| Author |
Message |
CoryDaneRTSII-N/E_Illinois (4.17.253.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 8:19 pm: | |
Ok you guys-I know you are far ahead of me in this so here is my plight.
I have a generator for my bus. Now I am installing it in an RTSII so that means the bays are open, free aired. The position for the genset has only the rack installed, forward and rear bulkhead and compartment door. there is no floor or interior wall.
first question-should I put a floor in? does this effect any sound control???
Same question on the inner wall(behind the genset).
this unit is supposed to be very quiet, I think it said 68db-I assume that is about the same as a person talking softly. what kind of sound absorbing materials do I need to hush it up more so. My goal would be to make it hard to hear at all at 10 foot but will settle for whatever is practical.
Any other hints you may have, now is the time, it is not installed in the bus yet so the territory is virgin (so to speak).
Will I need a fan to assist for cooling when parked??
I love getting stuff I have to learn about, its always a whole new experience for me. - cd |
Jim Stacy (12.87.110.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 10:09 pm: | |
Cory,
If you are going to enclose the unit (good idea) find out from the factory how large an area is required for incoming air, probably about 150 sq inches. A rooftop exhaust will remove much noise and make you popular with your neighbors. I put a flap on mine from the local tractor supply to keep out rain but the pipe still needs a drain as it condenses when cold. I used class B double wall pipe and ran the exhaust pipe up through that. You can put your face on the class B pipe when the gen set is running. Fan in unit should be fine when sitting. Ain't this a great hobby?
Jim Stacy |
FAST FRED (63.215.231.73)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 5:22 am: | |
A company called Soundown will sell very fine sound dampning material.
This will be all around the compartment the gen set is in and also in the air inlet and outlet.
The best is 2 inches thick , and has lead sheet inside thats 3/4 lb a square ft.
Its best if the air is forced to make 2 , 90 deg turns to get to and from the set.
If you do as Jim suggests with the exhaust that should be both quiet , and pointing away from folks.
Dont forget to install a "Buddy Plug " or two , so if camping and only need a bit of output , your buddies can plug into your rig.
Lots quieter with only 1 set running than 3 , just for a house fridge.
FAST FRED |
Scott Whitney (63.151.68.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 2:49 pm: | |
I used the Soundown stuff, too. Works well.
Scott |
john (192.9.25.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 11:54 pm: | |
Cory,
What brand/model is the gen set? How many Kwatts? What fuel? I'm also looking for a quiet one -- thinking about going as "all electric" as possible.
Thanks,
John |
CoryDaneRTSII-N/E_Illinois (4.17.253.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:06 pm: | |
DAMN-I posted a response to this damn board but it, like many others I have tried to post, never showed up.
ANYWAY
I am not all electric, sort of.
I bought an ONAN, Marquis 6.7KW
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I say I am not total electric because when I tried my hand at designing my electrical system, my INTENTION was to make her fairly independant from outside sources so my electrical sources include land feed as option(hopefully) Genset(if needed) Bus Gen(when on the road) and Solar Cell Panels.
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I actually thought the 6.7KW might be too big for my needs, but fellow busnutz told me not to go smaller than this.
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I have tried to go with flourescent lighting(they are the most economical and deliver the most light) with limited tungsen(incandescnet) and for when plugged in to land power, there are SOME Hallogen lighting on timers. Part of the flourescent lights switch power from house power to bus gen power when the bus is running.
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Stove is propane/w Microwave oven-generally limited use.
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One change to plan-original planning was to go with a propane water heater-I found an electric water heater that was low watts and supposed to be efficient-and busnutz told me that they are more efficient than realized-however-I still have the OPTION to install a propane water heater.
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One problem I had with my RV was the room heaters, it was propane but used dc power to run the fan, which would drain the battery down within an hour. I found a heater that uses propane and does not require power to operate and yet still have low oxygen shut off. There is an option for install of a wood stove.
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On happy plus was found after I installed the 4 20x20" boat hatches. they are of grey tinted safety glass and have been tinted furter with a highly reflective film-no heat comes in from these panels. but the big plus was found when I opened the hatches and a window or two, the hatches create a natural draft and cool the bus quickly-who'd have thought. I have a fan I can place in the hatch also for those nights you want to create a breeze.
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Well, I have carried on with my dream-coming-true but is also an example of how plans may change.
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Oh, well fuel is a choice you have to make-owners choice. Diesel is a big choice because you can tap off the main tank-I was going to install a separate tank that could fill from the station or through the main tank with a pump.-The problem is the Diesel is pretty big(tall, wide, deep) if you are looking at a diesel, check out the physical size of the generator then make sure your space will hold it allowing maintenance too.
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The gasoline, diesel and propane come in smaller sizes, all about the same as the other, Onan claims the Marquis to be the most quiet but becareful===the old model Marquis ran at 1800RPM which is supposed to be quieter then the new model Marquis which runs at 3600RPM.
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I dont have the exact figures but I think My Marquis is about 32"wide 23"deep and 16" high. IT is the older model, if you look at the new model, recheck these sizes. |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.150.111.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 6:32 pm: | |
Cory- This sentence you wrote bothers me.
"I found a heater that uses propane and does not require power to operate and yet still
have low oxygen shut off."
The low oxygen cutoff of unvented propane heaters is activated by a significant lack of oxygen that will not support combustion. At this level, it also won't support life!!!! Be careful with the use of these and make sure there is adequate ventilation for you to wake up in the morning. There is also a serious moisture problem with these since moisture is a by-product of combustion. These unvented units are OK for taking the chill off on a 35-40 degree day, but are not a good choice for heating the coach at 0 to 10 degrees.
Jim |
Jim Stacy (12.87.108.77)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:33 pm: | |
Jim,
Not entirely correct. 10% oxygen will not usually support open flame, but you can breathe just fine. A problem with low oxygen shutoff is they will not heat at any significant altitude. It does get cold in the Rockies. The Olympian catalytic heaters have a platinum coated pad that allows combustion without poisonous gases, and is approved for sleeping areas. One should certainly provide ventilation in a sleeping area as the heater uses oxygen. (So do you and I, mother and the dog.) The Olympian uses NO electricity and is 100% efficient on propane. It will (and has) heated very nicely at 10 degrees in a well insulated coach. These units are sold by RV Solar, Camping World, and other reputable firms.
One rear bedroom window and one forward roof vent each cracked open an inch or two provide the necessary ventilation for oxygen and moisture. No boondocker would be caught without one. FWIW.
Jim Stacy |
CoryDaneRTSII-N/E_Illinois (4.17.253.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:06 pm: | |
Hey Jim
These are heaters intended for a sail boat, sold by West Marine, the ones I want has a 1" stack, easy to hide, yes low power but with two of them stragegically placed adds up to a good sized unit.
moisture and fumes should go out the stack, heat should come into the coach.
thanks for the concern, you can double check my thoughts anytime and If I am wrong, I'll change my plans, I think, however this one is safe.-cd |
Scott Whitney (63.151.68.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:18 pm: | |
Not that I plan to get one, I use propane where ever possible, but I am curious about an 'efficient' electric water heater. The way I figure, it takes a lot of energy to heat water, no matter how you slice it. I can't think of anything that could really be done to make a heating element more efficient - after all, usually lack of efficiency in devices takes the form of unwanted heat. A heating element creates virtually nothing but heat (unless you count a dull red glow to account for light energy lost. . ) I am no physicist, but how much more efficient can an electric heater get? (assuming it is properly insulated) In my opinion, electricty is a highly refined energy source and should be reserved for things that need such refinement, like electronics. It's just my opinion, but I like to use energy that is easily converted to heat, like burning propane, to create heat and keep electricty to run electronics. . . Pound for pound, you can store a whole lot more bang for buck in propane than you can in a big ol' battery bank.
But of course, we all have our own busses to make our own choices! That is what is so cool about the hobby!
Cheers,
Scott |
Chuck Harris PD4104 (66.44.17.201)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 6:10 pm: | |
Actually under the right circumstances, a resistance water heater can be beaten quite soundly using a little physics.
The energy that you stuff into the heating element does heat the water with near 100% efficiency, but by using a heat pump, you can heat the water with a much greater efficiency. Perhaps approaching 150%.
Propane water heaters can be made much more efficient by reducing the stack temperature to be equal or less than the water temperature. The way this is done is by placing the combustion chamber inside of the water tank, and forcing the exhaust thru a heat exchange element that starts at the top of the tank (hottest point) and ends at the bottom of the tank (coldest point). Efficiencies in the 95% range are achievable. But, alas, that is 95% PROPANE combustion efficiency, you do have to use some electricity to provide forced air coombustion.
-Chuck |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.140.231.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 6:15 pm: | |
Cory- I didn't know it was a vented heater. Most that RVers use are not. Sounds like a better way to go. I have used the cat heaters during conversion process and found that they will suck the oxygen right out of the shell in way less than an hour when heating from cold in the winter if there is little ventilation. With adequate ventilation, two 20,000 BTU units would not warm the shell. All they did was produce moisture that condensed on the cold uninsulated roof which then dripped onto the still frozen floor. I couldn't work on 1/2" of ice so took them out and replaced them with a standard fully vented thru the wall 40,000 BTU propane RV furnace. Lived happily for the rest of the conversion process during those cold months.
Jim |
CoryDaneRTSII-NE_IL (198.29.191.148)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 10:14 am: | |
Heaters and water heaters and thoughts-OH MY!
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Comments are flying about the electric water heater. so let me try to explain my warped thoughts here.
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Now on Propane, I have used it in the RV, It worked quite well and as far as I was concerned, was efficient. I had no problem with it removing air from the shell and it gets its air supply from the outside. It is a fairly good unit.
I elected to be able to install one later but did not want to attach to the propane system at this time.
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Now on electric, first, I kind of did a random study on tankless units (physically small but require huge amounts of electric required). Up side of a tankless is it does not use power if you do not use hot water, it heats on demand and are physically very small, you mount them inside the coach.
HOWEVER
I wanted to use as little power as possible so found a small tank type unit, is designed to be mounted at point of use,has a small tank-probably 10 gal. To further save on power, it will be switched on when needed and off when not. Also, will wrap unit in insulation for temp holding power. I cant remember the load of the heater at this time but seem to remember it to be much much less than that of the demand tankless unit.
=
HEATERS
The propane heaters are small thus the reason it can get away with a 1" stack. I know they need a little amount of air for firing and may try to use outside air, ducted to the fire box. The air for firing should be drawn from the outside thus the coach air temperature SHOULD not be affected by the natural draft effect. Besides the two vented furnaces I have a propane (ventless) fireplace-its use is planned for quick warm-up or "looks" only, the two vented units will operate while sleeping. I have run the fireplace for test and have not yet had any bad moisture problems YET. Will have to continue testing and see. -cd |
Gerritt Duxbury (24.163.190.122)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 9:58 pm: | |
cd
I am also thinking of installing a ventless fireplace and a vented heater. I would be interested in knowing how well your system works.
I am also thinking of installing a tankless propane water (on demand). Has anyone used such a system? Please tell me the goods and the bads if you have.
Dux |
FAST FRED (63.215.233.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 5:09 am: | |
The tankless water heaters Bosch, Paloma work fine, they do use propane at a 75,000btu rate when working so need the vent thru roof.
Some folks have had problems with the unit choking up on hard water.
IF taking it apart every few years to treat with lime remover doesn't bother you ,{Shouldn't take long if installed with this in mind}
and a similar problem with winterizing is ok ,
They work fine.
The problem with water temps varying as the shower is used is easily solved by creating a FW return line back to the FW tank.
Then you adjust it , and if water
isn't needed while showering , no water is lost, just the tiny bit of propane that heated it.
FAST FRED |
madbrit (216.67.210.156)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 5:53 am: | |
The main problem with the tankless propane heaters from Paloma is that the manufacturer does NOT recommend them for RVs, boats, and anything that can be subject to vibration. This subject was dicussed in great depth on the GM BB and even though there are many Palomas installed in Conversions, it still doesn't make them safe. Paloma's website doesn't help by stating they are prohibited from this use and also suggesting this use on the same page, but if you access a duplicate page from a different way, this contradiction has been corrected.
The RV-500 at precisiontemp.com is about the only "Instant" water heater I have seen that is built for the RV market and it is very expensive. Many busnuts emailed Paloma and precisiontemp and all got different replies on useage and prices.
I am going to stick with the good old Coleman with a direct coil from the DD to heat it whilst under way.
Peter. |
CoryDaneRTSII-NE_IL (198.29.191.148)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 6:49 am: | |
I can safely state that the ventless fireplace/heater puts out a lot of heat, about 30,000btu. It will actually cycle on and off through the thermostat settings. Sorry, cant comment on any moisture problem yet as I have not seen one, but I will keep playing with it and see where we end up.-cd |
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