| Author | Message | ||
| taffycandyman Rating: N/A |
Has anyone changed out their oil bath cleaner for K & N or something of the likes. I have an 81 MCI 9 with 8v 71. Thanks | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
An oil bath cleaner may be more work than desired, but it's one hell of a lot cheaper to maintain! | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
TCM, I once considered changing to the K&N filter, but after a run across the desert of Southern Nevada into California during a wind storm I changed my mind. Jim Tupel (also an 8V71) and I drove for about 3 1/2 hours in that mess. He shook about 3 heapiing tablespoons of dust and sand from his K&N filter and I envied how easy it was to clean. Then (dreading the mess) we cleaned my 8V71's stock oil bath ang got almost a teacup of crud. About twice what the other filter caught. Needless to say, messy as it is to service, I still have my oil bath. Just remember that it needs regular servicing, and maintaining the oil level to be effective. Cheers...JJ | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
Jmc9- I disagree with you. The oil bath takes over three quarts of oil to fill it, not to mention the solvent/surfactants to clean it properly, and over a period of time will rack up far more dollars than the one-time outlay for the K&N. I feel one must also consider the cost of cleaning (or discarding) clothing worn while working on it. If you are the least bit careless trying to lower it over the edge of the blower housing, you may end up wearing the whole 3 qts. (BTDT) Cheers... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Well serviced K&N give good "no Silicates" oil samples here in sand mine Florida. Only need service once a year (Max). Works for me, FAST FRED | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Remember a while back, this discussion came up and even K&N admitted that their filter was more restrictive and captured less dirt than the oil bath. Really boils down to if you cannot stand to get your hands dirty and don't mind the restriction and dirt flowing into your engine, throw the oil bath away! John Jewett got it right! | ||
| Sojourner (Jjimage)
Rating: N/A |
Filter test in regard of K&N, foam and paper. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm Paper is use in high mile (100,000) warranty car & trucks. The dirtier the better filter but flow is reduce. However as long as vacuum restrict (AFG30 AFG37R AFG38D) gage is within limit…keep driving. http://www.baldwinfilter.com/lit/tt03-2.pdf It not a gimmick but a must have to save on fuel while driving. Another word more air-flow the better. I use AFG38D in engine compartment & paper filter. However dash model is better. Air Flow filters housing spec; http://www.baldwinfilter.com/products/airhousing.pdf Oil bath is good cleaner but restrict air-flow when cold-thick oil enter mesh. Or very cold morning…lower-air-flow gets up thorough mesh. Working with my dad in 40’s to 50’s on farm….oil bath does restrict flow cause to use more fuel (gasoline) on freezing morning unless change to lighter SAE rate oil. FWIW Sojourn for Christ, Jerry | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Of course, moisture works wonders on paper/foam filters. Good heavy downpours; all that vacuum pulling it into the filter.... vacuuming up a puddle with the Oreck... Just more air flow restriction to deal with.... Change the filter. And the paper filters cost how much each? For a bus or truck company, paying a mechanic to clean the oil bath filter equates to time and $$$$. The paper element is faster to change, equating to easier maintenance and a much less expensive work operation. And..... the easier it is, the more likely it won't be "overlooked" during normal maintenance schedules. For the private user? | ||
| Doug Wotring Rating: N/A |
keep in mind in todays business few trucking company keeps their trucks long enough to worry about the downfalls of paper over the benefit of the quick change/cost factors. Paper filters got introduced into commecial trucks and buses about the same time Mechanics disapeared and Part Changers showed up Outside of the time and mess that the oil bath's provide for in Maint I think there is no reason to change to paper. Keep in mind every time you clean your K&N you increase it's porosity.....read let more dirt through. | ||
| Earl-8-Ky Rating: N/A |
I changed my filther to dry type filter about two years ago. I used 4 heavy duty paper filters from NAPA. They measure 5and 1/2 inches tall. This gives me 22 inches of filther. I removed the filther from my MC8 8V71 and took all of the screen out of it.You would not believe how much crud was on the screen. The Napa filters are stacked one on top of the other with a small bead of silicone between them to seal them together. My oil bath filther had around 1and 1/2 gal of oil in it. I had cleand it several times before changing over to the dry type. I installed a vacumm gage on the filter and have ohly had to change the paper filters one time. The best part is the cost is less than 40$ I can tell a difference in the way the engine runs too. | ||
| Doug Wotring Rating: N/A |
Earl, I have no doubt your engine breathes better though paper but this in in direct corolation with the ammount of air it is letting through. Sucking air through a hose is easier than sucking fluid through a hose....which is basically what the oil bath is doing albeit a big hose. No doubt the oil bath screens in your bus were likely not serviced regularly. Having grown up servicing oil bath filters in GM charter coaches as well as the 04 I own presently (one of the ones I serviced as a boy) if a paper filter caught all the crap that the oil bath does you would need to change it every 10k miles or sooner as it would get clogged. would be interesting to do a test: Two coaches that travel together, one with paper and other with oil batch....... vacume the dirt off the paper and weigh and dry the crud in the oil bath and see what the difference is. I suspect the only time you may be getting better filtration on paper is at idle when you are not drawing oil up into the screen as much | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A |
Sojourner, I've had the "Bob is the Oil Guy" website on my favorites list for over a year now. After reading some of the tests, I changed my oil filter brand. I had not read that test yet, thanks for posting the info. Ed Jewett | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
up here in the pacific northwest we have a bit of a temperamental mountain called mt st helens... all the old time diesel guys around here are telling me that when she blew up (throwing tons of ash in the air) that within a year, everything that wasn't running oil bath filters pretty much needed a rebuild, and the oil bath machines were fine, albeit maintenance was a chore. i'm putting a series 60 in my scenicruiser. it curretly has an 8v-71 in it. question: can i use the oil bath filters built into the bus, or do i need to build bigger ones? (and if so, how much bigger?) the cruiser has 4 in the rear. i've thought about moving them / building a custom housing for them, elsewhere, to make it easier to clean them, etc. but before i put too much design energy into that, i need to know how big they need to be  i actually have some space at the rear corners to put in 2 that are about the size of a 35 gallon oil barrel, and they would be very easy to get to... thoughts? -dd | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Doug, Mabye weigh each complete filter assembly clean and then dirty. Should be very revealing. Richard | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
Engines today, both diesel and gasoline last far longer than in the past. Increases in metalurgy helped, but the real key is far better air filtration and far better oil. Sorry but I don't know of anything today that uses oil bath air cleaners. As to K&N, I found them more trouble to clean than oil bath. I've gone back to paper. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
I feel some do not understood the oil bath filter. It merely turns the air direction 180 degrees at the top of the oil, the heavier particles of dirt cannot turn that fast and are given a final bath as they plunge straight into the oil. There is no "sucking air thru oil" or such going on, that restriction only applies to the paper kind. GMC offered a paper filter on its 4905 models, fleets avoided them like the plague. Throw some water into the intake of both kinds, and watch the paper filter engine quit in a cloud of black smoke, while the oil bath continure running. | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Rating: N/A |
I was enjoying the varoius test on the"bob is the oil guy" site untill I noticed that Schaffers products seem to be so highly regarded...I'd never heard of them. TILL I clicked on the sponsors page http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/sponsors.htm | ||
| Doug wotring Rating: N/A |
may be mistaken but I do beleive there is some lifting of oil that goes on in the Gm Oil Bath Filter system When the oil level is full to the proper depth in the pan the Filter element will touch the oil. The Fresh air is brought down the outside of the Filter elemment tube and then draw up through the Filter element. If you remove an oil pan and filter element right after shutdown there will be a very noticable ammount of Oil all the way to the top of the Filter element | ||
| Doug Wotring Rating: N/A |
JOhn you thoughs on the Oil Bath using 3 quarts of oil. if the oil is changed after sitting the solids will settle out. the "Clean" oil can be poured off and reused so maybe you need a quart not all three. No need to replace it all | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Kevin - Why not get another oil bath filter and "T" the intake, enabling both filters? More air intake never hurts! | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
The pro and con has always seemed to be that if you are idling up a dusty road, the air is not coming with enough velocity to properly clean the air in an oil bath, whereas a paper choker filter will filter at any speed, even better at slow speed than higher, as at high speed more dust will suck thru the paper. John, you might just have the best answer? | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
It'd be nice to be right about something for once in my life, Don. I had been hoping it'd be about something a bit more philosophical than an air cleaner. Kinda' sucks. (Oh, HAR de HAR HAR) | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
Paper filters came out because they are easy to change and less messy. The filter companies make a lot of money. With oil they make nothing. The oil in an oil bath filter is carried partly up onto the screen and then flows back down. At low speeds there isn't as much air entering so not as much filtering is needed. Idling is not recommended at any time for a DD. I wish I had oil bath air cleaners on all my vehicles because they are better. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
i know on my cruiser i have 4 big round canisters. inside these is a slightly smaller cylinder. the air pulls down the outside of this cylinder, through the oil, and then up the inside of it, and then into the engine. the inner cylinder is filled with what looks like a giant stainless steel pot scrubber the whole thing to me looks like it won't allow any big air bubbles through it at all... i guess i'm not sure why idling up a road would effect anything, as the air still has to pull through the oil, if anything it seems like the opposite would be true. that and i don't think i've ever idled my bus anywhere so how much more or less air does a series 60 pull than an 8v71? -dd | ||
| Bill K. Rating: N/A |
Look at what most of you construction equip. has. a precleaner and a two stage paper filter, these machines work in the dirt. A good paper filter is good enough for me. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Rating: N/A |
The engine needs air to make horsepower, more HP = more air required. If I had to guess, I'd go with an air ratio equal to the HP ratio. (but I know it's not that simple) The higher the air flow thru a filter, the higher the pressure drop. But since the series 60 is a turbocharged 4 stroke,I would think that it could tolerate a higher pressure drop across the filters before you notice a loss of power. Just my 2 cents kyle4501 | ||
| Jim Bob Rating: N/A |
It would seem to me that a 4 cycle engine would use about half as much air than a two cycle of equal displacement at the same RPM. If this is so then the Scenicruiser's original air intakes could feed about 1168 cubic inches or about 18.6 litres. A 60 series of about 12.5 litres should be fine. And usually the 60 series engines are set up for about 12-1400 RPMs compared to 2150 of the two stroke. What do some of you DD guys think? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
If you guys would just look at the chart on the Baldwin filter website Jerry (Sojourner) mentioned, you'd see the following: 350 hp 6V92TA @ 2100 rpm = 1145 cfm 450 hp 12.7L S-60 @ 2100 rpm = 1045 cfm 450 hp 8V92TA @ 2100 rpm = 1590 cfm Altho it's not listed, the 270 hp 6-71T @ 2100 rpm (which is roughly the same output as a N-60 injector-equipped 8V71 @ the same rpm), the cfm = 865. This compares fairly close to the calculated cfm of 806 using Baldwin's formula. FWIW, RJ | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin, I don't think the air goes through the oil at the bottom, not sure how that volume of air could ever flow through oil. It has been a while since I read how an oil bath cleaner works but I'm pretty sure the air flows over the top of the oil and pulls some of the surface oil up onto the screen. That is the reason it is important not to overfill the bottom bowl. If I'm wrong about this someone will quickly correct me. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Nah, you are correct Gus. | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
okay, well if the oil bath filter relies on "oil on the mesh is sticky" and that's it, it doesn't seem like it's going to be that good relative to something that actually blocks the dirt from entering in the first place.. (paper filter?) but then, oil sure attracts dirt, *sigh* i think the first thing i'm going to do is figure out how to pull my intake air from the roofline. -dd | ||
| t gojenola
Rating: N/A |
I would not assume that all oil bath filters are the same - in design, construction, or materials. But in the case of (at least) the 4104 and 4106, Kevin is indeed correct. The element, made of stainless steel mesh, is held in place inside an inner sleeve. The sleeve extends about 2" below the element and well below the level of the oil. Inside the sleeve and below the element there is an inverted baffle resembling a perforated pie tin sitting on the bottom of the outer shell and completely submerged in oil. The air is drawn through the oil and baffle before entering the element. I suspect the baffle is designed to trap most of the dirt before it can even get to the element. It is also logical to assume that there is suficient turbulence to introduce an oily mist to the element itself, to catch whatever makes it that far. Be that as it may, I have changed my own to dry (Donaldson) elements -not for reasons of their respective filtration properties, but for matters of convenience. tg | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
" but for matters of convenience" For info on how often the oil bath should be cleaned , its in Da Book. The recomendation that it should be changed after a dusty road , was enough for me to switch to K&N. After all many campgrounds are dusty , and with the engine at idle , the air velocity is far too slow to toss the fines into the oil pit , so they go straight into YOUR engine. What was fine engineering for 1600rpm at 60mph on the slab , may not suit the DIFFERENT use we put coaches to. FAST FRED | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Rating: N/A |
t gojenola, I think all oil bath cleaners operate on pretty much the same principal. Oil is pushed(sucked?) up onto the screen by the air flow. This oil displacement puts the bottom of the sleeve above the oil surface. When the engine stops the oil flows back into the bowl along with the dirt it has picked up and the sleeve is once again below the oil surface. Obviously the oil level is very important for this system to work properly. As I said before, there is no way that volume of air could flow through oil. | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Rating: N/A |
I have a MC-7 with 4 oil type air cleaners, the stock ones. I am going from a 8V71N to a 8V71T, will I be able to pull enough air through these or should I change to a large dry filter? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Larry, if you're going to drive the same speeds and the engines have similar efficiencies, then the air flow will be similar. The air filter is designed to be effective in a wide range of air flows. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Rating: N/A |
Must be that all those farm tractors with oil bath air cleaners had a helluva time of it with walking speed plowing and dusty bush hogging...gee, my 8N Ford engine only lasted fifty years! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
That's cuz you got "special" dirt, Chuckles. | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
No John, I understand Chuck never could get the darned thing started! Does wonders for engine life. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Hey Don.... Didja' get that: "gee, my 8N Ford engine only lasted fifty years!" Musta' been plowin' the back 40 of the womb, huh? HAR HAR (Hey Chuckles, when you gettin' me a torque wrench?) | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Rating: N/A |
Wish I could have bought that tractor new..... Coulda been that I was pre-filtering the dirt through my t shirt! And, I gonna tell my momma abut the 40 acre womb remark! Hooooweeee!!!!! Don't make her come down there!! | ||
| Dave Wilson
Rating: N/A |
My experience with oil bath versus papper cartrige ran oil bath for several years on my first 9 former hound 600 was talked into converting to papper dusted the shortly after in the north where you are dealy with dust oil is the way to go for sure both 9 i have in service are on oil bath. |