| Author |
Message |
pat young
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 4:40 am: | |
Howdy fellow busnuts.
I often tow a vehicle behind my bus with a tow bar, all four wheels down. I've done this with an Isuzu I-Mark, a Datsun B210 a Ford F250, and several Datusn pickups. All had manual transmissions, and I never have dropped the driveline in probably 5 years.
Well, last year the Ford F250 jumped into gear, and spun some stuff so fast it blew up the engine. I just guessed that the heavy Ford had a different transimission internally than the little Japanese cars, and that was why it happened.
Last week the Datsun pickup (all vehicles here are 2 wheel drive) jumped into 2nd gear twice at high speed, and it survived, but for awhile put out huge amounts of white smoke.
So the next time I towed it I used a bungee cord and thought I firmly bungeed it into the right side of neutral in the "H" shift pattern.
Whatever happened after that I'm not quite sure, all I know is that the bus wouldn't pull, and after a block or so I checked the truck and found it had jumped into reverse. It started after that, but quickly threw a rod or piston or something, and died .
So the 64,000 dollar question is, Does anyone know how to prevent this? It is a real pain in the neck to have to go under my pickup and drop the driveline a couple times a day as I shuttle buses.
ANY help or wise fellows wold be greatly appreciated. Only thing I have come up with would be some kind of a shifter restraint/immobilizer that would maybe slip over the center shift console, and lock the lever in neutral,..... but for know, I'm stumped
Patrick Young
Fresno, CA |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 5:26 am: | |
Cut out a hunk of plywood that fits between the dash & seats.
Hold it in place by running the seat up.
Install a hole in the ply where it will allow the shift lever to be locked in neutral?
FAST FRED |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 8:38 am: | |
Use a driveshaft disconnect by Remco.
http://www.remcotowing.com/ |
pete hyser (4501pete)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 12:57 pm: | |
were the transfer cases in neutral? ive seen the plywood thing fail..
at the cost of a moter...take the shafts out... |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 2:38 pm: | |
Pat, I can recommend the drive shaft disconnect by Remco that John suggested. There is, unfortunately, there is a cost associated with not only buying the unit and then having to have a drive shaft shop install it, but it is a fool proof device.
If you ever change toads, then you simply buy a used drive shaft to replace the one in the existing vehicle and then move the Remco to the new tow vehicle. Of course you would then have to pay to have the shop install it in the new toad.
Richard |
Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 8:18 pm: | |
For three to five hunnerd you can get a tow dolly and tow it in reverse, then even back up aways when needed.>>>Dan |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 9:37 pm: | |
Pat, You seem to have adopted a very nasty gremlin it appears. What you may have to do is find out what he wants and he will go away. He may also be saving you from something worse and sometimes although creating a stressful and expensive environment he may be trying to help.
On the other hand. Ask yourself what you may have done in the past that would cause the gremlin to go on the attack...
No I am not nutz but should be... I make peace with the gremlins whenever possible and they don't bother me so much anymore. Mine all have silly senses of humor and just keep hiding my tools...!!!
Then they put them back !! Gads ! I looked there! |
WA David (Wacoastmci)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 9:45 pm: | |
Patrick, your vehicles must be 2WD. With 4WD, shift the transfer case to neutral and transmission to Park if auto or neutral or whatever if manual. Before we got the 4WD's (Grand Cherokee, Chev 1500, Jeep Wrangler in succession) we towed a Toyota Camry manual 4 down in neutral and worried about it the whole time. With 4WD vehicle with a selectable neutral on transfer case, worry goes away. Otherwise, I agree with other posters, get a driveline disconnect. |
JR
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 10:05 pm: | |
Go to any towbar website (Blue Ox or Roadmaster) and check to see if the vehicle is listed as towable with 4 down. Most vehicles will not lubricate the transmission tailshaft and reverse gear bearings when towed in neutral. Eventually the input/output mainshaft bearing will sieze and the transmission will engage as it self-destructs. Very few 2WD vehicles are towable for any distance. The few that are towable without mods are front wheel drive. No AWD vehicles are towable. As already stated, most 4WD with a manually operated transfer case that has a "neutral" position are towable...Jeeps (with manual tranfers), Subaru, Saturn are towable. Most Jap 4WD SUVs and pickups (Toyota, Suzuki, Honda) require stopping every 100 or so miles and starting the engine to circulate the the trans oil. And quite a few toads are limited to 55 MPH...major problem. |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:22 pm: | |
Do notever tow any vehicle backward on a dolly under any circumstances! This will almost certainly lead to a major wreck, and quite possibly a totalled bus or dead bodies! Either tow 4-down, use a dolly the correct way, or get a trailer. |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:40 pm: | |
Duck, here we go!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:04 am: | |
BW-
Har de har har!
Yeah, been seeing reversed towed for years... |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:33 pm: | |
You may have seen reversed towed for years but it is never recommended by any tow dolly company and it has caused many accidents. Just because some person does it does not make it correct. U-HAUL specifically will not allow me to rent a tow dolly if the customer is planning on towing backward.
Richard |
Jim Bob
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | |
Well someone is going to have to ask. Might as well be me.
If the steering is locked straight ahead (By secure means OTHER than just the column lock, what is the big danger in towing backwards?
(Tow trucks tow RWD cars backwards ALL the time)! |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:32 pm: | |
Until someone comes up with a better answer my guess is that it has something to do with the geometry of the front wheel alignment. It is designed to maintain the vehicle in a straight line while going forward. I suspect that going backwards develops some extreme pressures on the front end.
If tow trucks do sometimes tow vehicles backwards I suspect that it would be for relatively short distances and at relatively low speeds. Johnny, the tow truck driver, where are you?
Richard |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:32 pm: | |
Richard -
Well...
From Monoco Coach comes these words:
"Tow dollies are similar to a trailer, but designed to transport
with two wheels of the towed vehicle on the ground. Tow dollies
can be used to raise either the front or rear end tires of the
vehicle off the ground – the preference is left up to the
vehicle operator. "
http://www.monacocoach.com/service/techtips/2004/6_25_04.html
From FMCA, comes this:
"2. Tow dolly:
A short, two-wheeled trailer that transports the towed vehicle
with two of its wheels off the ground. The dolly is first
coupled to the motorhome. Then the towed vehicle is driven up
the ramps so that the two drive wheels rest on the dolly and the
other two wheels are on the ground. The toad is then secured to
the dolly with straps and/or chains. Tow dollies are not
applicable to rear-wheel-drive vehicles, because vehicles should
not be towed backward."
http://www.fmca.com/motorhomingguide/research/towing/methods.asp
Demco, the leading maker of tow dollys, says this on page
four of their manual:
"All vehicles mounted on the Kar Kaddy must be mounted with the
front of the vehicle facing forward."
http://www.demco-products.com/Manuals/RV/RD20010.pdf
Croft ... The manufacturer of trailers, dollys, etc... says:
"Always drive the front wheels of the towed vehicle onto the Tow
Dolly. Do not load backwards."
http://www.crofttrailer.com/tow_instructions.htm
None give any explanation why the vehicle should be loaded
frontward. I would guess that they're in CMA mode and
don't feel the average bloke would know enough to lock the
steering wheel so the car will tow in a straight line, or use
a lamp bar with stop and turn lamps...
Although the towed vehicle's front caster -may- present a problem
with tracking (while being reverse-towed) at high speeds, it
isn't mentioned at any of the many sites that tell us "not to do it".
Kinda' like not running with scissors", or going blind after... ya'know..
(I just have poor vision in the right eye; good thing I wasn't ambidexterous)
I've seen RVs towing a vehicle backwards on a tow dolly, and
I'm sure everyone here has at one time or the other, also. If I
had a dolly and wanted to tow a rear-wheel drive vehicle, I personally
wouldn't give it a second thought, but I'd lock the steering and
use a lamp bar... |
John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:42 pm: | |
My only experience was a FWD Chevy Lumina towed front wheels down on a dolly, and it was a nightmare. The geometry was askew because it would suddenly start to whip back and forth. Increasing the tire pressure and tying the steering wheel solidly helped, but 50MPH was the top end on I-65 for 300 miles. There is enough play in the locked steering column to allow the front end to shimmy, and start a violent whipping motion. My predicament was so bad that passing motorists called the Alabama Highways Patrol about the "drunk" towing on northbound '65. "Ah well... I'll be in Tennessee soon." No joy, cops there pulled me over too. No ticket, but I probably should have had one! I absolutely wouldn't do it again. It was terifying to suddenly have the dolly start whipping across two full lanes, and almost shove the tow car into the median. ...JJ |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:52 pm: | |
JJ -
"FWD Chevy Lumina towed front wheels down on a dolly"
A four wheel drive Lumina? |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 11:55 pm: | |
Uhh .... John .... he meant FRONT WHEEL DRIVE .... FWIW - steering locks do not LOCK in a straight line - they lock either just right or left of perpendicular, which will make the REAR AXLE TOWED vehicle run staggered from dead center - not a problem if the airflow doesn't cause lateral destabization at high speed - unfortunately buses usually have a high degree of draft winds compressing within 10 feet of the rear bumper and direclty affecting vehicles that are more than 10 feet long in total length (including hitch) - those draft winds will cause horizontal pressure on the exposed staggered area driving it in the opposite direction which then puts it in the opposite draft propelling it (the TOWED) back and forth till it becomes totally destabilized - IMHO if you could provide for a totally centered alignment of the front wheels the only difference would be the weight applied to the dolly, which would only come into play with the bus or drivers ability to maintain a straight line of travel - any variation in direction is greatly exagerated when the majority of the weight of the vehicle is located aft of the centerline of the Dolly axle (as in front wheel drive vehicles with most of the weight forward of the midpoint of the wheelbase) - HTH - Niles |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:11 am: | |
Niles -
"Uhh .... John .... he meant FRONT WHEEL DRIVE "
That was my subtle point: Why would you tow a front-wheeled
vehicle by it's rear wheels? |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:59 am: | |
1991 Chevrolet Lumina
John - They do exist - and probably make as much sense as towing a rear wheel drive by the front wheels - FWIW - Niles
The Z34 was the only Lumina to be fitted with the 3.4 liter overhead cam V-6 that produced 210 hp. Mated with a 5 speed manual transmission made it a serious candidate for the sporting buyer. The cost for being sporty was $17,000. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:07 am: | |
Ok.. Some more input regarding reverse towing..
Apparently the steering wheel locking pin on many vehicles
is not designed to sustain the damaging force that may be
applied by a sudden, erratic and powerful jerk of the wheels
on the road surface, while moving.
Since there is no manufacturer's guideline regarding the amount
of force that locking pin must endure (it's only a theft deterrent),
no tow dolly manufacturer will suggest trusting it for stabilized
towing.
So.... I have been edukated! If I plan to reverse-tow, I think
I'd only do so with an aftermarket steering wheel locking device
that would hold the steering wheel in a straight ahead position.
(Post Steering Wheel Lock)
It isn't the problem of too loose steering components, it's the
possibility of the steering locking pin failing, causing the car to
spin out of control. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 10:21 am: | |
It all goes back to what Richard said originally. When you reverse the steering geometry the vehicle is unstable. When the caster and toe-in are set properly, the wheels will always try to be in the straight ahead position, even when disrupted by an irregular road surface. As the caster angle is increased, it takes an ever greater force to move the wheels of the straight ahead position.
In order to tow the vehicle on the steering axle in reverse it would need to have both caster and toe-in opposite to the adjustment made for forward driving. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 10:30 am: | |
I think all of us have seen a car towed backward but I do not really know how they handle at higher speeds.
Johns experience is what I would suspect generally. I still think the problem is wheel geometry first. They do not want to run straight when pulling backward and I feel it would be hard on the components even if you could lock a steering wheel in the exactly straight position.
Thanks John and Niles for all your thoughtful response. Maybe we need Clarke for a theoretical explanation. LOL |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:53 am: | |
The normal condition is for toe-in, which reverses to toe-out if you tow rear-forward.
Two things, you reduce/reverse caster which greatly increases acceleration loading to the front end during bump deflection.
More significantly, you now have a toe-out condition which is dynamiclly unstable and complicated by any wear to the system.
Toe-out is a routine set up in many race cars. It increases response on turn-in to a curve, but if is "darty" and must constantly be managed by the driver.
These is probabaly the major reason the mfgr's recommend against towing backwards
Onward and Upward |
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:51 pm: | |
Prior to fulltiming, we are going to tow our 2000 Ford Escort ZX2 for a couple years. It has a five speed manual transmission, front wheel dirve. The owners manual says it can be towed four down with no restrictions in speed or distance. Same info on Blue Ox and Good Sam sites. I presume they get the information from the various owners manuals.
I've towed full size Bronco and Toyota P/U 4x4, the Toyota having a five speed trans and manual transfer case. No problems with either.
Regarding the discussions above about jumping out of gear while in tow, can this happen to any manual trans vehicle or just a select few of certain characteristics?
In years of reading Motor Home and FMCA magazines I don't recall this being a wide spread problem. Did I miss something?
The wife is very partial to this car. And it has been extremely reliable. I don't want to screw up a good thing.
Chuck Newman
Oroville, CA |
Johnny
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 11:21 am: | |
The last time I towed backwards on a dolly, it almost pulled the truck off the road. This was a light car (Datsun Z-car, <3000lbs) and a big, long, heavy truck (Dodge W-300 Power wagon, ~7300lbs).
When I hoist a car from behind, I ratchet-strap the steering wheel to the brake pedal. If I'm going a long way, I either use a rollback or lift from the front.
Anyone towing backwards on a dolly should be arrested. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 5:15 am: | |
I think Fast Fred's suggestion is going to be the only foolproof way to keep the transmission in neutral. I have hit some bumps on I-95 that could easily cause a transmission to jump into gear. Conslider a better fastening than jambing the seat against the boare though. You could have a large hole for the gearshift knob off to the side for installation leading to a small slot for centering the gearshift in neutral. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 2:14 am: | |
I also wanted to mention that a used driveshaft disconnect can be bought for less than $200 used. look for one that already fits your toad. It will come with a driveshaft with disconnect already attached and the cable control mechanism. You could install it yourself. Because I drive a Mercedes I need extras like an adapter for the flexplate coupling on Mercedes driveshafts ($275) and I had to have the disconnect transferred to my driveshaft. But for many, many cars and trucks someone will have a complete driveshaft and cable control for that vehicle to sell for under $200. One of the toad equipment companies has a used toad equipment bulletin board listing where you can find one. Also on Ebay at times. If you need to have one transferred to your driveshaft, be sure you buy one on a same size or bigger driveshaft so remco can turn it down. Last years change over fee was $160 to have Remco change the disconnect to a new driveshaft. So it can be affordable, especially if you are towing a popular toad. |