| Author | Message | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
hi guys  so while i'm looking for the engine and tranny for my scenicruiser, i'm finishing up work on my trailer i'll be towing with it. i do medieval reinactment on weekends. we also merchant. (sparklies, jinglies, espresso, sno cones, and food) power is generally not available, so we run the ice shaver off of a generator (5500w kawasaki) and we run everythng else off propane. so here we go i would like to eliminate the generator, or quiet it down a lot. it's not super loud, but it's louder than i would like. suggestions. the rest: the average event is 2 days. some big ones are up to 15. the burger patties come frozen. (about 3 cubic ft per day) the breakfast sandwich sausage patties come frozen. (about 1 cubic foot per day) eggs are fresh (about 5 dozen per day) ice is all over the scale, anywhere from 150 lbs a day to over 1500. (we generally hit the local ice company, wall mart, or whatever for ice) i can get ice for 88 cents a bag from my food supplier, but i then have to haul it further, (not really a problem) otherwise it's anywhere from $1 (wal mart) to $1.50 (most convenience stores) ice and frozen food cannot be in the same freezer. the other issue is garbage. some events have dumpsters, some don't. when they don't we have to haul it out ourselves. we can however burn the paper products (90% of it) if we can do it discreetly. (it's legal, but clouds of smoke is a bad thing) call it 5-10 bags of trash, tops. was thinking about building a propane fed incinerator into it. basically a cylinder about 3 ft high and 18" in diameter, with a funnel shaped bottom and a turkey cooker burner in the bottom, that ash can fall past, with something to catch the ashes under it. fire it up, feed it from the top. yeah. i figure i need a freezer, and i need a fridge, and i need to figure out how big of a battery bank i need, etc. looking for ideas... anyone? -dd | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
You will get lots of ideas but for your commercial type use, forklift batteries might be the ideal. They have 1/4" thick lead plates that can take a lot of abuse and a reputed 10 year life with a very high Amp Hour capacity. Unfortunately they are not cheap. Other people on the board have more experience with big inverters and adding additional insulation to refrigerators and freezers. There are propane freezers, I believe in Amish country. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
a honda goldwing muffler...I've got one I'll give you | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Your power requirements are very severe , if you loose the cooling you loose almost everything. I would use a Honda RV 6kw genset in a very well designed sound enclosure . Propane would be first choice as the stench is less and far less lethal. Diesel will be cheaper for months of operation , but far harder to make as quiet , and you Always have the Diesel exhaust problem. Any noisemaker would be vented thru the roof and for safty sake (your wallet) I would insatall a pair. They do NOT parallel easily so it probably would be better to have em just as backups for each other. With a HUGE battset and very modern marine refrigeration you could at least have silence at night. There are modern fridges and freezers built to operate on DC , but most suffer from still minimal insulation. Your'e going to need about R30 on all the box surfaces if the freezer isnt too large. I would suggest a look at Glacier Bay , and Frigiboat for sources of DC freezers that might work.The old standby $un Frost takes a lot of room , but is OTS and avilable as fridge freezer or combined. The usual barely insulated Sears house unit will usually need 100A a day (from 200a batt bank) . 2 or 3 days of both fridge & freezer would require thousands of pound$ of batts . You would probably be best just getting overnight , and all the drive time from a DC setup. Might take a look at yacht compactors , and see if you can reduce the bulk of the garbage with technoligy. FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
For the application you are contemplating, I would strongly suggest you go diesel for the gen-set. You already have a large supply of fuel available from the bus, and diesel gen sets can be quieted down till they are almost inaudible. An exhaust thru the roof will eliminate any odor problems. Years ago, some of the reefer vans utilized 10 kw gen sets that were very well constructed of high quality components. I do not know if anything like that is available used or not. Contact Dick Wright at WRICO in Eugene, Oregon He has lots of good ideas about anything electrical as well as how to make the unit quiet. Do not believe that they can not be made quiet. I have stood beside a bus with the gen set running and could not tell it was on. If it were me, I would invest in two gen sets, to have a backup, and forget about the batteries and inverters and all the other electronic systems. There would be no requirement for paralleling switchgear, as you could shut one down and start the other one up with no loss of critical data. All the larger yachts use this system for 24/7 power and if there was a better way, they would have it. | ||
| Bob Vandawalker (Rav221)
Rating: N/A |
I agree with Fast Fred, use a generator with a sound attenuated enclosure. We use trailer mounted units for emergency response. These units range from 40kw to 100kw, all diesel. You can stand next to one and carry on a normal conversation, all you hear is a loud hum and these are 6 cyl Cummins and John Deere diesels. We run these for days at a time without failures. These would be too big for your application, however I'm just making a point that diesel can be quieted. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Some sites may offer a bit of electric , but the problem is you probably draw more juice than the 15A offered. In the past I wrote a note on "living well in a dump" which deals with inexpensive load shedding. Parts from any Grainger catalog. The relays are very EZ to wire and set up and can be cascades. EG when the ice chipper goes on the freezer goes off , when the freezer goes on the fridge goes off. This way 3 (or more) items that need full line power (15A?) can cycle with the first in line getting first dibs at juice. Works seamlessly once set up. The hassles with diesel noisemakers is your in an open area with probably thousands of folks. BE SURE there will be many that are ofended by the diesel exhaust stench AND will complain to the management. Weather it's the folks in the next booth or the general public , when the breeze is wrong they will SHUT YOU DOWN! Hence the quiter lesser stench of propane (at least not poisonous) may keep the AIR POLICE away. FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I believe FF's nose is much more sensitive than most folks to what he calls "diesel stench". Even his preference to camping in the south forty at Jacks New Years gathering is evidence of this. There is nothing wrong with this of course, only that he seems to be more sensitive than most campers I have encountered. I have travelled to hundreds of various outdoor activities where people are running diesel gensets and the only time that odor was obnoxious, to me, was if the exhaust was at ground level. For all the others where the exhaust was out the roof and it never was a problem as far as anyone was concerned. The type of outings (2 days to 2 weeks) where Kevin is contemplating exhibiting are not the type of event where air or noise police are prevalent. Richard | ||
| R.C.Bishop
Rating: N/A |
Affable post, Richard....I agree with you about diesel odor, but can certainly understand the other guy's point of view. And he is adamant!.... ain't life grand? RCB | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"There is nothing wrong with this of course, only that he seems to be more sensitive than most campers I have encountered." Perhaps , but this discussion was about a carney at a PUBLIC fair. TRUST ME , the "General Public" is no where as accepting of the diesel stench as a bunch of campers running their Noisemakers all day to keep up a Cheapo house fridge. Different strokes for different Folks! But if the carney is shut down , he looses the day $$$,some fresh food and the site fee ISN'T refunded. FAST FRED | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
You may be totally correct. However at a campground you have people sitting outside beside your exhaust fumes for hours at a time. At a public fair, where no power is available, the only people that might complain would possible be another exhibitor and there is a good chance that they would be running a genset also. If not, you could possibly offer them some power to run their lights or fans with. Of course, there will never be a totally correct, 100% solution. I just do not feel that a large bank of batteries plus an inverter plus a genset is the correct solution. Especially with the large bank of batteries needed. And no way can you provide enough batteries for several days operation. | ||
| Jojo Colina (Du1jec)
Rating: N/A |
Have any of you guys been at a NASCAR event? Most of the trailers selling merchandise and believe me there are plenty of them are running diesel generators. Most I have seen were Onan Quiet Diesel. They all exhausted upward and as far as I know no one complains and the fans pack the aisles between these trailers. I live in Ramona, CA where we have a couple of country and craft fairs throughout the year and power is provided by rented diesel generators. These are usually quite close to vendor areas. The stacks are pointed up, but not very high. The smell of hotdogs overpower any smell the genset may produce. Again no complaints as far as I know since the events have been going on for years. There are also the diesel powered floodlights and no one seems to mind. A properly tuned diesel engine really does not emit any more objectionable fumes than any other genset if exhausted properly. There will always be the few who will complain no matter what you run and those people you just ignore. You could of course run batteries, solar charging and if the solar can't keep you running, run the genset to keep you going. This will lessen the running time of the genset. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Rating: N/A |
Still, how about propane freezers? In the long run it might be cheaper than running a generator 24/7. Then you could use an inverter and batteries for the shaver and turn on the generator when needed. Try these sites: http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm/dp/3100/sd/3103/ts/3431169 http://www.cetsolar.com/cc15f.htm http://www.thenaturalhome.com/gasappliances.htm 8.5 cu ft chest freezer uses 1.5 lbs propane a day. http://www.lpappliances.com/FrosTek.html Sure a lot more expensive up front, but the operating costs beat 20 plus gallons of diesel a day. How about a used vegie oil small diesel engine DC genetator like the Space Shuttle at Bussin' 2005. You could get your vegie oil from the french frie and elephant ear concesions. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"A properly tuned diesel engine really does not emit any more objectionable fumes than any other genset if exhausted properly." OSHA allows propane fork lifts ect inside closed buildings , The same folks FORBID gasolene or Diesel. Perhaps they found something (poisoned air) you don't mind? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
FF- When I drove the -diesel- tour bus "through a 2,500-foot-long tunnel, seven hundred feet below the surface; the cavern is longer than a football field and higher than a ten-story building." At the Northfield Ma. underground electric plant, they only permitted diesel vehicles to enter. Gas gave off too much carbon monoxide, and propane is highly explosive (most tunnels do not permit the carry of propane). The poster said: "does not emit any more objectionable fumes than any other genset". There's a difference between "objectionable", and what the EPA or OSHA considers "hazardous". Give either bureaucratic agency an inch, and they'll take the football field. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I really do not recall any proposed utilization inside a closed building where some inspector might object. Richard | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
Sorry Fred, but I vote for diesel. I have been to many a fair that had probably a dozen 100KW or larger diesel generators running 24/7 powering lights, cookers & the rides. The exhausts are upward, usually into upward ducted radiator air outlets. You can hear them but you don't smell them. At the bus rallys almost everyone has a stack on their genset with the result that you usually don't smell anything. The biggest benefit to diesel is that it is the most efficient fuel due to BTU content per gallon. Another plus is that it is already on board & easy to fill when you fuel the bus. Just do a good genset installation, roof level exhaust, super or multiple mufflers, radiator remote from the genset, good sound deadening foam & baffled air inlet & exhaust ducts for the genset. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
John, we ran into something like that down in the historic gold country in California. We took a tour into a working gold mine, and diesel was the only fuel they could use in the mine. I did notice that there were blowers set up to move air into the mine. When I was working longshoring in the warehouse, propane was the only fuel used there. I guess it just depends on the situation. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
Good point Tom. A few years ago we went on a gold mine tour. They used several diesel generators to power the mine and the buildings. They were not all that far away from the waiting area and I don't remember any exhaust smell. They had the generators in a shed but I could hear that they were 2 stroke detroits. | ||
| Phil Dumpster2 Rating: N/A |
Propane is used inside structures because the carbon monoxide emissions are very low and particulate emissions nonexistant. Gasoline isn't allowed because the CO and unburned hydrocarbon emissions are too high. Diesel isn't allowed because of particulates. In a mine, it is a bit different. Propane isn't used in mines because if it leaks out of its storage tank(s) it sinks to the lowest point, displacing oxygen. Aside from the fire hazard, it would asphyxiate those working at the bottom of the mine. The particulate emissions from a diesel engine are nothing compared to the generally dirty conditions found in a mine anyway, as long as the workers don't breathe them in. Most car ferries require RVs to close the main valve on the propane tanks because the machinery that moves the boat, and the people who run it, generally are below the car deck. | ||
| Phil Dumpster2 Rating: N/A |
For your generator, you might consider using a Lister type diesel engine driving a Chinese ST generator head through a belt drive. Check out www.utterpower.com and www.utterpower.com/listeroi.htm Lister diesel engines run at 600 rpm and are very quiet. They have two big flywheels to provide the "oomph" needed to start big inductive loads, allowing you to get away with a smaller generator head. A Lister single which puts out 5 to 6 horses would work great driving a 3 to 5kw generator head. Best of all, even though these are tall engines, your Scenicruiser has bays big enough to accomodate one. Plus, they just look and sound neat when running. You'd probably want to run it with the bay door open so people could see it in operation, which probably wouldn't hurt your sales one bit. | ||
| Christopher Goodwin (Cgoodwin)
Rating: N/A |
"i do medieval reinactment on weekends." You have answered your own questions: Salt, dry and pack the meat in Kegs. Build a coop for the chickens and the eggs are taken care of. As for the paper, or should we say "Parchment", don't use it. Get a stack of wooden plates, you can reuse them, you will then only need 3 large pots on a stand over a fire. One for wash, one for rinse and one for sanitize, just like the military. Not only may you reduce the garbage and cost of doing business it might be more authentic. Of course you would need to thach the roof of the bus. Chris | ||
| motorcoach1 Rating: N/A |
had a Servel worked good and looked at Danby out of Canada that seams to be a power saver too |