| Author |
Message |
Peg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:43 am: | |
So...Now that the bus is safe in NY, is storing it for the winter going to cause further damage to the still gunky fuel tank, or to the generator's tank? Is it better to run the generator or engine until they are empty (can't be too much $$in a generator tank, but the bus...!), or is it bad to have empty tanks- or is there another option? How can you clean a dirty tank like we have in the bus? I don't want to cause damage to the bus now that it's finally up and running, even if it's not going anywhere. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:48 am: | |
You worry too much! |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 5:57 am: | |
A dose of Bio Bor will solve any "bug " hassles, but 90% of the problem is old diesel returns to ashphalt bit by bit.
The only cure is a great filter and "polishing"the fuel by pumping it out of the tank , thru a filter and return.
This will clean the fuel for use , but gunk stuck to the tank sides/bottom will not be touched.
Running the engine for nothing does far more harm than sitting.
DD publishes a procedure for engines that are to be out of service for over 30 days.
Filter the fuel , and burn it in an oil furnace, come spring have the tank steam cleaned .
FAST FRED |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:16 am: | |
This will further a big debate, but.......
An empty tank will rust. I always filled my tanks before tucking
away for an extended period of time, gas or diesel. And a full tank
won't provide area for much condensation to build.
Fuel isn't going to "go bad" after three to six months of sitting.
Trucks aren't shipped brand new with empty tanks, nor are
used buses sitting on sales lots for months upon months, with
empty tanks. If your bus is going to sit for some years, adding
an anti-fungal additive may be wise; fungus does grow in
diesel fuel over long periods of time (years).
Tossing out, or using $3+ per gallon diesel fuel in your furnace,
is almost hysterical. We all manage to waste money on our
crazy project one way or the other, but Jee-ee-ee-ee-zues...
Dat der's liquid gold youse dumpin'! |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 8:52 am: | |
Diesel fuel typically does not go bad over long periods of time if the tank is kept full. Large engine gensets that are used for standby power typically have very large fuel tanks and unless there is an extended power outage they go for many years without any change of fuel. Only a small amount added annually to make up for what is used during monthly test runs. Just fill it up and don't worry.
Gasoline is another thing. Fill the tank, add a stabalizer, shut the fuel to the genset off and run the engine dry of fuel.
All the above is based on my actual experience.
Richard |
Dale Hendricks
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:16 am: | |
Richard Bowyer, In your previous posts somewhere I believe you mentioned something about flashing a generator to get it working again. Would you mind sharing that with me . I have 3 5 kw generators that all check out good for wiring but will not produce any electricity. Thank you very much for your help. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:28 am: | |
With engine running, flash the field by touching the + and - field leads with a 12 volt battery. just a touch. There should be a small arc when you touch them and the output AC voltage should come up to normal immediately.
Alternate method. With engine running, back feed the 120 volt genset output with 120 volts from the utility. Again, just a flash.
If your problem was a loss of residual magnetism in the exciter, then this will restore it to normal operation.
Richard |
Sojourner (Jjimage)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:03 pm: | |
Try to find a hand diaphragm pump similar to this http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productI d=31616&R=31616 or anything to transfer fuel.
You can purchase or rent or borrow one from excavating company.
Park your bus so left side is 4 inch or so higher to slope tank toward filler side. Then do what FAST FRED said…..only suggested using hand pump into 55 gal drum. After mostly drained with large inlet hose then change to smaller hose with weight on suction end (whatever can fit thorough filler hole so it can roll to lowest point) to get the last gallon removed.
To see what coming out of fuel tank add inline (inlet) a one quart or larger “see-thru” filter unit without cartridge. While pumping, look for water at bottom. Stop pumping when half full to dump bowl before continue.
Now pump back in bus’s tank via thorough “Fuel pump filter” from farms store or any fuel-oil dealer.
It all depend how long crud been there but think Bio Bor might be all you ever need for the next 2 tank full.
Be nice if you can spend $$ for a 382 filer unit.(after above work done)
http://www.davcotec.com/fp382.htm
FWIW
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:59 pm: | |
Not to argue with the gurus, but just citing an example of old fuel being used...
When we bought our bus in February, it had been sitting with a full tank of fuel since 1990. I did nothing special to treat the old fuel, other than change out the filters before we left on our first trip.
Almost 10,000 miles and a thousand gallons later, I've replaced the filters two more times. She didn't lose power or anything, I just thought it to be prudent. I noticed that the primary was pretty dirty when I'd change it.
Maybe I was lucky, or am still on course for a future fuel system failure... but that's what I did.
Just my experience, and YMMV,
Brian Brown
PD4106-1175
Longmont, CO USA |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:06 pm: | |
I should add that the bus also had a gasoline genny and tank, and its fifty gallons of gas were varnished out and useless. The genset was badly gummed up and never really got over it, despite my cleaning/rebuilding the carb and intake system.
Not to mention, siphoning off and recycling fifty gallons of old gas at the County HazMat place was NOT fun.
I've since replaced the genset with a diesel and never looked back.
Peg, if yours is a gas genny, run the carb. float dry and treat the gas with Stabil or similar. Or go out and exercise it every couple of weeks (and still treat the gas). Nothing worse than gummed-up gas.
I can still smell that varnished gas...
bb |
Peg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 6:06 pm: | |
Both the engine and the generator run on diesel. We probably won't be moving the bus again until thaw, although I am sure filling a generator wouldn't be as difficult to fill as the bus's tank. As far as filtering and cleaning, if it isn't any more trouble to the bus to do this retroactively rather than preemptively, I am sure the last thing Aracelio will want to do is try to filter diesel out in the cold. I have read that biodiesel is a natural solvent that will dissolve all gunk sitting in either tank or engine, so that often many filters are clogged as it "cleans" out the tank. We ultimately think the ability to use bio would be an advantage, but I have read that you need to either have an engine/fuel warmer, or use 2 tanks, one petrodiesel to prime and start the engine, as well as to flush it out before shutting it off, and the second tank with the bio which you switch to while the engine is hot and running. The other thing I read is that the bio can eat through rubber hoses, so that they all need to be replaced with synthetic ones. It looks like some of the davco products are designed to help biodiesel use. Hmmm.... Well, maybe I worry too much. I can't help it now, I went ahead and trusted someone's word about this bus, and now I can't help worrying about everything since we got turned on our heads over it. |
JR
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:54 pm: | |
I agree with John MC9 that you worry to much. The fuel isn't going to be any worse in 4 months than it is right now. Not much grows in the winter. I had fuel in my tank for 2 plus years and it ran without difficulty. Didn't do anything but occasionally turn the bus around so we could work on the other side. My barn is width and height challenged.
Whatever condition your tank is in now is what you'll have in the spring thaw.
If your tanks are crud...plan on pulling and cleaning. That's going to be a big job.
Another thing is to leave the engine alone, as in don't crank it a let it idle for long periods.
A diesel won't warm up without a load, and if you have a 2 stroke you'll just fuel up the oil. How did your tanks get in such poor shape? May be cheaper to invest in a good, large, cleanable prefilter for the engine. I'd sure keep the fuel for future use. May filter it, but I'd use it. JR |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:07 pm: | |
Hey Peg -
"I went ahead and trusted someone's word about this bus,
and now I can't help worrying about everything since we
got turned on our heads over it."
I'll wager that there isn't a soul on this (or any) bus board,
that hasn't tossed 10x more into fixing the bus, than what
was originally thought it would cost.
A reply to one of my first posts to this board way back when
[random harp chords], said that I now owned a big toy and
I should expect to lay out a lot of big dollars to play with it.
Truer words were never typed. Owning and using a retired
commercial bus is costly and very, very time consuming. You
now own a piece of heavy equipment. Unless you were in a
business that used heavy equipment and are totally familiar
with this type of vehicle, expect to pay dearly for your experience.
It comes at you fast, and it doesn't come cheap.
And that Peg, is why they call us "nuts". Say goodbye to
sanity and say hello to your new family addition. It's like
a 11 ton teenager that won't get out of the bathroom when
you have to pee.
Enjoy it while you can! "Don't worry; Be happy". |
Username
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 8:15 am: | |
Peg's conceptions of biodiesel are somewhat flawed:
- Yes, it does a great job of cleaning tanks (and fouling filters in the process).
- Yes, it also rots older types of rubber (not only hoses but gaskets, etc.); you need to use parts made from newer synthetics, e.g. Viton. Be advised that the rotting effect may be caused by unreacted methanol/ethanol (one of the ingredients used to convert the raw oil feedstock into biodiesel); it may be the case that residual methanol is less prevalent in commercially produced biodiesel than in homebrew product.
- No, you don't need to mess around with multiple tanks, etc. - unless you're talking about cold weather operation. (biodiesel's cloud point is higher than petrodiesel's - around 32F, and antigel / winterizing chemicals designed for petrodiesel may not work as well or as consistently with biodiesel).
Peg's confusion is with biodiesel vs. Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) and/or Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO). These VOs have much higher viscosity than either bio- or petro- diesel, and require preheating in order to thin them out to the point where they will work with engines designed for petrodiesel.
Biodiesel, on the other hand, is the result of a chemical process (transesterification) that removes the glycerin from VO feedstocks and thus lowers their viscosity, eliminating the need for fuel heating except in the aforementioned subfreezing environments. |
Peg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:06 pm: | |
Yeah, well, If we ever wanted to start it once it got below freezing...plus I thought I read that bad things happen to the engine if bio residue sits in the engine once it gets below 32, hence the concept for the pre and post flush. But, I am just investigating this, I don't claim that I know much, or that I didn't misread what I thought I read. Okay, so I worry too much, and I am indulging a lifelong fantasy to have a house on wheels, and my husband's similar fantasy to have a big diesel engine in said house, and it's a big toy with big expenses and problems. I don't even need a bus for friends and family to call us nuts, they already knew we were. I am sure I'll feel better after I get to SEE it. I have seen a few bad pictures, listened to my husband's poor quality description of what I care about (the living space and it's interior design) but I have not experienced this bus yet other than spending the money, making dozens of phone calls to solve lots of problems, and hearing my husband complain about it excessively until just a few days ago. I have figured out that it will all be okay, but since everyone here seems willing to share their combined experience and wisdom, I feel it's only natural to keep asking questions- maybe getting them answered before I get to the problem might be nice for a change.
How did the tank get in such poor shape? We don't know. The former life the seller believed or at least claimed this bus had is an illusion shattered for us by Luke at U.S. Coach, who was able by VIN# to tell us that it was not originally the pet project of a GM executive (that's what the seller claimed) but a Trailways bus. I think the seller bought it at an auction, and we will probably never know what the history of the bus is, really. All I can tell is that somebody spent a lot of time doing a conversion, and it looks like they didn't finish it. The title appears to have been signed over by someone other than the registered owner, for him (power of attorney?), so our guess has been that perhaps he became ill or died, and his relatives sold it. Thanks again for all the info and advice, everybody. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 12:19 am: | |
I can hear the previous owner now:
"Power of attorney, by reason of insanity. Sign the title and auction that thing"
That line that went:
"I don't even need a bus for friends and family to call us nuts,
they already knew we were." Was great! It hits this home also.
When we mentioned the bus last year, over a family dinner, a
hush fell over the table.... I thought we were saying grace again..
or maybe the dog passed gas... All eyes gravitated towards each
individual's plate and we sensed strongly, the discomfort of
a dozen people trying to stifle hysterical laughter. The tension
finally broke, when my brother-in-law spit peas across the room..
We still don't talk about it, and here it is, Thanksgiving again...
I may eat in the unfinished bus shell this year.
It gets better, Peg! It really does!
(and the check is in the mail) |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:49 am: | |
How do you know the fuel tank is all gunky? One filter clogged does not mean that the whole tank is gunked up. That is assuming a lot, I think.
It has now been driven a few hundred miles without any further problems I think. If that is so, QUIT WORRYING! Even if it has been sitting for a couple of years or so, it does not mean that you have fuel problems. Relax and enjoy. You will probably find something else to worry about without looking too far. LOL.
Be sure and install an engine pre-heater of some kind if you want to start it in cold weather. If you are lucky, it has a Webasto installed that will do the job.
Richard |
Peg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 10:30 pm: | |
OK John-LOL-a lot!
It does have a Webasto. I don't know if it's got anything to do with the engine at this time, but it was on the specs list off the ebay auction. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 9:00 am: | |
If it has a Webasto you can almost be certain that it incorporates an engine preheat system and you can start her at 20 below if your little heart should so desire.
Richard |
Peg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 11:08 pm: | |
Yaay! |
|