| Author |
Message |
Rdub (158.252.0.92)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 10:22 am: | |
O.K., it's time to start installing wall plugs. I could use a good resource to help me avoid turning my bus into a 35 foot microwave. I'm planning (3) AC power sources: shore, genset, and inverter. I would like to have a 30A. and a 50A. shore power hook-up. I also would like to be able to use the house batteries to back up the bus starter batteries. I'm hoping to use the most efficient combination of transfer and isolation swiches to accomplish all this. If you have the answer I'll trade knowledge with you of everything I know about the mating habits of the Mongolian sand flea. |
FAST FRED (63.208.82.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 3:15 pm: | |
Unfortunately with so many boards ,
folks with brand X coaches don't visit the brand Y sites.
This was posted to the GM Yahoo board a while back.{modified here}
The choice of what wiring to use is always good for some discussion ,
mostly if the house code the RV mfg's chose to call a standard ,
is safest way to build coach.
MY way is to use boat cable for a whole bunch of reasons ,
although its not "approved" {cause it costs too much}
some of the high end conversion shops use it.
The rest is a choice of house size fuse boxes or much smaller , better{and more expensive} marine stuff.
The easiest way to solve the electric hook up dilemma:
Shore power needs to keep white and green separate,
Generator power needs to join green and white,
Inverter needs to join green and white,
IS to simply use a plug-in for the source supply.
A nice idea stolen from my old Wanderlodge where you would go into
the back of the clothes closet and pull a plug {the coach } out of
one socket {shore power} and push it into the other {gen set supply}.
No cruddy boards to burn, no relays to die ,
can be trouble shot by an idiot, at midnight, in the dark!
The use of this style hookup will not make safer old inverters to strange standards , but it hooks them up as their mfg hoped.
For easy access we chose a set of 4 pole sockets , mounted into the
top of the stock floor air supply duct.
One hooked to the shore supply line , the other socket wired to gen set.
Very flexible MARINE shore power cord {$6.00 a ft}hard wired to a
home depot plug, on one end , power distribution panel on other.
Big no brainer to pull plug and stick it in other socket.
Inverter output is plugged in to shore power inlet at rear where
power normally enters coach.
When we disconnect from the campground , we plug in the inverter.
This too requires no relays or other stuff to purchase , install ,
trouble shoot and repair.
Can't be done cheaper , simpler , or easier,or SAFER !
Not the system you would hear about from a guy selling
"Automatic Transfer Switches"
To isolate the battery system the std RV solenoid style works automatically and is easy to troubleshoot.
BUT as your coach has a real powerful alternator , it is best to combine systems with a 200A continuous unit , rather than the 75A in most RV's.
YOU can use 3 or 4 std RV units in parallel , but its messy , and with sooo many connections could be a DC juice waster.
The FMCA has back issues for free that covered this "Electrical Hookups " in the 80"s , ask and they will copy them.
FAST FRED |
Jerry (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2001 - 8:20 am: | |
Here's an interesting link I found about all different types of wire, their use, etc. http://www.generalcable.com/North_America/NA_Whats_Wire.htm |
Russ (172.180.209.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 6:58 am: | |
As usual Fred some of your advice is sound, however I do wish you would stop telling people that the NEC, NFPA and NSF are documents that can be ignored and to use USCG codes instead. Marine cable and codes are great if you plan on regularly imersing your bus in salt water. Whether you agree with the codes or not you must desist in telling people to ignore them. One day somebody who followed your advice is going to get hurt or worse and then hold you liable. If you think this can't happen ask a lawyer about gross negligence, major/minor manufacturers and private converters have been held responsible before for not following the APPROVED codes. As a retired contractor I don't agree with alot of the codes and laws imposed on us, But until they get changed I will do my best to abide by them. |
FAST FRED (63.215.231.168)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 8:23 am: | |
I only tell folks to ignore the parts of the house code that might KILL them when used in a vehicle.
An example {again} is that wire ends can "legally"be captured just with a screw in a terminal.
Great for the wall switch in your house but very POOR practice in anything that might ever move.
On every vehicle , boat , car , aircraft , even a Harley uses an end on the wire that then is mechanically and electrically fastened to the wire end , and that goes under the screw.
Another example is the use of solid wire vs, multiple stranded {preferably tinned} wire.
The codes are great to tell one how to wire, but the choice of house materials was done to insure the Mfg could use the cheapest , quickest Garbage , and to hire the lowest unskilled cheap labor to install it.
I'm not sure how any coach having wiring ,{ in some places ,that is exposed to road slush chemicals and water} will be harmed , by using a superior product , created for a hostile environment .
I'm not sure I can see any danger at all in using the best.
But if a home depot fuse box makes you feel better , under the code, than a marine grade circuit breaker setup ,,, go for it!
FAST FRED |
Mallie (208.165.105.109)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:02 am: | |
Redub:
I guess I don't have any questions about sand fleas, but I will make a note for future reference.
Jock Fugitt (Bus Jock) has a good, basic diagram on his web page, tho I can't seem to find it now. You can drop him a note and I am sure he would be glad to give it to you.
jockandkay@aol.com
There are many different ways to wire a coach, and much will depend on your layout, and electrical requirements etc. You will get a different idea on type of wire, etc, from almost everyone. Many factory coaches are wired with romax. Others use boat cable as Fred says, apparently not approved by electrical codes.
Most importantly, use proper size wire, be sure is it properly install, protected, supported, and properly fused.
If you do use advice off this BB or any other internet BB, and end up in court over failure, don't tell them you where you got the information, I would hate to see a judge die laughing.
Mallie |
Scott Whitney (63.151.68.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 12:33 pm: | |
'But, Your Honor, that is what they told me to do on the Internet.'
Just Kidding. . . I am sure FF's bus is wired meticulously to marine grade standards, which I am sure will work just fine. Don't think he is much worried about lawsuits though. . . Ever heard about his boobytraps? I'd hate to attempt breaking into his baggage bays!
Personlly, I won't be using Romex. My RV had it and it just don't seem right to use a solid cable where so much movement and vibration are issues. On the other hand, boat cable seems like overkill to me - but I suppose if I had it on hand, or had a low cost supply of it. . . I'll be using stranded TTHN in plastic conduit. Ten guage everywhere, for 120v and 12v. (but diff colors) I'll be making my own cables from individual conductors. I'll be running three wires for every 120v cable (black, white & green) and two for every 12v circuit (black & red). All 12v circuits will have the return ground and not chassis ground. Different voltage cables in separate conduits. That's my plan anyway.
Scott |
Scott Whitney (63.151.68.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 12:44 pm: | |
Oh BTW, I wouldn't bother trying to isolate battery banks with a standard automotive solenoid if you have a big bus alternator. I bought NAPA's biggest, heaviest duty solenoid ('Used on tractors and heavy equipment', the clerk said.) and promptly fried it after about 15 minutes of use with TWO deep cycle batts and my 300 amp alt. . . $20 bucks down the tubes. . . Now I use a big honking 400 amp (yes, marine type!) battery switch. But gotta remember to switch it after shutting engine off. . . Not foolproof but simple.
Scott |
Mallie (208.165.105.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 9:22 am: | |
Electrical is a subject in which there is very little agreement in the conversion crowd. I will throw a thought at you. I think I am going to use romax for AC. It is cheap (tho that is not a big factor), double insulated, stiff enough it will be easy to support, requires no special preparation in order to properly connect to the breakers, receptacles and other connections. It is easy to work with, and readily available. I have several rolls of stranded 10 and 12 ga, but I just can't see it is that much better.
Mallie |
C. Ray Powell (Raypowell) (152.163.197.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 6:50 pm: | |
Mallie, I agree! I used some romax.I did 80% of the wiring then I had it foamed. The wiring was anchored before foam was applied. Now the wiring it even more stable, I think. Now I need to run the control wires for relays.
C Ray |
Terry-Hawaii (66.8.185.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 1:22 am: | |
Well folks, I agree with Fred. Those of you who use solid wire(romex), even foamed in place are eventualy looking for trouble as the bus will flex and the wire could eventually break. See Real Goods Trading Co book on 12 volt wiring. It and the uniform electrical code calls for stranded wire due to the voltage loss of solid core VS. stranded wire. Also, it's less likely to fail due to vibration or flexing. Do you see ANY solid wire in a car? I don't think so! Codes constantly change but it is better to err on the side of common sense than use stuff that is suitable for buildings that don't move. Use the best stranded wire you can afford and Tie, tie, tie! I don't believe all of the electrical code is sound. Much of it is such old technology that it should buried along with the slotted screw. Have you ever had the door of your circuit breaker panel fall without warning when you were changing a breaker? Another example of a piss-poor 80 year old design that is still "code". Check out aircraft wiring or marine wiring for something that is "SAFE"
JMHO,
Terry-Hawaii |
C. Ray Powell (Raypowell) (205.188.199.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 9:53 pm: | |
Terry, A point well taken. We presently use a 1974 MH that used romex & was foamed in place. No problems. When I ran the romex in the bus I left a little slack on stress points. That is common sense as we know these things do flex. No, I have never had the door of a circuit breaker panel fall off without warning. But all I use is square D. I am sure & I'd hope that aircraft is superior.
FWIW
C Ray |
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