| Author | Message | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: |
I have recently found a 6kw genset for $2000 brand new, it has a Yanmar diesel motor and is rated at 70db @ 21ft. Has anyone had any experience with this unit? http://www.federalmachinery.com/Diesel_Generators-Vortex_6KW_Silent_Diesel_Generator_w_ATS _Premium.html | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Not Knowing yammar engines, my only comments would be that as a 2-pole alternator, the engine is going to be spinning at 3600rpm, and their rating of 70db at 21 feet isn't all that "quiet".. ie a 7kw Onan marquis is rated 64db at ten foot, so this means in english that the thing is going to be roughly 4 times louder (6db is twice as loud and they're measuring it twice as far away so that about doubles the noise again) Added to the already louder spec, because of the 3600 RPM and being an air cooled diesel, the harmonic spectrum of the noise is going to be higher thus it will be a lot more noticable than the same DB of noise coming from a generator running at half the speed (ie the onan runs 4 pole @ 1800 rpm) And I have one of the Marquis sets, it's 1800 rpm and not all that quiet... so if noise is not much of an issue and/or you're planning on building it into one heck of an isolation box, it may be a great deal. Depends on how reliable yammar engines are.... Cheers | ||
| Sojourner (Jjimage)
Rating: N/A |
Bus nut Gene Rochester who has his 4cylinder diesel running so quiet that you had to see if grass buffing or cover exhaust with your hand to know it running. Long pipe between engine to two mufflers in series with lead wrap over complete exhaust system. That $2000 single cylinder 10hp @t 3600 rpm (2-pole) is like 2cylinder @1800 rpm to equal exhaust pulse noise. At 70db @ 21ft is hard to hear phone conversations. Plus hearing 1800 of “pop” or “bang” or “boom” noise every minute. Diesel 4cylinder is 3600 noise pulse per minute which is closer to humming noise. Another word the more pulsing noise per minute and lower the db to 35, you & everyone can sleep well. You can make single cylinder quite as 4cylinder but pulsating noise is more notable. Being air-cool is another factor to add “ringing” noise though exhaust air duct. Water-cool will dampen the “pinging” noise. In all being said, should have a dba (not db) noise level check with meter. “A” level is what our hearing is comfortable with at all octave points. http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/exposure/ FWIW A former General Motor noise lab tech. Sojourn for Christ, Jerry | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A |
Chris, The text reads "Yanmar Design", I have a couple of Kids 4 wheelers that "parts are interchangable with Honda" but are actually Chinese clones. For the price I would think it might be a copy. FWIW Cliff | ||
| Rich L. Rating: N/A |
These things seem to be all over eBay and at different prices and ratings. I noticed it said the engine was Yanmar design, as stated above, that may just mean it's a "Chinese Clone", not the real thing. Here's a line for one similar on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-COMMERCIAL-6000-WATT-6-KW-SILENT-DIESEL-GENERATOR_W0QQitemZ7553374 040QQcategoryZ106437QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem IF the link doesn't work just do a search on diesel generators on eBay. Good luck, Rich | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
I would avoid an air-cooled diesel. The comments made about the rpms are valid. I bought a used 3000 rpm belt-driven diesel genny. It's water-cooled, though, and a Kubota engine. The genny mauf. is Yamaha, and it was originally designed as a contractor unit with a big old quiet box around it, which I had to remove to shoehorn it into my old A/C condenser compt. It runs like a champ, but it's LOUD! I can attenuate it some with clever engineering of some sort, but it'll always be a 3000rpm unit. I don't regret it, however, because I simply couldn't justify paying twice as much for a newer/ quiter unit that I might put a hundred hours a year on. I paid $2500 for my genny, about half of new. I'd suspect any new diesel genny in the $2k range would not be a good choice for RV usage. Whatever you do, avoid Generac like the plague. Bad, bad, bad stuff. If you do have a few more $, I'd look at the gennys from Wrico: http://wricointernational.com/bus-generators.html or an Isuzu from Central Maine Diesel: http://www.generatorsales.com/isuzu_all11.asp?page=1 Otherwise, scour the used models on eBay and look for a Quiet Diesel or a used RV takeout. A 4 cyl. 1800rpm unit would be an ideal choice, water-cooled of course. You're wise to go diesel, IMHO. I've had air-cooled Onans in the past and am happy to be rid of the maint. and the big stinky gas tank. HTH, Brian Brown PD4106-1175 Longmont, CO USA | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
Nothing wrong with air cooled. Lombardini and Deutz make fine air cooled diesels. A 3600 RPM air cooled diesel will not come near 1/4 or the 20,000 hour life of a modern non Chinese water cooled diesel with a good brand 4 pole generator. For another couple of thousand and some careful shopping you can probably get a new 6KW generator with a Kubota or Isuzu engine. | ||
| dug Rating: N/A |
Yanmar is used alot in marine applications. As far as the engine, I would expect it would be a good unit. I have no personal experience with Yanmars, however. FWIW Dug 75 MC8 Arcadia, Fl | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A |
I have a gas 6.5kw Honda watercooled unit I had planned on using and switching it to Propane, maybe I will stick with it. Chris | ||
| Rob King Rating: N/A |
Hi Chris I had a 12.5 KW Yanmar in our Newell. It was water cooled diesel in a lead lined quiet box. It ran without problems for 3000 hours when we sold the Newell. The yanmars are known for long term running so the engine isn't the problem here except that it is air-cooled which I suspect you may find is louder than water cooled. I have purchased a used(250 hours) 12.5 KW yanmar/kholer from Colaw RV in Carthage MO out of a Bluebird for $2995 to put in Prevost bus conversion. It is water cooled, already made for RV so it is running at 1800 rpm. James at Colaws usually has 10-15 generators on hand at anytime, most new but some used. It is my opinion that you should think about going to http://www.ebaymotors.com and searching for diesel generators or call Colaws(1-417-548-2125 ask for James and tell him I referred you) or other RV salvage places(http://www.rvsurplussalvage.com) for used generators or at least call Dick Wrico at Wrico International for information and new generator prices before making a final decision. I think you will be happier in the long run. Rob King 91 Prevost Missouri | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A |
Chris, I have the similar/same 6.5 Honda, Let me know what you find on cost of parts, etc.. to convert to propane. FYI-If you have it out, check the cam shaft pulley for any looseness. There is a service bulletin out on this. A little Loktite cost me $300.00 (plus my labor)for a cam, pulley and belt. If you ever need a pulley I have an extra one(long expensive story) Other than that it runs like a sewing machine. Good Luck Cliff | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
PROPANE CONVERSION 1-A Cliff (And Chris) It's real simple to convert a gas genset to propane... the cost is mainly the regulator. There are two basic kinds, some made by Beam that will run off high pressure propane direct from the tank, and others made by Garrretson that run on low pressure such as you would get out of a home depot BBQ regulator. For a lot of reasons I like only one, the Garretson model KN. It makes the engine a lot easier to start, and using low pressure I feel it is safer in the plumbing as well. There are also 3 ways to convert... one is to buy a propane carb (expensive). #2 is to add a venturi adapter between the carb and air cleaner, (http://www.heartmagic.com/zzPropaneCarb.JPG) but this method usually results in difficult starting and is not the best way, although it doesn't compromise your carb if you want to go back to gas. #3 is to modify the carb. I prefer #3 because it is really cheap to do, simple, and it makes starting much easier when used in conjunction with the KN regulator. Here's a photo of how it's done: http://www.heartmagic.com/zzOnanCarbMod3.JPG This photo is of the mod I did on my Onan marquis 7.5kw gene. Basically you take the carb apart, remove the main jet and drill a 1/4" passageway all the way thru the jet and up into the venturi. Then you get a piece of 1/4"O.D. brass tubing, file a 45 degree end on it and stick it into the hole (you get it from a hobby store) From there you simply connect a hose from the other end to the garretson regulator, screw the idle jet closed, plug any small holes or passageways left in the carb with silicone and that's it. You can do the job mickey-mouse by holding the tube into the passageway with silicone or you can thread the 1/4" hole you drilled, solder a pipe fitting to the tube and screw it in- that's the better way and how I do it, and how it was done in the photo. Once you get the mods done, tuning is simple... close the adjustment valve and turn on the starter... begin opening the valve until the engine starts. You then keep opening the valve until the engine begins to stutter,back it off about halfway between there and where it started, and lock it down. That's the only adjustment necessary for both idle and run. I've done this mod on about 8 engines now, and the last time took me about 15 minutes. It's too simple! You need a valve in the hose between the regulator and the carb, to adjust richness. The garretson regulators I get always have that valve on them. If it's not, you need to get one. Here's a photo of the regulator with the adjustment valve. Note that the regulator MUST be mounted with it's "up" arrow pointing up... http://www.heartmagic.com/zzPropaneRegulator.JPG I get my regulators from an ebay guy who calls himself orca_power for about $75. New, they come with the richness valve and are nice because they also have a 12 volt priming solenoid that makes starting easier. For an RV setting you also need a 12 volt safety propane shutoff solenoid that you can get from him, installed in the low pressure feed line to the regulator... you wire it in with the gene's choke or ignition circuit so it comes on when you hit the gene's ignition switch. The Orca guy sells them for $35 If interested go to ebay and write to him... he doesn't have them all the time but he can usually get them. They come with a venturi adapter that I toss or resell on ebay. Here's his "write to" link http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowCoreAskSellerQuestion&requested=orca_power&ii d=7553462728&frm=284&redirect=0&SSPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI Last, If you can't figure this all out and want to spend a couple hundred dollars, you can get complete kits from these guys: http://www.propanecarbs.com/small_engines.html | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
This ad screams Chinese Copy. Yanmar design means that it is designed after a Yanmar. It is not a Yanmar. I.e. it is a diesel, therefore it is Yanmar design. 2 pole alternator means 3600 rpm screamer. Self exciting means no external voltage regulator, no way to adjust output voltage and very poor output voltage regulation from no load to full load. No name on name plate means no reputable manufacturer. Low noise 70 db at 21 ft means that you can not carry on a conversation at 6 feet. Run, run as fast as you can away from this junk. Richard | ||
| Jerry Crown Campbell Rating: N/A |
The Chinese needed an air cooled single cylinder diesel engine for the western market. So they ripped off Yanmar (excellent reputation in the marine world) for their design. The Chinese made only the block. They buy the internal parts (bearings, rods, etc.) from Japan, assemble the block and ship it to the US where Bosch injectors and other high quality parts are added to finish the engine. They (several companys) then add alternators from mostly europe and give it a paint job. I bought one of these made by another company two or three years ago for a back up battery charger. I am very happy with it. I have about 50 hours on it. They are NOT Quiet. Mine has no housing. But I can't imagine that would quiet it down much. It might not be the best boondocking generator. | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, Thanks for the detailed information, exactly what I was looking for. Cliff | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A |
Chris, your Honda genny has a great reputation, from what I've read. I'd keep that over any of the lower-priced/ lower-quality diesel gennys. Propane is a good choice for extended storage times typical of RVs and better emissions. It will cost more per hour as a fuel source, but shouldn't be an issue unless you're a serious boondocker. Plus, you'd only need the two fuel sources instead of three. Keep us posted... bb | ||
| JR
Rating: N/A |
The diesel genset discussion is well covered..but Brian B makes a point regarding converting gasoline gensets to propane...they are hungry on propane. Way more expensive to operate. You will have to add additional propane storage if you plan to operate a generator off propane. With the cost of propane, one would have to think carefully about the conversion. Check out the propane consumption of a generator designed for operation on propane. You'll be surprised. Gasoline is readily available anywhere...propane is not quite as easily aquired. Diesel is best. Diesel is by far the least expensive genset fuel. Propane does run clean, cranks readily in warm weather, but a propane generator may be difficult to start in cold weather. Also cannot use the last bit of fuel in tanks in cold weather. In really cold weather you may lose 20% or more capacity. Most folk probably don't use their coaches in really cold weather. Still...? JR | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Propane will easily vaporize at -20F, where diesels , even little lawn mower units get really balky about starting. Air Cond run times are the key to noisemaker selection , not boondockin considerations. If air is needed 24/7 diesel will do cheapest. If air is only needed a month or two during the day , the Propane is probably a better choice for camping. ESP with a 150A truck alt and 3 -4 stage regulator bolted on to do the House batset. Particularly for folks that choose to camp in good weather and have opening windows , the noisemaker may just sit un run from year to year. Propanes forte! FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
If you buy propane in the Southern areas of the country it WILL NOT vaporize when you get to the freezing areas. Propane stoves also quit working and there are cases where people have frozen to death because their propane heater would not work. If you are going to use propane in the cold climate, make sure your tanks are filled in the northern areas. Richard | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Rating: N/A |
I have to differ on the -20F Fred. I have owned propane power vehicles in the 90's...I live in the north country. If the vehicle isn't plugged in with a block heater after -10C, they can be a challenge to start and after -30C, even with a block heater they can be a challenge. Ron | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Pure propane at 70 degrees f has a vapor pressure of 110psi. It will definitely vaporize at -20f although it's only going to be 11.5 psi at that temperature. At minus 30 it's down to 6.8 psi. Regulators always have a pressure differential (in-to-output drop)... it's quite possible that 11psi may not be enough to get through some regulators.... The biggest problem is that in the process of using propane, it has to "boil" in the tank to convert from liquid to gas. Since you're not adding any heat to the tank, the "boiling" energy comes from latent heat stored in the propane and tank walls; in english, the tank gets colder and the pressure goes down as you use it. There isn't much thermal headroom at minus 20 so that's why you may experience trouble in the cold... sitting static there may be enough tank pressure to get things started but soon after the tank will freeze up and stop. The solution is to add some heat to the tank... a simple band heater would do wonders- simply adding a few hundred watts would keep it warm enough and replace the heat lost to the "boiling" well enough that things would work at minus 20 with no problems. And yes, Ron is right, in cold weather almost any engine is going to be hard to start. It's not so much the propane as it's how thick the oil is and how cold the cylinder walls are. If everything's cold, it's pretty hard to make anything go "boom". Block heaters are necesary even with propane engines if it gets cold enough.... Richard, I've never been aware that propane gets adultrated in the south... propane is pretty much propane wherever you buy it, at least that's my impression. I've been doing propane conversions and using it to power engines (and my first bus)for almost as long as you've been doing generators.. am I missing something? As far as cost of operation and efficency, the propane molecule is about 20% smaller than a gasoline molecule, thus it packs about 20% less power for a given volume. This almost directly translates to the fact that you'll have about 20% less power for a given engine running on propane than if it were running on gasoline. It goes almost exactly the other way for gasoline vs diesel. SO if a gallon of propane is costing you the same as a gallon of gas, yup, you're paying a lot more than necessary (20% more). But the savings comes in maintainanace... check your gene's oil after 1000 hours on propane, and you'll find that it looks the same as the day you put it in the engine. No wear. Virtually no maintainance. No worrys that it will start or not each season, because it will. Clean, smells good as compared to gas or diesel, etc. My way? I wouldn't do it any way other than propane!! Cheers | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
It is my understanding that propane distributed in the northern climes during cold weather is a mixture of propane and butane. The further north, the more butane. I am certain however that there is a difference. Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
WoW ! I'll have to look into that. It might make sense... ...time goes by as I research this... tick-tock-tick-tock- Ok, interesting. Richard, you're absolutely right, but for the wrong reason! "LPG" means any combination of propane and butane, and a few other "xxx-ane's" as side byproducts. So if you're buying "LPG" it's catch as catch can, you get any mixture they dicide to sell you. If you're buying "propane", you're buying propane. More interesting: Butane is much worse than propane at cold temperatures. It's pressure is only 3psi at 40 degrees and it quits vaporizing altogether at 32 degrees.v (this info from Teeco, a major propane hardware manufacturer, http://www.teecoproducts.com/Catalog/Q5.htm) To quote a webpage: ( http://www.e-lpg.com/lp_gas.asp ) "If the ambient temperature is very low propane is preferred to achieve higher vapor pressure at the given temperature". As it turns out, propane and butane are mixed in higher temperature weather, my guess is for economic reasons and to keep BBQ tank pressures down on hot days... and pure propane is preferred in low temperature environments. So it would make sense to fill your propane tanks in a cold climate area if you're gonna be bussin while freezin... more likely to get pure propane there than in the desert... So there you have it... some stuff none of us probably knew! Cheers | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Amazing...... Ever tried BBQing at 25 below with Propane purchased from the local supplier??? Doubtful and loooong cooking. BTDT (Almont and Gunnison Colorado) Happy Vapors...  RCB | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Cliff - Re: "There is a service bulletin out on this. " I have one also. Could you post a copy or provide a url for that bulletin? Oh... and... The manual says to mount the genset in an enclosure of their specific dimensions to provide the proper airflow for engine cooling. Is this mandatory? Can the genset be used without a "box" or "cover"? I plan to mount it in either the engine compartment or AC condenser compartment. | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A |
The 6.5 KW Gas honda genset i have has a radiator and small electric fan, I plan tot mount it so that he rad is at a bay dooe which I will modify with a screen and the floor is ventilated well, while trying to push hot air downward is not eh best plan, I think if I build a fan shroud around the face of the radiator I will be fine, if genset temps seem high I will add another fan to assist in air circulation. This genset is VERY quiet, even when fully loaded, it has remote start capabilities so I can sonnect it to a trace 4024 and I plan to have 10 to 14 8D batteries aboard. There will be roof air but frankly after living 8 years on the Baja, I found that having open windows and fans preferable to AC. When I had AC i was too hot outside and had a stuffed head, when I had open windows and fans I was fine in the day and could sleep at night without getting sinus conditions. All my windows are still in and every other one opens, so I have 6 x 6' windows I can open, next i have to find 2 x 40' automatic awning for a reasonable price. LOL, good luck. I am actually thinking about making them myself. CG | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A |
BTW- I have two under counter refers, both are 110VAC and powered by the battery bank, as are the 12vdc halogen lights drawing 1 watt each. I am hoping to last 3 days caustiously without having to fire the genset. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the research Gary. I knew there was something different but not really what it was. Thanks again. Richard | ||
| Cliff (Floridacracker)
Rating: N/A |
John, I cannot find a number on the service bulletin other than generator #8, But that maybe because my manual is on CD Rom and reflects updates to present. Chris, Thats exactly how I mounted mine, I put it in the a/c compartment up front on my 4905. It already has the ventilated door and I put stainless mesh over the lower opening for the old fan. It doesn't get hot on the road and I will do some tests for sitting still. I am installing a remote start and fuel gauge up by the driver. I found a guy that makes tanks for race/hot rods and am going to have a tank built to fit next to my existing diesel tank. It will come with the fitting holes exactly where I want them making it an easy install. Cliff |
