| Author |
Message |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 7:28 pm: | |
I posted this in reply to another post but it was so far down the list I thought it might not get seen, so here it is.
Chris
>>>>>
OK. I used to post here quite a bit before I began working on VO systems, this has not only taken all my time but it has taken over my business as well, I closed my repair shoip and now all we do is design, build and sell VO systems for diesels. In addition to taking over my business it has taken most of the time away from my conversion of a 40' Neoplan Cityliner I bought on this site!
The bus is comming along, stripped, floor leveled, bedroom in and working my way forward, currently dealing with two sets of pocket doors, what a headache.
Biodiesel - word of caution. I have been riunning it for several years and while it has many advantages, there are some points which should be considered. 1) Below 30F it will gell and you will not be starting on it, so if you are going into the cold, mix at least 10% Petro diesel in. 2)Biodiesel will destroy rubber lines and seals. Pre 92 Volkswagens will have IP failures, the rubber connecting the filler to the tank will fail as will the rubber lines connecting the injectors. Mercedes will have failures at the rubber lines connecting the tank to the hard lines and at the injector return lines. Bus fuel systems will suffer the same issues so look into your fuel system before filling the tank with something which will melt the lines and seals. Viton is the material of choice for biodiesel lines although Teflon will also work. Viton is very expensive although Dayco makes a fuel line called "Dayco Gen 2 Fuel injection hose" which has a viton liner and is less expensive, I do not believe Parker makes anything. It is American made, biodegradable and has many advantages enviromentaly as well as to your health, it is about 70% cleaner than petro diesel.
Vegetable oil -
Let me say that to begine I built a biodiesel processor which fir in the bay of my bus and made biodiesel on board...or tried. To make biodieselk you must be sitting still for about a day, have methanol and lye and a power source, if you mess up the chemistry you get 80 gallons of soap, if you mess up the system you get an explosion. I gave up on this and began painstaking research on straight vegetable oil as a fuel. The basics are as follows:
A diesel engine will burn VO but if not done properly it will destroy the engine. VO is 12 times more viscous (thicker) than diesel and injecting it through an injector designed to atomize diesel is like trying to spray butter through a windex bottle. The easiest way to solve this issue is to thin the oil through thermal degradation (heating) and 150F - 160F is the magic temperature. In addition for reasons too complicated to go into here, the engine must be hot as well. So since the engine needs to be hot and the fuel needs to be hot,I designed a system which allows the engine to be started on diesel, when the coolant reaches 180F the system is capable of delivering VO at 160F and a computer switches the fuel source to VO. Before shutting down, the computer goes through a purge cycle which washes all the VO from the fuel system with diesel insuring that the engine will be restarted on diesel.
The system is composed of a heated fuel tank, heated lines, a final fuel heat exchanger, switching valves and a computer which controls the whole lot. Details of the systems we do for cars and trucks is at www.frybrid.com
For my bus I have a more complicated system composed of two heated tanks, one is for dirty used vegetable oil from the waste bin at a restaruant, the other is the clean tank from which the engine draws. The dirty tank is heated by coolant while driving and as it cools the suspended particulate matter and water settle to the tank bottom, in the morning this crud is drained off and when driving the next run, the tank reaches 140F and the oil is pumped from the dirty tank through filters down to 2 microns and into the clean tank. This process can also be accomplished with the electric heaters installed while on shore power or off the genset.
My bus is powered by a 6V92TA and as an experiment I installed a system on a 1966 Frieghtliner cabover fitted with a 6V71 and ran the crap out of it doing oil analysis before and after as well as boroscope inspection. Clean as a whistle!
While this type of system is not for everyone, it works for many. I have several 275 gallon totes in my shop and a 80 gallon water heater converted into a filter system. I collect oil from several local restaruants at a rate of about 55 gallons a month, this is heated in the water heater and pumped through industrial filters into the totes as clean oil. My bus system has a capacity of 350 gallons of VO and the stock 150 gallon diesel tank giving me a range of 3000 miles from home without refilling.
Check it out and I am happy to answer questions. While we do not currently offer bus systems, I likely will do so.
Chris |
Phil Dumpster2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 1:19 am: | |
That's the kind of information I've been wanting to see.
Could you post the boroscope pictures you have? I also have a 6V92TA and would be most interested in seeing what the injectors look like after 10,000 miles. |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:01 am: | |
Facinating post, Chris. Looks like you've been burning the midnight veggie oil on R&D in this field.
IMHO, the time is ripe for WVO to take off in USA/ Canada on a large(r) scale.
When/if you do manuf. WVO systems for busses, you should consider BNO for some of your advertising $, because I'd imagine full-time busnuts might beat a path to your door.
bb |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:18 am: | |
I think the biggest problem with WVO is supply. The quantity is so limited that a medium size trucking company would use the entire supply in the state. If it becomes more popular the supply and demand scenario will quickly put a price on it. With a commercial dealer picking it up and reselling it, the price will be what the market will bear. If used as a road fuel the taxing authorities will jump in.
If you find a 'free lunch' there will soon be a lineup at the door. |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
Stan - just Mom and Pop businesses generate enough VO to off set national consumption by 25%, include bigger business and industry and you easily have 40%. Just in Seattle I have been contacted by 3 multi location restaruants asking me to take their oil, better than 9,000 gallons a month between them. Another source in CA produces 28,000 gallons a month of unused VO as a byproduct of it's botteling process. A small co-op group could tap a source like this and get a years supply,. We have buses stop by once a week who are traveling across the country simply collecting from small restauraunts.
Phil- I do not have any Boroscope picutres althogh I should take some, I do have photos of other engines, both IDI and DI after running VO. It is not injectors which are the issue, it is carbon formation on the piston causeing ring siezure that is the real problem, this is caused by incomplete combustion of the fuel which may or may not result in injector coking as well. This mechanism of failure is frequestly caused by injection of oil which has not been sufficiently heated to reduce it's voscosity. Since it is nto atomized properly, the flame front in the combustion chamber can not burn it completely and the larger droplets simply become carbon from the heat and pressure and stick to the piston and compression ring. |
Randall Hays (Bulldogie)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:39 am: | |
In the midwest there is a company that picks up alomst all of the veg oil but they will sell it for about $1.25 per gallon which at $3.00 per gal for diesel is almost cost effective but you need to buy at least 3,000 gal to make the transprotation costs effective. Don't know if I will go that route with my age and all, I seem to be slowing down quite a bit now. Randall |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:32 pm: | |
Be careful buying from renderers, they tend to mix all the animal fat with the Vegetable oil making it useless. Waste oil is a commodity called "Yellow Grease" and is listed in the paper, it has a value of $.17 a pound @ 7 lbs to the gallon is $1.19 a gallon.
I have probably sold 60 systems to people in the midwest, all are collecting from mom and pop places. Don't dismiss it as an option until you look into it a bit, ask the places you eat if they would be willing to let you have thier oil just to find out. On another note vegetable oil can be purchased in bulk and a few of my customers actualy buy it at bulk food outlets for $1.90 a gallon.
Here in Seattle I have more places wanting me to take thier oil than I have ability to use. This idea is not for everyone but is viable for some.
Chris |
gillig-dan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:37 pm: | |
Everywhere that I've know of, restaurants are charged to haul off their waste oil. To then pay the hauler $1.25/gal seems crazy.
Larger biodiesel plants are using subsidized virgin oil for their production.
I don't think many people would go through the hastle of collecting and processing oil just to fill their diesel car or truck unless prices jump to well over $5/gal.
I would run WVO, but it scares me to put it in my motor without knowing just what's in it. If I could find a source for good clean WVO, I would consider running it.
Another reason biodiesel is right for me is so I can burn it for home heating oil. The only reservations I have on using biodiesel, is the hords of teenagers we have hanging around the house. They would probably eat me out of house and home because of the constant smell of french fries cooking.
I am currently trying to recruit some people into starting a co-op to make biodiesel. A friend of mine, who runs a performance engine machine shop, sells methonal and uses large amounts caustic. That would be a great source for the needed chemicals.
Gillig-Dan
'70 Gillig 636D
Currently running on commercial biodiesel(b100) |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi Christopher - Kudo's to you for your work - Question: Have you or any one you know of published, or is about to publish, any documented study of WVO's long term (relatively) affects on 2 stroke diesels? - I don't care if WVO is the same price as diesel, as I just would like to cut the oil baron's and refineries off at the knees - I do however care about destroying a mill with only 100k+ miles on it - I have been a Guinea Pig before with mixed results, and the cost of being wrong on this one could be high enough to scare me away sans some independent verifiable research - I don't doubt what you posted above, just gun shy IYKWIM - keep up the good work - I look forward to future info from you on WVO -Niles |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 2:52 pm: | |
Bob Sheaves bought a Flx 870 that was a Gov't program "bio-diesel project" bus. Ran fine up to the time he stored it.
Again, this was the trans-esterfied version not WVO |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:11 pm: | |
Dan - Many parts of the country renderers actually pay collect the oil, not much a few cents a gallon, but they do pay. The other issue is that the business owners want someone who will take all the oil, not just come when they like. I have then sign a contract and I deliver a 55 gal drum modified with a filter in the top and a port near the bottom, when they call and tell me it is getting full I drive over and connect a hose to the port and pump it out.
"I don't think many people would go through the hastle of collecting and processing oil just to fill their diesel car or truck unless prices jump to well over $5/gal." You are wrong on this one, have a look at the forum section of my site and you will find hundreds of people collecting and filtering. One of my clients is a sugeon, I converted a 1987 Mercedes 300SDL for him last year, since then I have done another newer Mercedes and he has just ordered a generator to power his house. He has made deals with a Oriental restauraunt near his practice in Portland, OR and another near his other practice in Edmonds, WA. and after work he goes by and collects the oil in the 5 gal boxes it comes in. I have other users who spend part of sunday collecting from the sources they have and power F350 construction trucks with it, etc, etc.
Remember that VO is kept at 450F in the fryer, so there si little in it that has not burnt up and turned to carbon, this is removed when you filter it down to 2 microns, so what you have is VO and nothing else. Make some biodiesel before you decide it is the way for you, and remember you can not make it on the road so you are limited to what you can carry. I recomment a book called "The biodiesel homebrew guide" by "Girl Mark" it is the best text on the subject and the safest, other methods have resulted in several fires.
Niles - There are a good number of studies posted on my site on the "R&D" page, none however have been performed with a system which heats the oil to 160F and requires that the engine is started and shutdown on Diesel. Hal Hewitt drove across Canada several times in a GMC with a 6V71 and a really basic system using waste veg oil filtered on the road and had no issues after better than 30K. There is a guy with a 99 Mac truck who has posted on the net as "Veggi Mac" who has logged nearly 1,000,000 miles on VO as a cross country trucker.
The issue with VO is simply one of getting it hot enough to be properly atomized so that it can burn completely, and of being sure that the surfaces of the combustion chamber are hot when the oil is injected to prevent pre ignition oil from carbonizing on these surfaces. Diesel originaly designed the engine to run on Peanut oil. Modern engines have been redesigned to burn diesel, this is why we need to heat the oil to aproximate the viscosity of diesel. I can not say that burning VO for everyone will be the Holy Grail, I have seen people destroy a brand new engine is 10K on a Porsche by lugging it everywhere. I can tell you that used properly you can burn VO better than 90% of the time with no ill effects. I drove my truck from Seattle to Boise and burned only 1 gallon of Diesel.
On my Neoplan I can replace the motor for 3k, which I could spend on fuel in only 6000 miles. I advise everyone considering this type of conversion to begin doing oil analysis for a few thousand miles if they are not already doing so (I do one every oil change) to establish a base line, after the conversion continue doing so and if you notice anything out of the ordinary, stop.
I only run VO when on the road, never while idling and my system only switches once the system can deliver fuel at a min of 160F.
See the following links for buses on VO:
http://www.circleoflife.org/WTP2004/planet_bus.php
http://www.aphrodesia.org/veggie.htm
http://www.veggiebus.com/
And many others, I did not invent this technology, I simply took a backyard system and made it functional. I managed to get 3 patents on different parts of the system and took what others were making from parts from Home Depot and built a system which actually worked properly and was computer controlled.
Chris |
Mci 9 Tah Rei
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 4:30 pm: | |
Hey Chris,
I've got an Mci 9 with a 6v92 TA engine and plan on converting to run on VO. I'm in Portland getting my engine rebuilt. Do you do conversions or know of someone in the Northwest? Great knowledge. Thanks. I feel more confident with the conversion after checking out this blog.
Tah Rei |
Ian Giffin (Admin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:49 pm: | |
Snippet, "it was so far down the list I thought it might not get seen".
Chris,
Your reason for starting a new thread is unfounded. This thread can be seen at any time by typing in the word "biodiesel" in the search engine. All the messages relating to this thread will be archived forever.
To lend continuity to your topic, I have grouped all related messages into this single thread.
Ian Giffin
www.busnut.com |
Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:00 pm: | |
Thank you Ian, sorry for the misunderstanding, I am not that familiar with the architecture of this forum yet.
Tah - you have an easy engine to convert but I will warn you - be careful of conversions! I began all my research as a reaction to having bought thousands of dollars worth of other systems and found them terrible. I am not saying you have to buy anything from me but I am saying that I do not know of any other company selling a system which addresses the issues properly. If you are going to do a DIY thing go to my forum and start asking questions. When I set the forum up I did so in reaction to being asked not to post tech info on other forums other than what related to the products they offered. I started my own and invited every system manufacturer to participate, many do, some don't.
Of the 9 bus conversions I have seen recently, two came to my shop with dysfunctional systems which we ended up pulling out completely. The others I gave an explanation of why they were not working properly and what would go wrong and why. Once people understand the system they think they can just cobble something together and it will work, when it does they are convinced that they are a genius and start offering to build systems for everyone who will listen. The fact is that a Diesel will run on crap for a while, just because it runs now does not mean it will still be doing so in 6 months.
The oil MUST be at 160F before it is injected and the entire system must be heated to insure proper fuel delivery and filtering. On applications like a bus the filter needs to be quite large and well heated, I actually built a filter for my bus by building a body for a Racor fg1000 where the center of the body was replaced by a aluminum tube with a 1” deep jacket which is filled with circulating engine coolant. VO is fed in via a valve right before the pump which selects between diesel and VO as dictated by the computer, the return lines are similarly controlled with a valve. When the engine coolant gets to 180F the computer switches the system to VO, if the fuel ever drops below 160F it switches back to diesel, and so on.
If you are interested in doing your bus drop me a line at info@frybrid.com
Chris |
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