| Author | Message | ||
| David Kurtz Rating: N/A |
Just read about the 4106 tranny trouble near Detroit. I knew there was an automatic available for our '06, but was told probably $10 thousand (Cdn) installed. Is that true for a VS2-8 or for a V730? Who might have one for sale and how much? Thanks in advance guys (& gals). | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Awhile back I seem to remember Nimco having the VS2-8 on their website for about $1500. But there's lot$ of extra work to do on the bulkheads and such. Extra cooling, too. Going downhill would be scary with a VS when it downshifts, so a Jake would have to be added. My ugly old Fishbowl I sold to fearless Cannuck Paul Collyer had practically a brand new VS2-8 in her. He now has two FBs to make one converted one out of. I think he also has a V730 and is still debating which tranny to use. He might be a good guy to talk to. Great guy, BTW. And good old Don/TX swears by the '06/VS2-8 combo (85mph @ 10mpg), but there's a LOT of things to consider... like going up and down hills. The V730 is much more modern, and a more rational choice, but you'll pay at the pump and suffer top end to boot. Is shifting gears really so bad? It's practically automatic to me now, using the patented RJ system. I'd still like a Jake, though, after doing my share of 29mph downgrades last week. Oh, and a turbo. Heck, how about a Series 60 since I'm dreaming?! Anyways, just random, late night thoughts... Good luck! bb PD4106-1175 Longmont, CO USA | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Found the Nimco link. Looks like they're pretty cheap (for the trannies anyway). http://www.nimcobus.com/catalog/newlook_page1.shtml | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
bb, I've driven a 4106 with an 8V71 and a VS2-8 through the mountains of Kentucky, Tennessee, and Northern Georgia, with no problems or worry's whatsoever. What kind of downshift problems are you talking about? How steep were the grades when you had your problem? | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry JJ, I meant to say UPshift. On my Fishbowl there was no provisions for driver interaction with the OD. Just F and R. It would hit a certain rpm and upshift from hydraulic to direct, then OD. It really scared me in the Black Hills. Maybe with an aftermarket installation you can actually control the shifting (mine was stock), but I was under the impression that it's an rpm-shifting tranny, unlike the V730. I could well be wrong on that. Could you shift yours? If so, and you had no problems back East (where the grades are actually steeper in places than out West), my concerns are probably unfounded then. Thanks, bb | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
An advantage of the VS over the 730 is the weight is less , cooling requirements less , and the hole in the structural bulkhead is smaller. Most who have them LOVE them. But I'm told parts are harder to find. FAST FRED | ||
| bill chisholm (Billybandman)
Rating: N/A |
I have 3 - V730's that were just taken out of RTS's for $750 each. For that I will put on a pallet. I am in Oregon. | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
Don KS/TX has a schematic for how to rig solenoids to prevent or control upshifts on the VS2-8. Upshift functions are controlled via outside tubing or hoses between governor, valve body & splitter clutch (overdrive). | ||
| PAUL COLLYER (Paso_1)
Rating: N/A |
Yes I still have the VS2-8 tranny and I plan on using the V730 I am also interested in using Bill Teal's plans for a overdrive on the V730 and as I understand it you need to use some Parts from the VS2-8 tranny ( the overdrive) Because Brians old fishbowl tranny shifts so nice and is fresh I've waffled on the finished product. I would use the VS2-8 tranny but with a 4:10 rear end thats already in the bus I'm afraid I might not get it rolling. I believe most VS2-8 trannys were used with high numbered differentials. In BB case his Fish had a 5:38 rear end. But travelled 75. BB still haven't cracked the safe yet  David are you in Canada? | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Paul brings up a good point. I seem to remember reading that VS2-8's can have different OD ratios. Paul's is probably a 0.6, since the Seattle Metro (its original livery) ordered these Fishbowls to make their Suburbans runs at highway speeds. And the VS2-8 was designed for the New Look transits to put them in highway service utilizing their street gearing. A tranny with this high of an OD probably won't work with any parlor coach rear end. Case in point: using Daris' handy calculator, Paul's new FB (my old bus) turns 1900rpm at 75mph with the 5:38 rear (making some assumptions about the bevel gear ratio, etc.). With Paul's 4:10 rear end, a bus would theoretically go 98mph at the same rpm!! BUT, it would never likely get up to that speed because of the high gearing. Like Paul says, it might not even get rolling. I think his idea of modifying a V730 with a VS2-8 OD is probably the best of all worlds. An 0.6 OD in a V730 might just be the right combo, I dunno. Keep your fingers crossed on the safe-crackin', Paul. Might be enough cash or jewlels in there for a Prevost. bb | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
VS2-6 is actually a better choice. The final gear ratio is just slightly higher than the spicer (.8 vs .808). This way the final product will be close to the spicer in MPG and MPH and direct drive (lockup without OD) will be close to the spicer 3rd gear giving a great Jake brake effect. If my memory serves me right I believe the overdrive ratios for the VS2-8 were about .7:1 and .6:1. With a good engine the .7 will work, but the .6 may be to much except down hill. This based on a 4.11 rear end in a 4106. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A |
Other than Teal's setup which was sold with his coach last year, I don't know of anyone else that has made one up. I am considering on doing it too, but would like to find out how durable it is.Hate to have it go out 1000 miles away from home.Looks to be an almost perfect setup and a way to get the good fuel mileage back like the manual trans has. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
bb, I agree, the upshift into lockup (OD) would be scary on a downhill if not watched carefully. I had no trouble keeping the RPM down to the point that I didn't worry about the upshift situation. No idea what the rear end ratio is, but it's a fresh majored 8V71 in a 4106, and I've had it to 92 MPH (radar)and room left on the pedal !!!!!!!!!! I have a Spicer manual in my 4905, but also have a VS2-6 available, and have considered changing it out. Cheers...JJ | ||
| PAUL COLLYER (Paso_1)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Fred you mention the hole in the bulk head is smaller with the VS tranny Is the hole that much bigger with the V730?? The bus I'm going to end up putting the V730 in will have the smaller hole I believe as it currently has the VH9 tranny which I believe would be a small hole. JJ Does your 4905 have the 6V71 motor? You would consider changing it out just to go to the automatic?? BB the V730 also apparently has differant ratios in the final drive I've yet to determine if the 730 I have is a "good" one or not. I can't get under the unit to see if there is a tag on the tranny or not so I can check the model to confirm what the final ratio is. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"Hi Fred you mention the hole in the bulk head is smaller with the VS tranny Is the hole that much bigger with the V730?? " Yes , so it needs more reinforcing around the larger hole. FAST FRED " | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Paul, You do not have to worry, there is only one final drive ratio in all V730s. There are a few folks who insist there were two but they are quite simply wrong. The existance of a so called underdrive V730 is the busnut's urban legend. There are some 30+ variants of V730s with different torque converters, shift points, valve types, and with and without PTOs but only one final drive ratio, 0.875. Regards Jerry | ||
| PAUL COLLYER (Paso_1)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks Jerry I'm a sucker for urban legends I guess as I did believe it. If I do find the tranny # do you know what the variants are?? | ||
| Craig Craddock (Gs4)
Rating: N/A |
Jerry What do you base this info on? If you are the one that stated about a year ago on the GM board that a friend could not find it in the parts book. I find that many times a parts man can not find the number because DD has dropped it from their info. Can you explain why one my friends has a repowered 4104. It has a 4.10 rear end and his top speed is 65mph at 2250 rpm's. Which is exactly the same thing I once had in my 4104 with the stock spicer of a 1 to 1 ratio and a 4.125 rear end. There are others more knowledgeable than me that stated that in the Seattle or Portland area they used this other V730 and they were used behind 6V71's. Sorry, but I question the non existence of the 1 to 1 ratio V730. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Jerry, I don't know the right answer to the underdrive question, but I remember from last year's Bus'n USA that Hondo Joe said that he had one. IIRC, he had an 8V71 stuffed into his 4104, as well. If he sees these posts, he might get on line. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| HondoJoe04
Rating: N/A |
Hi Tom & Jerry; I don't know the answer to the underdrive question either...BUT I believe I happen to have one in my 4104/6v92T w/ 4.10 ratio differential. (That was Kirby w/ the cool 8v71 04 "Night Train") While I would like to go 75-85 like I can in my MC5 I just plain cannot. I have my governor wicked up to about 2400 rpm giving me 72-73 mph. I can pass cars/trucks real fast from 55-73. My regular cruising speed is about 2000-2100 rpm which gives me an accurate 60 mph. 65mph=2250 or so. So how all this compares to you, you decide. I consistently get 7.5 mpg kinda low due to the higher revs. I installed a King Cruise (one great investment for $750) to help keep the RPM speed down. It too easily runs up to top speed thus I have to watch the speed. Better to watch the road I think..... I had my King Cruise worked on at the factory in Bloomington, MN. Steve there was great & has good deals on internet sales "factory reconditioned units" for $650. Best to call him at area 952-??? Have to look. While there I also picked up a Kingdome automatic satellite dish for $900 off the internet salesman "Factory Reconditioned" like new on the shelf.....email me if interested & somewhere I can find these 2 guys numbers. kingdome.com or something like that.. Hondo Joe | ||
| Bob Gallo
Rating: N/A |
My drivetrain complement. 6V92 (350hp)/V730. 4.10 ratio. 24.5 tires on 4106. Top speed 76 governed at 2150. My normal cruise @ 68mph/1900rpm. Just completed a trip holding speed at 65. Was able to get 7.2 mpg w/toad. (my 8V71 would rarely get better than 7.5) I also have a King cruise. It doesn't pull to full throttle so I'm boost limited at 9 psi. This is to my advantage for fuel economy. If I need the power, I step on the pedal. | ||
| HondoJoe04
Rating: N/A |
Bob, SOunds like a rocket ship. 2150@76mph. Can you imagine the top speed at 2400 rpm..... Obviously I do have something going on like the supposed to not exist underdrive tranny. I was told to get the big single rear wheel 24.5 inch floats. Like used on dump trucks, etc. One big tire in place of the duals, a much larger size that will give me more top end. I have not heard much about anyone using these. But want to hear about it. HondoJoe "Money Pit" F908s | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"I have not heard much about anyone using these. But want to hear about it. ' Looked into them , but the cost of a new set of wheels gets the price up. Biggest fear is waiting a week in Podunk to get a replacement shipped in . Fuel consumption should go down and some offer an even larger diameter than the 24.5's which would help the engine life issues. FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
HOndaJo, as I recall on my coach an increase of 100 rpm equated to approximately 5 mph increase in speed. Richard | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Honda Joe - RE: The Super Singles. No one's mentioned it yet, but you may have some serious wheelwell clearance issues with these. A couple of 4104/4106 owners I know have reported rubbing in certain situations with 11R24.5s. FWIW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Hi RJ, Sorry I missed you in Fresno, had to rush up hwy 395 from LA to Reno, thought of calling you to come on over East. Lots of good guidance above, but something that seems to get lost is that some 4905's came with VS2/8, no firewall cutout is required. I found that with an 8v71, increased rpm quickly meant increased fuel consumption. The VS2 will shift on its own, no throttle modulation, shifting up around 1700, shifting down around 1100. With the old 8v71 in the GM buses, maximum torque is around 1100 rpm, decreasing as the rpm increases, so why would anyone want to make em scream? Mine was geared to run near 140 mph, so downhill with a huge tailwind was a fast trip for sure. So who cares if it has to shift down when it sees a big hill, that is what an automatic does - by itself! Downshifting goes from OD, down to direct, and THEN it shifts into hydraulic (kicks in the torque converter) When you are going DOWN hill, and you slow to about 20mph, hydraulic kicks in and you are essentially free wheeling. If your brakes are not good enough to get you stopped from 20 mph, better get your brakes fixed, cause the jakes are then worthless! | ||
| Dale L. Waller (Happycampersrus)
Rating: N/A |
The super singles are not a great idea on a bus. I work for Turman sawmill in the truck garage. We have some short haul log trucks with the super singles, They are a bear to remove from the truck they weigh a bunch (twice a regular wheel) so just rolling them into a pickup is difficult. Getting the tire places to work on them cost extra. The loggers say they are not ever balanced right. Not everyone will have them in stock. I asked our parts guy he said the rim cost what you can get 3 8x24.5 rims for, but Turman has got money. I would also be willing to bet that roadside repair probably couldn't or wouldn't want to work on one on the side of the interstate. I'm not trying to be negative here, but I see this junk everyday. Dale | ||
| HondoJoe
Rating: N/A |
Hi, Well the tire & wheel price didn't scare me from the super singles. But RJ, if the 11r24.5s may rub on occassion. These would likely rub ALOT! They are a good bit larger. I got all the specs & prices........in a pile somewhere from my recent long trip...... so I can't post this now. DML, I wish my 100rpm=5mph but no it does not. 2 grand about 60. 2400 about 73. Seems to vary some via the torque converter tho. I am thinking less about speed & more about fuel economy today as it is. But with my underdrive 730 I am stuck at 7.5 mpg. Thats' it. Wish I could get 10 like FF, but just wishing.... But Richard, I can say what I remember you said some time ago.......Something like what's the rush...I travel the 2 laners at 60-65 and this is just fine. If you tow, you oughta go slow. 55mph speed limit in CA where I live. I just travelled CA to MN to MT to CO to CA, hardly on any 4 laner. Happier to be there too. But now I do not tow, likely later. NO PROBLEMS at all in my 50 YEAR old bus. 10,000 miles+ Had the bus serviced at ABC Bus in Faribault, MN Old Burt there even aligned my front door almost perfect & it needed ALOT of help. FF, With my super radiator I mostly run at 170*. The hardest pull then close to but under 195. & That was I70 Eisenhower tunnel. I appreciated the underdrive there pulling me up & along at about 35mph. Downhill to Silverhtorne was a breeze. Lite traffic & Jake brake held us at 55 & hardly used the brakes. Felt like I was driving a SportsCar. SWEET!! Wish I was there instead of here!!! HondoJoe | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
HondoJoe - What brand, model and size tires do you have on your drive axle? Also, can you measure the diameter (horizontally, NOT vertically!) for me? Thanks. Gonna get out the calculator and do some number crunchin' when you get me that info. . . RJ | ||
| HondoJoe04
Rating: N/A |
RJ, I have Michelin X 12R22.5. I will measure the diameter tomorrow. I the circumference of the big float tires is 3-4 inches more than the 24.5 tire. I have these notes in the bus and got them from a tire dealer in MN last month. Any big truck tire dealer should have the exact specs & i will go look for them too. HJ |