WiFi hotspots or libraries or the like to avoid being traced. This guy on the other hand is a "one trick pony", just one scam across years...not only that, he operates out of relatively fixed bases (bus repair shops are BIG no matter how cheesy). This is...way stupid. Now granted, he did manage to flee Florida. But I still say he's not following normal scammer practice at all...suggesting he doesn't think of himself as a scammer? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Easy now..... "Prima facie is a Latin expression meaning "at first sight," used in Common law regions to denote a case that is strong enough to justify further discovery and possibly a full trial. " It does not imply guilt. It only implies the quality of evidence for a case to be heard by the court at all. (where's my rope? where's my rope?) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Well let's see ..... 9 customers (so far) ..... 1 satisfied (sure there not related?) ..... 8 customers with buses "no where to be found" ..... jeez he's battin .111 ...... need to send him to the majors ...... now whats did I do wit dat rope I had layin round her'n ..... hey JTNG ...... You gots de extra rope? thanks for the update bruce. Niles P.S. Please forward to mr. Walker - Johnny cochran's new # 1-800-DIR-TNAP | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
According to Jack Conrad he declared bankruptcy before fleeing Arcadia for colder climes. I suspect that there are a few people down there that would like to get their hands on him. Richard | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
"Five separate individuals who worked for Walker Coach Inc. for various lengths of time between 2001 and 2003, told police that not one coach had been completed during the time of their employ, according to the affidavit" I believe that Sam's employees have 'thrown him under the bus' so to speak - HaHa | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
I believe Jim has a good handle on what is going on. Walker is a bus man and likes buses and conversions and sees himself as able to do better and cheaper than the big converters. I talked to him years ago and that is how he saw himself before Arcadia. He may have mental problems. If the man needs help, let him get help, but this bilking of busnuts, intentional or unintentional has got to stop. I hope he has broken some federal law so they can get a federal consent agreement that he will not engage in bus conversion, sales etc again. Let him sell plans in the back of Popular Mechanix for his ideas, but not build or sell conversions. | ||
| Username Rating: N/A |
Trust your eyes, folks! I found the picture in the article to speak volumes, and in about 0.1 seconds: this is a man who has firmly implanted within him the belief that "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine, and in the latter type of situation, where you have something that's mine, well, that will be rectified amicably in short order". Now, that is not to say that the belief is necessarily operative at the conscious level; he may actually believe himself to be a moral person. However, that his barbarism is papered over, for whatever reason, e.g. preservation of self image, in no way alters that fact that he is indeed a barbarian, a devourer. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Ummmm...yeah, after everything that's happened he's definately "all that" but...you get that out of his PICTURE? Me, all I see is a fat dude walking down the street. <scratches> Look, all I'm saying is, I think the guy "believes his own BS". Hell so did Adolf Hitler; it's the types like that that're the MOST dangerous sorts. But they're quite rare in the world of scam artists...rare enough that I don't think "scam artist" is QUITE what this guy is. Dunno if we even have a term for the dude other than "dangerous scumbucket who needs a few years in the crossbar hotel to think over the possibilities of a career in janitorial services"... The reason it's necessary to make the distinction is that if you were probing the guy to see if he was a scammer, unless you talked to other victims you would NOT know there's trouble! Look, a "normal scammer" will set up an empty warehouse to look like a shop, borrow some buses as window dressing, skim a few customers and then vanish leaving an empty building. THAT is a classic con. This guy wouldn't look like that because he really DID have a shop facility in a fixed location and was there for years. He looked to be WAY more legit than normal scammers. And that's the lesson here, folks. There's this..."other kind of scammer" running around. Example: L. Ron Hubbard was made of *exactly* the same stuff as Walker. Big infrastructure, looks legit, guy believes his own BS, total freakin' loon. (And odds are there'll be a Rondroid around here gonna freak out right about now, ask me if I care...) | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A |
Folks, Before anyone else adds to this thread, I will caution you all about commenting further, for very good reasons. Please let me know if you would like me to delete this thread or any message in this thread which you have authored. You never know where an investigation has gone or will go and you never know who is going to be called to testify. Read your own posts carefully and ask yourself if you would ever like to reiterate your comments in court, for either the plaintiff or defendant, keeping in mind that both may be watching this or other threads. Please read between the lines folks. Seriously. Lemme know. Thanks. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
In my opinion, deleting any thread that involves negative rumor and innuendo concerning any court action in progress, would be in the best of your interests. It will indicate that you, as the web site operator, you do not subscribe to, or try to encourage the dialog, and instead make every attempt to contain and remove it. Unfortunately, you cannot erase the damage done, or the cached versions of whatever's been typed and broadcast. And yes, there are indeed many suits filed against operators of websites that contain comments that vilify an individual or group. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I@n- Why not just filter out the name of the owner of the conversion shop: "Mr. xxx xxxxxx and his business xxxxxx Coach are in court today". It'd cure the ill as it happens. Your software has that ability, doesn't it? | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Uhh .... John .... how was the OPEN HOUSE ? .... you buy anything ? ..... On another note, if after all these years of investigation, I can be of any help, I will certainly point the BAD GUY out to the authorities, Pro Bono - I for one do NOT want anything I have said deleted - to the contrary I have invited Mr. Walker to explain himself in private or on any PUBLIC FORUM including this one - I expect PUBLIC businesses to back up their claims and respond when their honesty and integrity is challenged - Some people prefer to keep it "our little secret" , I prefer to "live in the sunshine" AS Gordon Solie used to say - So long from the SUNSHINE STATE - Niles | ||
| Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A |
I didn't see Ian's message when I posted mine, I think I'll keep my comments to myself, thanks! Ian...........Pat | ||
| LABryan Rating: N/A |
Ian: You are a good man for raising your concerns, but I don’t think you need to delete anything from this thread. The statements made here, like almost all other statements on this board, are clearly statements of the writers’ opinions, and statements of opinion are not actionable as defamatory. Of course true statements are not actionable either. I highly doubt that Mr. Walton would have any interest in pursuing posters on this board for defamation anyway. To win any money he would have to prove that he was damaged by false statements posted here. A guy facing these criminal charges would not be able to prove that he lost business from a specific defamatory statement on this board. No lawyer would take a defamation case on a contingent fee unless there was a strong chance of large recovery, which does not exist here, and I suspect that Mr. Walton's budget for paying lawyers by the hour will be exhausted by his criminal lawyer. Moreover, nobody posting here is going to be involuntarily hauled in to testify in the criminal case unless they have had actual business dealings with Walton, and then only if they live within range of the court’s subpoena power, which is probably limited to the state where the case is pending. Posters on this board should note—in this and other situations you can buy a lot of lawsuit insurance by making clear that you are stating your opinion or commenting on published reports, but are not asserting your views as fact. A shout-out to John (the former new guy), for standing up for Walton’s presumed innocence. John is correct that the ruling at the preliminary hearing is not an adjudication of guilt. At the prelim, the prosecutor must put on enough admissible evidence which, if believed, would support conviction. At this stage the prosecutor usually puts on just enough to meet that standard, holding back the bulk of the evidence for use at trial. The defendant has a right to put on a defense at the preliminary hearing, but very, very, rarely does. The defendant will try to exclude the prosecution evidence at the prelim stage, but will hold back its actual defense evidence for trial, so as not to tip its hand. So a finding that a prima facie case has been made by the prosecutor at the preliminary hearing has no bearing on the actual guilt or innocence of the accused and almost no bearing on how the trial will play out. To me, the overriding sentiment expressed here is that no one on this board likes a cheater, and if this guy is the cheater and scammer he’s alleged to be, he should be punished. But I hope we all believe, like John, that he is entitled to his day in court. But hey, that’s just my OPINION! Bryan | ||
| LABryan Rating: N/A |
A p.s. to my last post for Jim: It is a fact that the Scientologists are a litigious lot, they DO have substantial resources to pay lawyers, and they probably don't care whether they win damages. Just something to consider. Bryan | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Ian: This thread is valuable to pointing out how to avoid similar "bus related cons" in the future. Any conversion shop or RV repairs/upgrade shop can get in a similar sort of bind; I'm having a shop in Sacramento do a major retrofit right now of my truck conversion and knowing about the Walker case helped me do a proper look into this guy before plunking down money. (Incidentally, knowing about Walker from this forum, I posted a warning to people actually looking at him over there - there's a LOT of cross-interest overlap between the truck conversion and bus conversion worlds.) LABryan: the Scientologists don't sue over opinions. Not in the US where I wrote that, and I rather doubt in Canada. It wouldn't work. I know a lot about their lawsuits because a company I'm a critic of tried to use similar legal tactics (Diebold Election Systems) and failed. See also: http://www.equalccw.com/liebold.html - the scanned cease'n'desist letter was literally straight out of the Scientology playbook. The Scientologists tend to abuse copyright law. It's a long story; short form is that the "higher teachings" from the "advanced books" contain stuff that is so obviously bonkers to anybody taking a fresh look, there've been attempts by critics (not me) to publish their content as a warning. The cult then sues on copyright grounds with (so far) a pretty good win/loss ratio. The "higher teachings" are basically really bad science fiction; they don't show you that stuff until they've already gotten WAY inside your head and things have gotten progressively weirder. If you're curious, see also "Operation Clambake": http://www.xenu.net/ I mention this so y'all will understand that Walker can't sue for what's posted here. AND it's worth noting that a "spiralling progression of BS" is the exact same tactic Nigerian scammers use: "hey, you get free money, you just have to pay a little bit, oh and a little bit more, oh and this, [several months later] and oh I need a couple million just to move the stuff into your bank...". If they started out asking for a million, anybody would laugh 'em off. In the same vein, if the Rondroids started by telling people that since in evolutionary terms they used to be clams at one point, a finger motion of opening and closing shells quickly can still traumatize you...well MOST people here will get a chuckle. Nothing so bizarre is found in the "beginner stuff" (esp. Dianetics). So far the ONLY time people have been sued for "personal opinions" involves stock fraud - make up a rumor about some company, post it on financial discussion boards where stock traders hang out, try and crash the stock so you can short-sell. (Or do the reverse, talk the stock UP, known as "pump and dump".) Either way the SEC takes a dim view. Not a factor here. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A |
We don't need wholesale censorship in this thread. Sam Walker has a reputation that preceeds these events and it is far past time that he be brought to answer, wherever that may be, public forum or in court. I have to admit to leaning Left, and trying to be consistent in this case I don't think they should lock him up until after the trial, and then throw the damn key away. And just so Jim of CA won't find himself alone in the docket, I'll 2nd his sentiments on L. Ron Hubbard, so here I am Tom Cruise or John Travollta. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
LABryan - I sincerely doubt any poster to this board (or any board) would be held responsible, taken to court, or questioned as part of a civil suit. The webmaster, on the other hand, can be held the responsible party. There's been suits filed against webmasters for this very thing. I believe I read one regarding a California politically based website (forum?) being taken to court for comments regarding an opposing political party and it's members. It was quite awhile back, and I've never read more about it, but it happens. And yes, I do believe the owner of that conversion shop can show a loss of revenue by the timing of published vilifying comments and the decline of potential customers after publication. As a webmaster, I would be concerned. Allowing it to continue is akin to condoning the publication of the comments. Rather than censor the posts or deleting the threads, filter the name, block it out, and the concern for fairness has been displayed. The Internet and issues of libel | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
Rating: N/A |
Once the guy is in court and a judge says it's a "prima facie case", it's a matter of public record that something went way wrong. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
UGH The evidence presented by the prosecutor to the court, was deemed "Prima facie". It's simply the court's way of saying that the plaintiff has supplied enough reasons for the case to be heard at all. I can't take you to court unless I have good reason to; the court isn't about to hear "Judge Judy" dialog over whose dog peed on whose bush making it's flowers smell bad. It's only going to hear a case that sounds valid. It does not mean the defendant is guilty, or that the plaintiff is right, it only means there's enough reason to listen to both sides of the damned case. Man... I got no cat in this litterbox.. I just believe every man should get a fair trial. Even if a guy's once robbed a bank, it doesn't mean he was part of the last bank robbery. And out of extreme curiosity, I searched all over to find the reason he "fled Florida", and to the best of my knowledge, he had absolutely no reason to "flee" anyplace, nor can anyone "flee" a legal action by moving to another state and opening shop....and advertising that he's done so. Eeeeghaaads... Where's the bus forum? | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: |
John MC9--You're playing words with mere technicalities and any court in the land will quickly advise you that they do not generall allow parties to engage in semantics. There is no potential liability on anyone's part here. We are discussing and rendering personal opinions of a Court record, which is public, and previously published public dissemination reports by news sources. My pre-conceived impressions of this case may disqualify me as a potential juror of the guilty party, but it won't result in my serving time or being subjected to civil suit, nor can it even give rise to such action. Furthermore, The Magistrate is the gentleman that termed the evidence Prima Facie, not any of us. He could have held it as over-whelming, sufficient, any number of descriptive terms. Instead, he chose Prima Facie, and thus accorded it a status of almost irrefutable. It is a well recognized method for a judge to convey a judicial impression to a defendant: You are in deep do-do and you're damn lucky I'm only conducting a preliminary hearing and not the trial! | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Alas ..... I guess people like the Grigsby's are liars ..... I woulda never thunk it of 'em ..... they seem like nice genuine people ..... but I still wonder where in the world is their bus ..... suppose it was a figment of their imagination ..... Oh - the above was just ramblin OPINION - Niles | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Jim- If it weren't raining, I wouldn't be here reading or commenting. I should have stopped with my comment to "LABryan", who seems to overshadow most of us on this topic. And Jim, I sure wish you had read that comment also. Stay out of the rain. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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James - I hope you don't mind me transferring this post - I thought it was right on point - Niles "Greg: I must be missing your point. What business is slandered? In one of the 3 articles I have read on this deal, mention was made that he was not incorporated and in fact did not have a valid business license. Therefore, it would be hard to slander his business if it did not legally exist, if it was his business that you infer was slandered." | ||
| bruce king
Rating: N/A |
Part of the reason that nothing showed up about the arcadia incident is that its been deleted from this and other forums. | ||
| LABryan Rating: N/A |
John MC9 -- Please e-mail me off the board. BryanSheldon -at- sbcglobal.net Thanks. Bryan | ||
| Craig Craddock (Gs4)
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I would not delete anything. Let this be a warning at this time that he is accused of improper business conduct per the news articles. Then post the trial results so no one else will be taken for a ride they did not want. This way we can keep the bus/converter community abreast of less then honorable people. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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If you go to prevost.stuff.com or google in parenthisis "bryansheldon" - it gets real creepy - man I didn't think that the internet was this crazy ... but ........ I think I know what I@n was talkin 'bout now - Big Bro be watchin - I guess I beez gettin one of them thar surpeenas real soon - (((slam))) ..... (((vroom)))(((vroom))) .... ON THE ROAD AGAIN .... | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Well lookit: there's only two major busnut forums, this one and Mak's. Mak doesn't have an archive. This forum pulled the old Florida Walker thread. This limited the "institutional memory" we had available and may have cost several extra victims. Pull this thread and the cycle continues. PLEASE DON'T pull this thread. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
This thread would be especially useful for Mr. Walker's attorney to distinguish and disqualify jurers. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
I think the American way is to give the guilty bastard a fair trial, then hang him, right? | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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There's a few people basically hinting that we're assuming him guilty a bit in advance of such matters as a trial. While that's true...is there any OTHER business in the bus/truck conversion world who's racked up as foul a reputation as this guy? Hmmm? | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
I won't speculate on this guy's character, guilt, innocence, etc. But, if you want a chuckle, find his website while you still can (Google "Walker Private Coach") and check out some of the shop photos: the ones showing undercarriages completely blasted with red primer and then black paint… airbags, hoses... everything! Wow. Some of the ad copy is humorous, too. Oh, and check out some of the welds and slideouts on those MCIs. And the 5' lengthening an MC9. Good grief! If true, it’s good that none of these buses made it on the open road… they’d just leave a trail of metal leading back to his shop. I guess PT Barnum was right! bb | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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BB: More astounding than his web site is the fact that he was recently featured (maybe 5-6 months ago) on a TV program of one of the cable channels, I may be mistaken, but I believe it was Travel Channel. I watched it. Was about "Palaces on Wheels" and the producers relied on 2 sources for their info and highlighting of the "palaces"; none other than S. Walker, who was dominantly featured, and another builder whom I will not name here. The show clearly conveyed the impression that Walker ran a Vantare or American Coach type operation, which couldn't have been further from the truth. | ||
| airless in Mississippi (Airless_in_mississippi)
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I wonder if those that were scammed as a result of seeing Walker on tv could sue the channel for not checking out their source and acting as a reference for him and his character? | ||
| LABryan Rating: N/A |
Holy crap, I’ve been “outed” by that ace detective, Niles. Niles, my posts on this thread were intended to provide some information on a topic I know something about. Obviously, you have a problem with that, but I wonder why. You aren’t one of those stooges who blindly believes everything you read on the internet because it somehow fits your world view, are you? (And I’m not talking about the information about Sam Walker, which seems pretty credible to me.) If you are one of those true believers, you might, but probably won’t, be interested in this article I saw in the business section of today’s LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tortmyths14aug14,0,2326040.story?coll=la-home-busine ss | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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LAB - My tongue in cheek post twas a mere attempt at humorously bringing attention to the assertions being made about the liabilities of posting on this thread (not I@n's prudent warning) and the chilling effects that non-transparency can have on free speech - there's no neeed in getting your "briefs" in a twist - I have no problem with your, or anyone's, post nor posting on this thread, this BB, or anywhere on the Net .... .... but if you feel you were "outed" I would suggest that you register on this board, identify yourself as an attorney when posting legal opinion, and state whether you have any interest in the action you are commenting on - Niles (Larry, Moe, and Curly's other brother) | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Excellent link, LAB. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Hey guys, bit of a bizarre twist to this saga coming right up! On a lark, I decided to google walker myself, make sure newbies were getting warned, with the search string: walker "bus conversions" First two hits were his. Third one went here: http://www.rv-coach.com/current_category.193/Forum.47772/forum_thread_full.html It's a thread where somebody was asking about Walker. My reply was actually first: ------------ Go ask this at http://www.busnut.com/cgi-bin/bbs/discus.cgi There are *numerous* bad reports, more than for any other conversion house. All I personally know is that Walker has recently been selling bus conversions on EBay *without* using his own business name. Which sure as hell ain't a good sign. ------------ Some others chimed in too. But then THIS came in from a poster name of "Hollow" on 5/25/05: ------------ This individual is evil. He was arrested in Florida during the nineties for raping several people. At one time I had a newspaper artical about his arrest, however as one of his victims I didn't want my parents to find it. I was young and lived at home during that horrible time in my life. In my opinion he is a pedophile. He likes to force himself on young men and women. If anyone can find him on any of the Sex Offender Registries please send me the link. I often think if I had come forward he may not of been in a position to hurt any other people. I was very afraid! I'm sorry. ------------ To quote Keannu Reaves: WHOA! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I@n! Time to yank this thread! | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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I@n - Please do me a favor - If I ever tell YOU what to do with YOUR board - please tell me to kindly go take a flying leep - cause chances are I will have lost my ever luvin mind - Niles | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Ok... so it was sarcasm... Keanu Reeves.... and the exotic usenet type reuptake post. Jim.... You just gotta' 'splain tings. Some of us are old and not as lucid as we once were. Sam Walker... you are redeemed. You may or may not be a good person to deal with, but you haven't raped or molested anyone....... yet. |
